USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

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cahwc12
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby cahwc12 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:32 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
cahwc12 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Stop making excuses for Yale's employment BS. People working in internships aren't employed even if their school gives them a stipend.


You seem to know a lot more about this than I do (which is admittedly not much). I have always been under the impression that these school-funded positions at HYS have always been genuine, and are just a bit more plentiful due to biglaw contraction. I have similarly believed that the CCN, UVA, GULC/GW school-funded positions have largely been employment gaming. I don't disbelieve you, but could you explain why you exactly you think these HYS positions are largely also BS? (Also, if I'm misunderstanding your argument, please explain.)

Thanks.


They have genuine ones. Most t14 have genuine fellowships. But they are for 1-2% of the class. But they all suspiciously exploded in size when student employment dropped. They are nonjobs created to pretend their graduates all have jobs. It's basically unemployment insurance.

Why do you believe that when yale creates " more plentiful due to biglaw contraction" that is not juking the employment stats. But when "CCN, UVA, GULC/GW" does it, it is "employment gaming." You seem to believe that because it's Yale, it can't be wrong.

Stop riding Yale's nuts.


I agree that the line shouldn't necessarily be drawn there. I guess my point is that while I feel confident that most of the school-funded jobs at UVA and Columbia etc are verifiable bullshit jobs, up until this thread I hadn't seen anyone call out the Yale jobs. Do you have any supporting evidence other than the convenient timing of the added jobs? I'm not trying to be hostile... I'm just genuinely curious.

I don't necessarily believe my assertions are correct... I just don't see any evidence to discredit Yale's school-funded positions (or harvard's or stanford's for that matter). Shouldn't it be a straightforward manner to figure out, at least anecdotally? Maybe the information is and has been there, and I can just only recall seeing stuff on UVA, Columbia and GW.

I just figured since you are so adamant about it, you must know something I don't. I'm not looking to get into an argument... I think I'm just in the group that would like to know the truth so that I'm not spreading or believing misinformation.

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TaipeiMort
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby TaipeiMort » Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:15 pm

With top schools, it is also an issue of market demand. Corporations and top public interest orgs previously would wait until grads had experience to hire. Now, some of them have chosen to hire directly from top schools. Instead of paying these grads market wages, they will bring them in at a fellowship salary for a year, and keep them if they like them. It mitigates the risk of having them work at an entry-level salary without experience. At Chicago some of these have been employer-paid, and some have been school paid. While not ideal for everyone, these school-funded positions may allow students to get into positions they normally wouldn't.

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The Brainalist
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby The Brainalist » Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:18 pm

cahwc12 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:They have genuine ones. Most t14 have genuine fellowships. But they are for 1-2% of the class. But they all suspiciously exploded in size when student employment dropped. They are nonjobs created to pretend their graduates all have jobs. It's basically unemployment insurance.

Why do you believe that when yale creates " more plentiful due to biglaw contraction" that is not juking the employment stats. But when "CCN, UVA, GULC/GW" does it, it is "employment gaming." You seem to believe that because it's Yale, it can't be wrong.

Stop riding Yale's nuts.


I agree that the line shouldn't necessarily be drawn there. I guess my point is that while I feel confident that most of the school-funded jobs at UVA and Columbia etc are verifiable bullshit jobs, up until this thread I hadn't seen anyone call out the Yale jobs. Do you have any supporting evidence other than the convenient timing of the added jobs? I'm not trying to be hostile... I'm just genuinely curious.

I don't necessarily believe my assertions are correct... I just don't see any evidence to discredit Yale's school-funded positions (or harvard's or stanford's for that matter). Shouldn't it be a straightforward manner to figure out, at least anecdotally? Maybe the information is and has been there, and I can just only recall seeing stuff on UVA, Columbia and GW.

I just figured since you are so adamant about it, you must know something I don't. I'm not looking to get into an argument... I think I'm just in the group that would like to know the truth so that I'm not spreading or believing misinformation.



You: Why do you think HYS's numbers shouldn't be assumed legit?

Him: Same reason everyone thinks CCNMVPB's numbers may not be legit. Why should we give HYS a free pass on the same vague employment stat?

