USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

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rad lulz
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby rad lulz » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:05 am

LRGhost wrote:
sinfiery wrote:Right. I don't think anyone here was saying only 50% ofthe HLS class could get biglaw if they wanted.
But if 62% chose biglaw in 07 and 48% in 2011, it probably wasn't by choice.


Except it sort of is. Not totally 100%, but yeah man. Do you really think 40% of HLS in the boom times were striking out? If everyone at HLS wanted BigLaw, they would have gotten it. What causes a ~%15 drop, though? Again, people realizing that they probably can't get BigLaw decide to do PI/Gov. And some people who probably could get BigLaw decide that it's not a good career move like it was in 2007. Think of it this way: the option was always there but fewer people thought it was a good idea to take it.

lol

LRGhost
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby LRGhost » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:12 am

rad lulz wrote:
LRGhost wrote:
sinfiery wrote:Right. I don't think anyone here was saying only 50% ofthe HLS class could get biglaw if they wanted.
But if 62% chose biglaw in 07 and 48% in 2011, it probably wasn't by choice.


Except it sort of is. Not totally 100%, but yeah man. Do you really think 40% of HLS in the boom times were striking out? If everyone at HLS wanted BigLaw, they would have gotten it. What causes a ~%15 drop, though? Again, people realizing that they probably can't get BigLaw decide to do PI/Gov. And some people who probably could get BigLaw decide that it's not a good career move like it was in 2007. Think of it this way: the option was always there but fewer people thought it was a good idea to take it.

lol


k which part bro

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hume85
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby hume85 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:13 am

rad lulz wrote:
LRGhost wrote:
sinfiery wrote:Right. I don't think anyone here was saying only 50% ofthe HLS class could get biglaw if they wanted.
But if 62% chose biglaw in 07 and 48% in 2011, it probably wasn't by choice.


Except it sort of is. Not totally 100%, but yeah man. Do you really think 40% of HLS in the boom times were striking out? If everyone at HLS wanted BigLaw, they would have gotten it. What causes a ~%15 drop, though? Again, people realizing that they probably can't get BigLaw decide to do PI/Gov. And some people who probably could get BigLaw decide that it's not a good career move like it was in 2007. Think of it this way: the option was always there but fewer people thought it was a good idea to take it.

lol


I mean, I would agree that some of the drop probably has to do with post-Latham weariness of Biglaw. But he's so fucking bad at using words to prove his point.

WhatOurBodiesAreFor
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:15 am

hume85 wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
LRGhost wrote:
sinfiery wrote:Right. I don't think anyone here was saying only 50% ofthe HLS class could get biglaw if they wanted.
But if 62% chose biglaw in 07 and 48% in 2011, it probably wasn't by choice.


Except it sort of is. Not totally 100%, but yeah man. Do you really think 40% of HLS in the boom times were striking out? If everyone at HLS wanted BigLaw, they would have gotten it. What causes a ~%15 drop, though? Again, people realizing that they probably can't get BigLaw decide to do PI/Gov. And some people who probably could get BigLaw decide that it's not a good career move like it was in 2007. Think of it this way: the option was always there but fewer people thought it was a good idea to take it.

lol


I mean, I would agree that some of the drop probably has to do with post-Latham weariness of Biglaw. But he's so fucking bad at using words to prove his point.


lol TCR hahahahaha. you guys are so funny!

LRGhost
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby LRGhost » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:17 am

hume85 wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
LRGhost wrote:
sinfiery wrote:Right. I don't think anyone here was saying only 50% ofthe HLS class could get biglaw if they wanted.
But if 62% chose biglaw in 07 and 48% in 2011, it probably wasn't by choice.


Except it sort of is. Not totally 100%, but yeah man. Do you really think 40% of HLS in the boom times were striking out? If everyone at HLS wanted BigLaw, they would have gotten it. What causes a ~%15 drop, though? Again, people realizing that they probably can't get BigLaw decide to do PI/Gov. And some people who probably could get BigLaw decide that it's not a good career move like it was in 2007. Think of it this way: the option was always there but fewer people thought it was a good idea to take it.

lol


I mean, I would agree that some of the drop probably has to do with post-Latham weariness of Biglaw. But he's so fucking bad at using words to prove his point.


You don't have to speak about me when you can actually address what I'm saying, bro. And I'm not just talking about getting laid off when I refer to career instability. It's probably a relevant factor that in 2007, the salary was much better.

LRGhost
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby LRGhost » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:19 am

I'm also not trying to 'prove a point'. You're just fucking stupid if you don't think kids at YHS would self select out of a shitty career that doesn't pay what it used to when the salary was the main motivation for most people going to LS in the first place. Is some of the self selection a combination of factors? Sure. But citing 64% getting BigLaw in 2007 to 48% in 2011 as if that 'proves' anything is dumb.

