Texas

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Texas

Postby rickgrimes69 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:39 pm

philosoraptor wrote:If you want D.C.,Texas at anywhere north of $100K is not a good investment.

ironbmike
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Re: Texas

Postby ironbmike » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:16 am

byronmullens wrote:Why not use Texas offer to negotiate bigger scholly at W&M?


I plan on doing this, along with my GWU scholarship. I need to call W&M's financial office to negotiate over phone, so I'm waiting for all my scholarship offers to come in before I do it.

ironbmike
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Re: Texas

Postby ironbmike » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:20 am

rickgrimes69 wrote:
philosoraptor wrote:If you want D.C.,Texas at anywhere north of $100K is not a good investment.


Seriously? Texas seems* like a good bet. Strong employment numbers.
Last edited by ironbmike on Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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untar614
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Re: Texas

Postby untar614 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:29 am

rickgrimes69 wrote:
philosoraptor wrote:If you want D.C.,Texas at anywhere north of $100K is not a good investment.


Living expenses for 3 years pretty much naywhere are gonna be at minumum close to 50k. So would you just not pay a sigle dollar of tuition anywhere outside T14?

ironbmike wrote:Seriously? Texas needs like a good bet. Strong employment numbers.


If i'm reading the lst reports correctly, they're better than georgetown's


Just to give some reference OP, I have a scholarhsip at texas a little better than yours, but not much. I'm going to see if I can get it up to a full ride, possibly with a june retake. looking at lawschoolnumbers, it seems like they were handing out full rides to anyone with a 3.6+/173+; i'm a bit under 3.8 and got a 172, so i may have missed an auto-full-ride by 1 question, haha. If I can get the full ride I'll probably go there. If not, I may not go, but that's because I have several other possibilities I'm considering as well, and not just law schools.

ironbmike
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Re: Texas

Postby ironbmike » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:37 am

untar614 wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
philosoraptor wrote:If you want D.C.,Texas at anywhere north of $100K is not a good investment.


Living expenses for 3 years pretty much naywhere are gonna be at minumum close to 50k. So would you just not pay a sigle dollar of tuition anywhere outside T14?

ironbmike wrote:Seriously? Texas needs like a good bet. Strong employment numbers.


If i'm reading the lst reports correctly, they're better than georgetown's


Just to give some reference OP, I have a scholarhsip at texas a little better than yours, but not much. I'm going to see if I can get it up to a full ride, possibly with a june retake. looking at lawschoolnumbers, it seems like they were handing out full rides to anyone with a 3.6+/173+; i'm a bit under 3.8 and got a 172, so i may have missed an auto-full-ride by 1 question, haha. If I can get the full ride I'll probably go there. If not, I may not go, but that's because I have several other possibilities I'm considering as well, and not just law schools.


Interesting and good to know. They accept June retakes for scholarship purposes?

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Re: Texas

Postby BigZuck » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:47 am

The developing consensus seems to be that 100K at UT is not worth it (with the exception of someone who went there and did well. He thinks it is worth it). So what is a reasonable price to pay? 90K? 80K? Less?

FWIW if OP goes to UT at that price he would be paying about what rad lulz paid for his Vandy JD. If rad overpaid then fair enough but if the "retake or don't go" king paid an acceptable price then I think the OP should feel ok about going to UT for around 100K.

Also, rickgrimes: you say UT for 100K is not worth it but I assume that you think the 150K you will pay at Duke is worth it. What is the calculus to make these kinds of decisions? I'm genuinely interested. Because these are the types of schools at the prices I am considering. I was thinking that paying 40-60k less at a UT/Vandy/UCLA/USC type school (with ties to the market it places in) versus a lower t14 might be worth it but you're causing me to rethink that. What am I overlooking or miscalculating?

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untar614
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Re: Texas

Postby untar614 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:48 am

ironbmike wrote:
untar614 wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
philosoraptor wrote:If you want D.C.,Texas at anywhere north of $100K is not a good investment.