You: Because I've heard everyone question the vague CCNMVPB's numbers before. This is the first time I've heard it for Yale, so I demand HARD FACTS before I even question HYS's vague statistics. What are your hard facts?

The answer I anticipate from him: IF WE HAD HARD FACTS ABOUT ANY OF THESE SCHOOLS' VAGUE EMPLOYMENT STATISTICS, WE WOULDN'T BE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION. We want these facts for ALL the schools. Why should Yale be immune from our demand for hard facts?

09042014
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby 09042014 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:19 pm

I had typed a response but Brainalist nailed it.

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cahwc12
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby cahwc12 » Fri Mar 15, 2013 8:12 am

The Brainalist wrote:The answer I anticipate from him: IF WE HAD HARD FACTS ABOUT ANY OF THESE SCHOOLS' VAGUE EMPLOYMENT STATISTICS, WE WOULDN'T BE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION. We want these facts for ALL the schools. Why should Yale be immune from our demand for hard facts?


I feel like that's a bit different from my argument. I've read rumblings on the internet about other schools' employment data being bogus, but have never even heard HYS fellowships being questioned until this thread. After some googling just now though, it looks like HY (S doesn't seem to partake in the fellowship game) have also been questioned in various places, and I just never noticed.

09042014
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby 09042014 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:20 am

cahwc12 wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:The answer I anticipate from him: IF WE HAD HARD FACTS ABOUT ANY OF THESE SCHOOLS' VAGUE EMPLOYMENT STATISTICS, WE WOULDN'T BE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION. We want these facts for ALL the schools. Why should Yale be immune from our demand for hard facts?


I feel like that's a bit different from my argument. I've read rumblings on the internet about other schools' employment data being bogus, but have never even heard HYS fellowships being questioned until this thread. After some googling just now though, it looks like HY (S doesn't seem to partake in the fellowship game) have also been questioned in various places, and I just never noticed.


Up until recently nobody knew they were doing it.

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hung jury
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby hung jury » Sat Mar 16, 2013 12:16 pm

Well, to chime in, Stanford's 2 "school funded jobs" are 12 month fellowships that pay 45k with benefits (including bar exam). They are project based like the Skadden/EJW fellowships. They began in 2008 and are funded/organized by a student and alumni group.

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Elston Gunn
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby Elston Gunn » Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:18 pm

FWIW, Yale CDO told us at the beginning of the year that they were compiling data on outcomes for people in the school funded jobs (adding vague stuff like the preliminary results were "very good"). It'll be interesting to check out if/when they actually give us that.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Mar 16, 2013 3:59 pm

If you guys wanna Linkedin stalk the 27 school-funded people from Harvard's 2010 class, feel free.

http://www.law.harvard.edu/news/2010/05 ... ships.html

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Samara
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby Samara » Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:26 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:If you guys wanna Linkedin stalk the 27 school-funded people from Harvard's 2010 class, feel free.

http://www.law.harvard.edu/news/2010/05 ... ships.html

19 of the 27 fellowships are from programs created in 2009 or 2010.

WHAT A COINCIDENCE

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Elston Gunn
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby Elston Gunn » Sat Mar 16, 2013 4:57 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:If you guys wanna Linkedin stalk the 27 school-funded people from Harvard's 2010 class, feel free.

http://www.law.harvard.edu/news/2010/05 ... ships.html


Okay, because I'm lame I looked at the first ten.
1. Still at the job she got the fellowship for, but presumably no longer school funded.
2. Off the map (can't be a good sign).
3. USDC clerkship->Seyfarth Shaw
4. Still at the same job, slightly unclear who's paying her.
5. COA clerkship->White and Case
6. Same job she got the fellowship for.
7. Ditto.
8. Faegre Baker Daniels.
9. COA clerkship.
10. COA staff attorney. (Not ideal for an Harvard kid but still a job.)

Doesn't look too bad to me. Certainly most of these folks wouldn't have needed these jobs before the recession, but it also doesn't look like they were screwed (except maybe #2).