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hume85
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby hume85 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:22 am

LRGhost wrote:
hume85 wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
LRGhost wrote:
Except it sort of is. Not totally 100%, but yeah man. Do you really think 40% of HLS in the boom times were striking out? If everyone at HLS wanted BigLaw, they would have gotten it. What causes a ~%15 drop, though? Again, people realizing that they probably can't get BigLaw decide to do PI/Gov. And some people who probably could get BigLaw decide that it's not a good career move like it was in 2007. Think of it this way: the option was always there but fewer people thought it was a good idea to take it.

lol


I mean, I would agree that some of the drop probably has to do with post-Latham weariness of Biglaw. But he's so fucking bad at using words to prove his point.


You don't have to speak about me when you can actually address what I'm saying, bro. And I'm not just talking about getting laid off when I refer to career instability. It's probably a relevant factor that in 2007, the salary was much better.


I have you foe'd, so the only time I am going to address you is when someone else quotes you or you quote me. RE the bolded : AFAIK salaries in the major markets have been stagnant.

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sinfiery
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby sinfiery » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:22 am

But CLS kids couldn't? Why is HYS not bound by the same statistical connections we make for the rest of the t14?

LRGhost
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby LRGhost » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:27 am

hume85 wrote:I have you foe'd, so the only time I am going to address you is when someone else quotes you or you quote me. RE the bolded : AFAIK salaries in the major markets have been stagnant.


RE the bolded: lol.

Salaries have been stagnant but 160k was worth a lot more in 2007 and this says nothing of the massive bonuses even first years received. Also, lol at tuition then and loans.

sinfiery wrote:But CLS kids couldn't? Why is HYS not bound by the same statistical connections we make for the rest of the t14?


Dude, the same reason CLS isn't bound by the same limitations as other schools. The absolute bottom of CLS probably has different results than their counterparts at HYS.

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banjo
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby banjo » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:36 am

In the absence of evidence, HYS are given the benefit of the doubt. Maybe that will change in years to come.

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sinfiery
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby sinfiery » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:38 am

Alright. Id research how in a volatile job market characterized by large debt obligations and definite uncertainty one would clamor to the highest paying option. I would research how these apparent PI/Govt jobs took the 07 to 2011 shift as far as hiring. I'd look at school funded jobs between 07 and 2011. I'd try to find how the general starting salary of legal jobs compare from biglaw to that of non biglaw and how this effects debt repayment.

But I'm too lazy so nvm.

LRGhost
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby LRGhost » Sun Mar 17, 2013 11:42 am

sinfiery wrote:Alright. Id research how in a volatile job market characterized by large debt obligations and definite uncertainty one would clamor to the highest paying option. I would research how these apparent PI/Govt jobs took the 07 to 2011 shift as far as hiring. I'd look at school funded jobs between 07 and 2011. I'd try to find how the general starting salary of legal jobs compare from biglaw to that of non biglaw and how this effects debt repayment.

But I'm too lazy so nvm.


The highest paying option is not necessarily the best option, dude. I don't know how many times people can say this here or write about it or whatever but BigLaw doesn't pay all that much anymore when you have large debt to service. More importantly, half of your class is gone by around their third year. Some of that is willful attrition and some of that is getting let go and some of that is a combination. But it's not a job that people tend to last a long time in. And then what comes after that? Exit options are scarce (contrary to what people say, just getting a good in-house job is not that easy) and you still have a lot of debt to pay but now you're taking a pay cut.

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FlanAl
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby FlanAl » Sun Mar 17, 2013 12:23 pm

big law seems like a much worse option than it did in 2008 when I started poking around these boards. I think that there terribleness of it has just been a lot more publicized since ITE. I'd also like to point out that ITE kind of created more situations that require PI attorneys, foreclosure prevention etc.. Maybe HY schools just created more fellowships to address these needs, they definitely have the endowment spending power to do this. It also seems to me that the general attitude amongst educated 20 somethings is to help people now and not to just make as much $ as possible, the mid 2000's were more like the 80s in this respect.

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Skye
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby Skye » Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:40 pm

If USNWR decided anything over X% in School Funded Jobs would be counted as unemployed (or underemployed as schools like to say) it is likely that schools would discontinue spending seven figures on SFJ. What about grads who desperately depend on SFJ as their last bastion of hope? I believe the platitude that best fits is, be careful what you ask for.

LRGhost
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby LRGhost » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:00 pm

Skye wrote:If USNWR decided anything over X% in School Funded Jobs would be counted as unemployed (or underemployed as schools like to say) it is likely that schools would discontinue spending seven figures on SFJ. What about grads who desperately depend on SFJ as their last bastion of hope? I believe the platitude that best fits is, be careful what you ask for.


Yes, this is the problem with totally discounting school funded and JD advantage jobs. We should be suspicious of the overwhelming majority of them, however.

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Rahviveh
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby Rahviveh » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:17 pm

LRGhost wrote:
sinfiery wrote:Alright. Id research how in a volatile job market characterized by large debt obligations and definite uncertainty one would clamor to the highest paying option. I would research how these apparent PI/Govt jobs took the 07 to 2011 shift as far as hiring. I'd look at school funded jobs between 07 and 2011. I'd try to find how the general starting salary of legal jobs compare from biglaw to that of non biglaw and how this effects debt repayment.