Living expenses for 3 years pretty much naywhere are gonna be at minumum close to 50k. So would you just not pay a sigle dollar of tuition anywhere outside T14?

ironbmike wrote:Seriously? Texas needs like a good bet. Strong employment numbers.


If i'm reading the lst reports correctly, they're better than georgetown's


Just to give some reference OP, I have a scholarhsip at texas a little better than yours, but not much. I'm going to see if I can get it up to a full ride, possibly with a june retake. looking at lawschoolnumbers, it seems like they were handing out full rides to anyone with a 3.6+/173+; i'm a bit under 3.8 and got a 172, so i may have missed an auto-full-ride by 1 question, haha. If I can get the full ride I'll probably go there. If not, I may not go, but that's because I have several other possibilities I'm considering as well, and not just law schools.


Interesting and good to know. They accept June retakes for scholarship purposes?


No clue. Gonna ask when I visit, but if not there, it may help elsewhere anyway.

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philosoraptor
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Re: Texas

Postby philosoraptor » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:58 am

ironbmike wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
philosoraptor wrote:If you want D.C.,Texas at anywhere north of $100K is not a good investment.


Seriously? Texas seems* like a good bet. Strong employment numbers.
Yeah, not sure what Rick's talking about or what he knows about UT. Texas can be a good deal even for a high price, especially if you have in-state ties. But anecdotally speaking, it's tough to get D.C. from here, whether it's firms or government or public interest. Weirdly, LST says 16 people from the class of 2011 got jobs in D.C., but I can't think of a single classmate who's already got something lined up there.

ironbmike
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Re: Texas

Postby ironbmike » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:00 am

philosoraptor wrote:
ironbmike wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
philosoraptor wrote:If you want D.C.,Texas at anywhere north of $100K is not a good investment.


Seriously? Texas seems* like a good bet. Strong employment numbers.
Yeah, not sure what Rick's talking about or what he knows about UT. Texas can be a good deal even for a high price, especially if you have in-state ties. But anecdotally speaking, it's tough to get D.C. from here, whether it's firms or government or public interest. Weirdly, LST says 16 people from the class of 2011 got jobs in D.C., but I can't think of a single classmate who's already got something lined up there.


Well like I said, my heart isn't set on DC. Pretty much wherever I find an opportunity when I graduate is where I'll go. Texas is fine. DC is only an option because I have connections here, I didn't just pick it out of a hat.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Texas

Postby rickgrimes69 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:04 pm

philosoraptor wrote:
ironbmike wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
philosoraptor wrote:If you want D.C.,Texas at anywhere north of $100K is not a good investment.


Seriously? Texas seems* like a good bet. Strong employment numbers.
Yeah, not sure what Rick's talking about or what he knows about UT. Texas can be a good deal even for a high price, especially if you have in-state ties. But anecdotally speaking, it's tough to get D.C. from here, whether it's firms or government or public interest. Weirdly, LST says 16 people from the class of 2011 got jobs in D.C., but I can't think of a single classmate who's already got something lined up there.

No, you are.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... =employers

Bro, only 70% of C/O 2011 even got lawyer jerbs, and a full 10% are unemployed. $100k still costs $1100 / mo in loan payments for 10 years and that's gonna suck to pay off on a shitlaw salary, and only 30% got Biglaw or Fed Clerkship. Plus, OP doesn't have ties and that is a big factor. $100k+ for UT without ties is objectively a huge risk.

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Re: Texas

Postby philosoraptor » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:24 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:Bro, only 70% of C/O 2011 even got lawyer jerbs, and a full 10% are unemployed. $100k still costs $1100 / mo in loan payments for 10 years and that's gonna suck to pay off on a shitlaw salary, and only 30% got Biglaw or Fed Clerkship. Plus, OP doesn't have ties and that is a big factor. $100k+ for UT without ties is objectively a huge risk.
I think you misunderstand me. I'm not trying to argue that Texas is a great deal at any price, far from it. All I'm saying is that not everybody paying more than $100K for UT is necessarily making a bad or irrational investment. Of course it's a huge risk -- every 0L has a 50% chance of ending up in the bottom half of the class as a 1L. Strong ties (to Texas or other good markets) help mitigate the risk, as do career goals that align with where the school places well. The risk may be higher for OP than for someone with ties to Texas.