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:05 pm

Elston Gunn wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:If you guys wanna Linkedin stalk the 27 school-funded people from Harvard's 2010 class, feel free.

http://www.law.harvard.edu/news/2010/05 ... ships.html


Okay, because I'm lame I looked at the first ten.
1. Still at the job she got the fellowship for, but presumably no longer school funded.
2. Off the map (can't be a good sign).
3. USDC clerkship->Seyfarth Shaw
4. Still at the same job, slightly unclear who's paying her.
5. COA clerkship->White and Case
6. Same job she got the fellowship for.
7. Ditto.
8. Faegre Baker Daniels.
9. COA clerkship.
10. COA staff attorney. (Not ideal for an Harvard kid but still a job.)

Doesn't look too bad to me. Certainly most of these folks wouldn't have needed these jobs before the recession, but it also doesn't look like they were screwed (except maybe #2).


I only see 4 good outcomes that are quantifiable from that list, along with one so so one. All of the others could be in unpaid positions for all we know.

Please note that I'm just going off of what you posted.

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Elston Gunn
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby Elston Gunn » Sat Mar 16, 2013 9:38 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
Elston Gunn wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:If you guys wanna Linkedin stalk the 27 school-funded people from Harvard's 2010 class, feel free.

http://www.law.harvard.edu/news/2010/05 ... ships.html


Okay, because I'm lame I looked at the first ten.
1. Still at the job she got the fellowship for, but presumably no longer school funded.
2. Off the map (can't be a good sign).
3. USDC clerkship->Seyfarth Shaw
4. Still at the same job, slightly unclear who's paying her.
5. COA clerkship->White and Case
6. Same job she got the fellowship for.
7. Ditto.
8. Faegre Baker Daniels.
9. COA clerkship.
10. COA staff attorney. (Not ideal for an Harvard kid but still a job.)

Doesn't look too bad to me. Certainly most of these folks wouldn't have needed these jobs before the recession, but it also doesn't look like they were screwed (except maybe #2).


I only see 4 good outcomes that are quantifiable from that list, along with one so so one. All of the others could be in unpaid positions for all we know.

Please note that I'm just going off of what you posted.


Fair enough, I suppose. I don't have a horse in this fight (I'd do whatever I could to avoid ending up in one of these "fellowships"). However, I highly doubt Harvard is continuing to pay for these people to work 3 years after they've graduated, and since the stated goal of these programs is usually to get people jobs and experience somewhere they really want to work but can't afford to hire them, I would say still being in the same job 3 years later should be tentatively seen as a good outcome. no problem with being a little skeptical though.

It's also pretty shocking actually that presumably bottomish of the class Harvard grads can get AIII clerkships with a year of experience.

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pedestrian
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby pedestrian » Sat Mar 16, 2013 10:50 pm

In the case of HYS don't think that it is fair to assume that school-funded fellowships are the only thing keeping students from the unemployment line. A student with a strong PI commitment who has a choice between (A) funding to do work at an otherwise-out-of-reach public interest organization that may turn into a permanent position, or (B) work at a firm, is likely to choose A. Programs like this create incentives and distort outcomes.

I'm not contesting that this is a response to abysmal hiring in PI and academia, but I think that it is an effort to help students who are committed to those fields get experience that will lead to better opportunities, not an attempt to game the USNWR employment stats.

Should students be aware that PI and academia are such terrible markets that you might need a school-funded program to get a job, even if you are coming from HYS? Yes, that is something that people with those aspirations should know. But that is just the nature of the nonprofit economy right now. It also makes it that much harder for people who aren't coming from HYS and don't have access to these programs to subsidize them.

P.S. I'm curious what the conceptual difference is between these and the school-funded stipends to cover unpaid summer internships.

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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Sun Mar 17, 2013 1:21 am

pedestrian wrote:In the case of HYS don't think that it is fair to assume that school-funded fellowships are the only thing keeping students from the unemployment line. A student with a strong PI commitment who has a choice between (A) funding to do work at an otherwise-out-of-reach public interest organization that may turn into a permanent position, or (B) work at a firm, is likely to choose A. Programs like this create incentives and distort outcomes.