But I'm too lazy so nvm.


The highest paying option is not necessarily the best option, dude. I don't know how many times people can say this here or write about it or whatever but BigLaw doesn't pay all that much anymore when you have large debt to service. More importantly, half of your class is gone by around their third year. Some of that is willful attrition and some of that is getting let go and some of that is a combination. But it's not a job that people tend to last a long time in. And then what comes after that? Exit options are scarce (contrary to what people say, just getting a good in-house job is not that easy) and you still have a lot of debt to pay but now you're taking a pay cut.

What are you basing the bolded on?

LRGhost
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby LRGhost » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:20 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:What are you basing the bolded on?


Campos' blog, other sources, etc. It's not something with hard-and-fast stats available.

BalanceCare
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby BalanceCare » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:27 pm

I'm a PI focused applicant who is in at H and S so I've been talking to alumns in my field. They have also shared anecdotal reports from their YLS-grad colleagues about Yale. (Doubt I'll get in there but the comparison is interesting).

For students like me -- intensely PI focused, preparing to live on LRAP -- these fellowships are considered a good thing and a major attraction. Basically they offer students the chance to design custom positions at organizations they're interested in. The attitude is not, "damn, I failed at getting a job so the school will have to hire me." It's more like "holy shit, you mean I can define my own job and put it on my résumé without having to win a Skadden fellowship?"

From what I've heard students at one of these three schools rarely even bother with the Skadden applications anymore because the school fellowships are generous and lead to the outcomes people want. Harvard's Public Interest Venture Fund just started offering not just fellowships for the grad's salary but also a limited number of additional seed-funding grants for people who want to start their own nonprofit orgs. (it's the first year of the program and they are now reviewing their first crop of applicants. So we'll have to see how the money is apportioned.)

Point being there is a big difference between a fellowship that pays entry-level PI salary for your (post-school) dream job vs. a make-work stats-fluffing admin position.

That being said, we need more transparency from all the schools and I appreciate your wariness. Just sharing what I've been hearing from students and grads.
Last edited by BalanceCare on Sun Mar 17, 2013 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rahviveh
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby Rahviveh » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:35 pm

LRGhost wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:What are you basing the bolded on?


Campos' blog, other sources, etc. It's not something with hard-and-fast stats available.


I read Campos' blog every day. You made a strong statement about the scarcity of exit options. If you have more than anecdotes I would like to see them.

LRGhost
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby LRGhost » Sun Mar 17, 2013 3:22 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
LRGhost wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:What are you basing the bolded on?


Campos' blog, other sources, etc. It's not something with hard-and-fast stats available.


I read Campos' blog every day. You made a strong statement about the scarcity of exit options. If you have more than anecdotes I would like to see them.


Most recent post would be 'the Forgotten' but it's a recurring theme.

09042014
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby 09042014 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:59 pm

banjo wrote:In the absence of evidence, HYS are given the benefit of the doubt. Maybe that will change in years to come.


But this is evidence. They are getting paid by their school to do unpaid internships. That's TTT as fuck.

LRGhost
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby LRGhost » Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:02 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
banjo wrote:In the absence of evidence, HYS are given the benefit of the doubt. Maybe that will change in years to come.


But this is evidence. They are getting paid by their school to do unpaid internships. That's TTT as fuck.


Shut the fuck up jesus christ

09042014
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby 09042014 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:06 pm

LRGhost wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
banjo wrote:In the absence of evidence, HYS are given the benefit of the doubt. Maybe that will change in years to come.


But this is evidence. They are getting paid by their school to do unpaid internships. That's TTT as fuck.


Shut the fuck up jesus christ


Would you stop being a huge cunt because I insulted your dream school?

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pedestrian
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby pedestrian » Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:16 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
banjo wrote:In the absence of evidence, HYS are given the benefit of the doubt. Maybe that will change in years to come.


But this is evidence. They are getting paid by their school to do unpaid internships. That's TTT as fuck.


Treating all school-funded positions interchangeably without bothering to look at outcomes is about as stupid as taking a TTT 96% employment claim at face value. Numbers are just a tool, not the whole picture.

That said, if you think HYS are TTT toilets, I suggest that you not attend.

LRGhost
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby LRGhost » Sun Mar 17, 2013 5:23 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
LRGhost wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
banjo wrote:In the absence of evidence, HYS are given the benefit of the doubt. Maybe that will change in years to come.


But this is evidence. They are getting paid by their school to do unpaid internships. That's TTT as fuck.


Shut the fuck up jesus christ


Would you stop being a huge cunt because I insulted your dream school?


No dude, you're just a fucking idiot. All you've done is scream "LOL UNPAID INTERNSHIPS HOLY FUCKING SHIT WHAT A SHITHOLE" even though on the same page, someone offers really good insight into the program at one of the schools. You're just a fucking tool and a shitty poster and you're not nearly as funny, edgy, or original as you think you are.




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