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Re: Texas

Postby crit_racer » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:32 pm

philosoraptor wrote:
ironbmike wrote:
rickgrimes69 wrote:
philosoraptor wrote:If you want D.C.,Texas at anywhere north of $100K is not a good investment.


Seriously? Texas seems* like a good bet. Strong employment numbers.
Yeah, not sure what Rick's talking about or what he knows about UT. Texas can be a good deal even for a high price, especially if you have in-state ties. But anecdotally speaking, it's tough to get D.C. from here, whether it's firms or government or public interest. Weirdly, LST says 16 people from the class of 2011 got jobs in D.C., but I can't think of a single classmate who's already got something lined up there.


I'm a 2L at UT so I can give my experience w/ DC. Mind you this is all personal anecdotes. I have 3 friends who are going to DC firms (there are probably others, but honestly I don't talk to that many people about their plans). 2 of them are not even on law review and going to great firms in DC. It can be done, but people are correct in telling you to be very realistic about your goals. New York doesn't appear to be any harder than Dallas or Houston really (I know a lot of ppl going to NY who are not on law review).

I have a very similar financial aid package to you and don't regret going to UT. Obviously that's b/c things turned out OK for me, but even if they didn't I think there are a lot worse positions to be in than paying 100-150k for UT. Best of luck

ironbmike
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Re: Texas

Postby ironbmike » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:37 pm

crit_racer wrote:I'm a 2L at UT so I can give my experience w/ DC. Mind you this is all personal anecdotes. I have 3 friends who are going to DC firms (there are probably others, but honestly I don't talk to that many people about their plans). 2 of them are not even on law review and going to great firms in DC. It can be done, but people are correct in telling you to be very realistic about your goals. New York doesn't appear to be any harder than Dallas or Houston really (I know a lot of ppl going to NY who are not on law review).

I have a very similar financial aid package to you and don't regret going to UT. Obviously that's b/c things turned out OK for me, but even if they didn't I think there are a lot worse positions to be in than paying 100-150k for UT. Best of luck


Are you from out of state?

BigZuck
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Re: Texas

Postby BigZuck » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:12 pm

Would still like to hear what price is acceptable to pay for UT and rickgrimes' answer to my question.

People on this site love to spout the negativity but let's dig a little bit deeper here folks. UT is not worth it at 100K? Ok, cool. Now at what price is it worth it? Because if you can't offer something insightful and helpful beyond "Naw man, that's dumb" then it just looks like you're being a contrarian just for the sake of being a contrarian and not actually providing anything of value to the conversation. That's not very helpful for anyone.

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Re: Texas

Postby Rahviveh » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:14 pm

BigZuck wrote:Would still like to hear what price is acceptable to pay for UT and rickgrimes' answer to my question.

People on this site love to spout the negativity but let's dig a little bit deeper here folks. UT is not worth it at 100K? Ok, cool. Now at what price is it worth it? Because if you can't offer something insightful and helpful beyond "Naw man, that's dumb" then it just looks like you're being a contrarian just for the sake of being a contrarian and not actually providing anything of value to the conversation. That's not very helpful for anyone.


Its subjective. Everyone will value it differently.

BigZuck
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Re: Texas

Postby BigZuck » Wed Mar 13, 2013 1:23 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Would still like to hear what price is acceptable to pay for UT and rickgrimes' answer to my question.

People on this site love to spout the negativity but let's dig a little bit deeper here folks. UT is not worth it at 100K? Ok, cool. Now at what price is it worth it? Because if you can't offer something insightful and helpful beyond "Naw man, that's dumb" then it just looks like you're being a contrarian just for the sake of being a contrarian and not actually providing anything of value to the conversation. That's not very helpful for anyone.


Its subjective. Everyone will value it differently.


They jumped to a pretty quick "100K is too much!"