Yup. The TLS hivemind prefers to dismiss these people but there are a significant number of people who do go to law school to do public interest work and actually stay committed to it. Many of them end up in these fellowship positions. It says very little about the school's ability to place those people in biglaw, and quite a bit about the current state of public interest hiring.

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sinfiery
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby sinfiery » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:27 am

So...what explains the 07 nlj250 at hls vs the numbers now and the subsequent creation of these fellowships when the nlj numbers fell?


At some point, the reason other schools get called out (this exact coincidence in statistics) warrants calling out HYS (moreso H)

09042014
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby 09042014 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:53 am

sinfiery wrote:So...what explains the 07 nlj250 at hls vs the numbers now and the subsequent creation of these fellowships when the nlj numbers fell?


At some point, the reason other schools get called out (this exact coincidence in statistics) warrants calling out HYS (moreso H)


Why moreso H? Yale has more.

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sinfiery
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby sinfiery » Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:16 am

8% drop at YLS vs 13%at HLS and I seem more partial to a smaller class size when judging a shift in percentages. But both are indeed significant.

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banjo
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby banjo » Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:20 am

Hasn't market pay been the same since 2007? Maybe 160k isn't enough to lure people away from their PI goals anymore, especially with LRAP programs improving.

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sinfiery
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby sinfiery » Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:28 am

There are always excuses, but with the same timeline as CCNMVPBNDCG demise in NLJ numbers, why exactly is HYS a special snowflake?

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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby LRGhost » Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:29 am

banjo wrote:Hasn't market pay been the same since 2007? Maybe 160k isn't enough to lure people away from their PI goals anymore, especially with LRAP programs improving.


This, dude. Some people self-select into PI. Some people were on the fence. Maybe debt plus the career uncertainty of BigLaw made some more people at these top schools go into PI/Gov. The reason we distinguish YHS' fellowships from other schools' is because they are different and the people going in to them almost certainly had other options.

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sinfiery
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby sinfiery » Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:34 am

So as Columbia grads couldn't get a biglaw job and are fighting for their lives against unemployment, HYS grads were forgoing their certain biglaw offers because of career uncertainty in the field?


Man, I'm a 0L and will believe a lot, but cmon..

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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby LRGhost » Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:41 am

sinfiery wrote:So as Columbia grads couldn't get a biglaw job and are fighting for their lives against unemployment, HYS grads were forgoing their certain biglaw offers because of career uncertainty in the field?


Man, I'm a 0L and will believe a lot, but cmon..


Not so much that it's certain, but you're missing the actual argument which is that some people who could probably get BigLaw don't want the uncertainty of it, they would rather trade it in for PI/Gov. Their debt gets paid off, they get to see their SO/family/whatever, and they still have a prestigious degree with a lot of mobility. I'm sure there are CLS grads doing the same thing just like there are Chi grads doing the same thing just like there are UVA grads doing the same thing. But as you go down the list, especially at some schools, these fellowships aren't actual launchpads for a career.

And yeah, I'm sure some people at HYS doing these fellowships probably couldn't have gotten BigLaw (though this is incredibly rare, even ITE -- maybe they just didn't want to be in a certain region or work for a certain firm).

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sinfiery
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby sinfiery » Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:45 am

Right. I don't think anyone here was saying only 50% ofthe HLS class could get biglaw if they wanted.
But if 62% chose biglaw in 07 and 48% in 2011, it probably wasn't by choice.

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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby LRGhost » Sun Mar 17, 2013 10:52 am

sinfiery wrote:Right. I don't think anyone here was saying only 50% ofthe HLS class could get biglaw if they wanted.
But if 62% chose biglaw in 07 and 48% in 2011, it probably wasn't by choice.


Except it sort of is. Not totally 100%, but yeah man. Do you really think 40% of HLS in the boom times were striking out? If everyone at HLS wanted BigLaw, they would have gotten it. What causes a ~%15 drop, though? Again, people realizing that they probably can't get BigLaw decide to do PI/Gov. And some people who probably could get BigLaw decide that it's not a good career move like it was in 2007. Think of it this way: the option was always there but fewer people thought it was a good idea to take it.




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