You see it all the time on this site. And I get it on some level. A crap school like John Marshall is not worth 200K. Probably not worth 0K. But the 100K line gets drawn in the sand a lot, especially when talking about the subset of schools just outside of the T14. And that's all well and good. But then when are they a good value?

crit_racer
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Re: Texas

Postby crit_racer » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:24 pm

ironbmike wrote:
crit_racer wrote:I'm a 2L at UT so I can give my experience w/ DC. Mind you this is all personal anecdotes. I have 3 friends who are going to DC firms (there are probably others, but honestly I don't talk to that many people about their plans). 2 of them are not even on law review and going to great firms in DC. It can be done, but people are correct in telling you to be very realistic about your goals. New York doesn't appear to be any harder than Dallas or Houston really (I know a lot of ppl going to NY who are not on law review).

I have a very similar financial aid package to you and don't regret going to UT. Obviously that's b/c things turned out OK for me, but even if they didn't I think there are a lot worse positions to be in than paying 100-150k for UT. Best of luck


Are you from out of state?


No, I'm from a major city in TX and have lived here all my life. I didn't have any problems getting offers in other states for this summer, though. If you do well here, there are a lot of opportunities. If not, it can be rough.

ironbmike
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Re: Texas

Postby ironbmike » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:40 pm

crit_racer wrote:
ironbmike wrote:
crit_racer wrote:I'm a 2L at UT so I can give my experience w/ DC. Mind you this is all personal anecdotes. I have 3 friends who are going to DC firms (there are probably others, but honestly I don't talk to that many people about their plans). 2 of them are not even on law review and going to great firms in DC. It can be done, but people are correct in telling you to be very realistic about your goals. New York doesn't appear to be any harder than Dallas or Houston really (I know a lot of ppl going to NY who are not on law review).

I have a very similar financial aid package to you and don't regret going to UT. Obviously that's b/c things turned out OK for me, but even if they didn't I think there are a lot worse positions to be in than paying 100-150k for UT. Best of luck


Are you from out of state?


No, I'm from a major city in TX and have lived here all my life. I didn't have any problems getting offers in other states for this summer, though. If you do well here, there are a lot of opportunities. If not, it can be rough.


Ahh gotcha. Makes sense.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Texas

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:16 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:
philosoraptor wrote:Yeah, not sure what Rick's talking about or what he knows about UT. Texas can be a good deal even for a high price, especially if you have in-state ties. But anecdotally speaking, it's tough to get D.C. from here, whether it's firms or government or public interest. Weirdly, LST says 16 people from the class of 2011 got jobs in D.C., but I can't think of a single classmate who's already got something lined up there.

No, you are.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... =employers

Bro, only 70% of C/O 2011 even got lawyer jerbs, and a full 10% are unemployed. $100k still costs $1100 / mo in loan payments for 10 years and that's gonna suck to pay off on a shitlaw salary, and only 30% got Biglaw or Fed Clerkship. Plus, OP doesn't have ties and that is a big factor. $100k+ for UT without ties is objectively a huge risk.


Bold doesn't make sense to me.

As whether UT is worth 100K (which includes CoL): First, I think LST is incredibly helpful, but you still have to keep in mind you're pulling data from the absolute low point of the legal market. Are things ever going to get boom-times? Probably not, but the overall numbers for class of 2012 and 2013 will be better.

In boom-times, UT was close to 40% on NLJ250 and around 8-10% art III judges. It's fair to say 2012 and 2013 won't be nearly that high for NLJ250 (for clerkships, I think we should be around 8% for 2013, I think higher for 2012), but it WILL be higher than 21.5%, especially for class of 2013. I wouldn't be surprised if 2013 was around 30-35%. Even being very conservative with a 25-30% number + ~8% art. iii clerkships, that puts things at 33%-38% (which should be slightly higher, if you take into consideration that 1) TX SC clerkships are pretty much on par with federal district clerkships in the eyes of TX biglaw, 2) Texas has probably the most (and some of the biggest named) litigation boutiques in the country, which don't show up on NLJ250 lists, and they regularly hire from UT) and 3) the small amount of midlaw, which pays around 120-150K (which is biglaw $$$ in a lot of cities), since TX biglaw pays 160K). If the numbers pan out to be around 35-40% for all the things listed above, I don't think that's an objectively huge risk. Still a decent risk, yes, but not risky enough to be a bad investment, in my opinion. (Out of state can hurt a little (and even a lot if the person is not a good interviewer and can't come up with a halfway decent story of "why texas"), but I know plenty of non-tx ties people at UT who wanted and were able to get TX biglaw.

For the record, I have no problem saying that UT at OOS tuition is a bad decision and UT even with instate tuition is a questionable one. UT at 21K/yr + CoL? Doesn't sound too bad to me.

On a bit of a tangent, but aren't you attending Duke at ~32K/yr? (So like, 160K+ including CoL?) Would you call that an objectively huge risk or not a good investment? It doesn't sound bad to me (and Duke's placement numbers definitely trump UT's), but if you're worried about UT at around 100K, I'm curious what you think about Duke at around 160K. (Though, maybe you were referring to UT not being worth substantially more than 100K.)

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Re: Texas

Postby rickgrimes69 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:38 pm

BigZuck wrote:Would still like to hear what price is acceptable to pay for UT and rickgrimes' answer to my question.

People on this site love to spout the negativity but let's dig a little bit deeper here folks. UT is not worth it at 100K? Ok, cool. Now at what price is it worth it? Because if you can't offer something insightful and helpful beyond "Naw man, that's dumb" then it just looks like you're being a contrarian just for the sake of being a contrarian and not actually providing anything of value to the conversation. That's not very helpful for anyone.


ITE, I wouldn't pay more than ~160k for any law school (minus HYS) because I just feel like that's too much debt comparative to your likely salary and ability to maintain that salary long term. The T13 is worth that IMO because you have a decent chance (over 50%) at getting a job able to service those loans.

Texas has less of a chance to get you that job sufficient to service the debt, thus the amount of risk I would feel comfortable taking on drops accordingly. Only 30% gets lucky, and I don't feel comfortable banking $160k on a 1 in 3 chance. $100k is the absolute maximum I could ever recommend a non-resident spend on Texas, and frankly I would personally feel uncomfortable even with that.

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:As whether UT is worth 100K (which includes CoL): First, I think LST is incredibly helpful, but you still have to keep in mind you're pulling data from the absolute low point of the legal market. Are things ever going to get boom-times? Probably not, but the overall numbers for class of 2012 and 2013 will be better.

In boom-times, UT was close to 40% on NLJ250 and around 8-10% art III judges. It's fair to say 2012 and 2013 won't be nearly that high for NLJ250 (for clerkships, I think we should be around 8% for 2013, I think higher for 2012), but it WILL be higher than 21.5%, especially for class of 2013. I wouldn't be surprised if 2013 was around 30-35%. Even being very conservative with a 25-30% number + ~8% art. iii clerkships, that puts things at 33%-38% (which should be slightly higher, if you take into consideration that 1) TX SC clerkships are pretty much on par with federal district clerkships in the eyes of TX biglaw, 2) Texas has probably the most (and some of the biggest named) litigation boutiques in the country, which don't show up on NLJ250 lists, and they regularly hire from UT) and 3) the small amount of midlaw, which pays around 120-150K (which is biglaw $$$ in a lot of cities), since TX biglaw pays 160K). If the numbers pan out to be around 35-40% for all the things listed above, I don't think that's an objectively huge risk.


Oh sorry I forgot that you have a crystal ball that informs you when the market is going to turn around. See, I left mine at home, and that's why I've been focusing on the actual data that we do have, instead of wildly speculating with hundreds of thousands of dollars of non-dischargeable debt on the line.

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:On a bit of a tangent, but aren't you attending Duke at ~32K/yr? (So like, 160K+ including CoL?) Would you call that an objectively huge risk or not a good investment? It doesn't sound bad to me (and Duke's placement numbers definitely trump UT's), but if you're worried about UT at around 100K, I'm curious what you think about Duke at around 160K. (Though, maybe you were referring to UT not being worth substantially more than 100K.)


Firstly, I have savings and am fortunate enough to have a line of credit that doesn't come from the government, so my total debt load will be more like $130k. $160k, as I stated above, would be the absolute maximum I would feel comfortable paying. But either way, Biglaw will be required to pay that off, and I knew that going into it. If I had done awful my first semester (bottom quarter / third), I was planning to cut my losses and drop out. The only reason I took the gamble in the first place was because I had a reasonable shot at succeeding, but I still knew it was a gamble.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Texas

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:57 pm

rickgrimes69 wrote:Oh sorry I forgot that you have a crystal ball that informs you when the market is going to turn around. See, I left mine at home, and that's why I've been focusing on the actual data that we do have, instead of wildly speculating with hundreds of thousands of dollars of non-dischargeable debt on the line.


Um, we're both relying on past actual data. You're focusing on the most recent (class of 2011) and on a single year, and I'm focusing on the past decade or so + guesses about what the data for class of 2012 & 13 will look like once we have it back (based on results that I saw from UT's class of 2012 (plus what people from class of 2012 were saying on TLS + results I saw from UT's class of 2013 (plus what people from class of 2013 were saying on TLS)). It's not a controversial claim that the legal market has improved from class of 2011 to 2012 and it improved again from class of 2012 to 13. That said, you're right, we don't have a compilation of data for those claims.

Also, we're both looking into crystal balls since neither of us can know with certainty what the %'s will be for class of 2016. I think I'm making fair guesses, but you can feel free to disagree. Just don't pretend that you're not making guesses either.

rickgrimes69 wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:On a bit of a tangent, but aren't you attending Duke at ~32K/yr? (So like, 160K+ including CoL?) Would you call that an objectively huge risk or not a good investment? It doesn't sound bad to me (and Duke's placement numbers definitely trump UT's), but if you're worried about UT at around 100K, I'm curious what you think about Duke at around 160K. (Though, maybe you were referring to UT not being worth substantially more than 100K.)


Firstly, I have savings and am fortunate enough to have a line of credit that doesn't come from the government, so my total debt load will be more like $130k. $160k, as I stated above, would be the absolute maximum I would feel comfortable paying. But either way, Biglaw will be required to pay that off, and I knew that going into it. If I had done awful my first semester (bottom quarter / third), I was planning to cut my losses and drop out. The only reason I took the gamble in the first place was because I had a reasonable shot at succeeding, but I still knew it was a gamble.


That's fair and makes sense.

utlaw2007
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Re: Texas

Postby utlaw2007 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 5:06 pm

ITE, I wouldn't pay more than ~160k for any law school (minus HYS) because I just feel like that's too much debt comparative to your likely salary and ability to maintain that salary long term. The T13 is worth that IMO because you have a decent chance (over 50%) at getting a job able to service those loans.

Texas has less of a chance to get you that job sufficient to service the debt, thus the amount of risk I would feel comfortable taking on drops accordingly. Only 30% gets lucky, and I don't feel comfortable banking $160k on a 1 in 3 chance. $100k is the absolute maximum I could ever recommend a non-resident spend on Texas, and frankly I would personally feel uncomfortable even with that.


This would be accurate and sound if cost of living after law school graduation was the same for all regions. But it isn't. It is much easier for someone to live just as comfortably as someone in New York on a lower salary in Texas. Obviously, this is subjective and dependent on the tastes of the person, but the COL for Texas doesn't even come close to the COL for other more dense regions of the country. And this difference is made even more apparent when you consider that Texas has no state income tax. And it's a main reason why some UT Law grads self select out of big law. But this site doesn't seem to grasp the concept that big law is not the unanimous best pathway to a financially lucrative legal career.And as a result, people here time and time again commit the most basic flaws of interpreting data. They assume that the wants and desires of people are all the same across regions of the country. I'm not arguing that they are different entirely. But I am saying that they COULD BE different. The numbers do not give us a definitive answer to that question. Therefore, all realistically possible interpretations of those numbers should be considered. Otherwise, all the advice based on those numbers is very suspect.




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