USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

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Tom Joad
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby Tom Joad » Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:23 pm

rad lulz wrote:
dangerdan wrote:Berkeley should clearly be 6th

Yeah dude lots more employers would come to campus AND your penis would get bigger.

Congrats on the new girth, bro.

californiabeauar
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby californiabeauar » Tue Mar 12, 2013 9:01 pm

n'm

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cahwc12
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby cahwc12 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:39 am

pedestrian wrote:There is a big difference though between a school-funded teaching fellowship or post-grad PI funding and hiring your students to answer phones and stuff envelopes for minimum wage for a year.

Both are responses to the bad economy, but fellowships often do provide a bridge to better employment opportunities, whereas temp work is a blatant attempt to game the rankings.

I wish we could see exactly what these jobs are and what happens to the students who get them.


I think this is something that will be fixed with time. From what I've read, the c/o 2012 will be similar in granularity to the c/o 2011 data, but there is hope that the c/o 2013 data will be a marked improvement.

Until then, while I agree it's bullshit and these schools should have asterisks next to their names, I think that you really have no choice but to count them. The truth will come out soon. That schools like American, Pepperdine, Brooklyn saw precipitous drops in the rankings this year suggest that USNWR is at least trying.

And because we all know how masturbatory the ranking system is, as the school's ranking drops, so all the other factors that rank it will drop accordingly. Employment data is really one of the only semi-independent variables, and it, too, partially depends on the rankings.

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pedestrian
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby pedestrian » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:56 am

Desert Fox wrote:10% of Yale's grads aren't working on teaching fellowship.


Perhaps not, but just poking around the website a little I found 15 post-grads for 2012-13 who had various school-funded public interest and research fellowships and there were several other fellowships that did not list current recipients. 10% of the class is ~20 so it isn't a stretch to think that every school-funded job is either a real job at the school or a fellowship.

The public interest fellowships fund students while they work for 1-2 years at outside nonprofits. Whether that leads to a job offer or not, it is legitimate work experience on their resumes. The research and teaching fellowships allow students to publish, which is essential to an academic career. Several fellowships (which I didn't count) are only for students who are a few years out, so it also isn't like - "whelp, USNWR only cares about the first year, so sayonara!"

Many of these fellowships predate the recession and are valuable even in a booming economy. Even granting that fellowships have increased in response to the recession, that only makes sense, doesn't it? Wouldn't anyone prefer to go to a school that responds to a poor hiring market in academia and government budget cuts by providing additional support to students who are interested in those careers?

If GW and other schools are really paying graduates minimum wage to sit in the basement, that is a very different situation. However, I don't think that evaluating schools is as simple as subtracting school-funded jobs from the listed employment %.

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Elston Gunn
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby Elston Gunn » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:04 am

pedestrian wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:10% of Yale's grads aren't working on teaching fellowship.


Perhaps not, but just poking around the website a little I found 15 post-grads for 2012-13 who had various school-funded public interest and research fellowships and there were several other fellowships that did not list current recipients. 10% of the class is ~20 so it isn't a stretch to think that every school-funded job is either a real job at the school or a fellowship.

The public interest fellowships fund students while they work for 1-2 years at outside nonprofits. Whether that leads to a job offer or not, it is legitimate work experience on their resumes. The research and teaching fellowships allow students to publish, which is essential to an academic career. Several fellowships (which I didn't count) are only for students who are a few years out, so it also isn't like - "whelp, USNWR only cares about the first year, so sayonara!"

Many of these fellowships predate the recession and are valuable even in a booming economy. Even granting that fellowships have increased in response to the recession, that only makes sense, doesn't it? Wouldn't anyone prefer to go to a school that responds to a poor hiring market in academia and government budget cuts by providing additional support to students who are interested in those careers?

If GW and other schools are really paying graduates minimum wage to sit in the basement, that is a very different situation. However, I don't think that evaluating schools is as simple as subtracting school-funded jobs from the listed employment %.


The school-funded jobs at Yale are definitely all "real," though, for instance, I'm sure the people who are getting paid by Yale to work at HUD, etc. could have gotten paid by, you know, HUD before the recession. My guess would be that the jump in school funded jobs is almost entirely because of the huge drop in PI hiring rather than the relatively smaller drop in firm hiring, since there are so many people here who are completely against working at a firm.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby JamMasterJ » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:17 am

they need to figure out how to distill school-funded into what people are doing AFTER school funded years. I know our's end up getting jerbs for the most part, and with LRAP, even if a bunch of those are shitty PI, it still makes the degree pretty cheap.

09042014
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby 09042014 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:37 pm

Stop making excuses for Yale's employment BS. People working in internships aren't employed even if their school gives them a stipend.

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pedestrian
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby pedestrian » Wed Mar 13, 2013 2:59 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Stop making excuses for Yale's employment BS. People working in internships aren't employed even if their school gives them a stipend.


By your logic, Article III clerks, visiting assistant professors, and PI attorneys living on federal grant money aren't employed. Fellowships are an increasingly important component of certain career paths, and not just in legal fields - they are sprouting up in science, medicine and the humanities as well.

Honestly, I don't care what fits your definition of employment. The real question is whether going to a particular school will result in a desired career outcome. Some school-funded positions will and some will not. You can't take a school's employment numbers at face value, but obtuse paranoia isn't helpful either.

rad lulz
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby rad lulz » Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:02 pm

lol aIII clerks draw a federal salary d00d

LRGhost
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby LRGhost » Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:04 pm

pedestrian wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Stop making excuses for Yale's employment BS. People working in internships aren't employed even if their school gives them a stipend.

Some school-funded positions will and some will not. You can't take a school's employment numbers at face value, but obtuse paranoia isn't helpful either.


School funded from Yale or NYU, or even JD Advantage work from GULC that's politically minded, that has different results than admissions work or working for cheap at some agency to fluff up data. I agree. But I am a strong advocate for pessimism.

rad lulz
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby rad lulz » Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:06 pm

Also you read that shit in TFL about VAPs? Shit is bordering on scam territory

09042014
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby 09042014 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:32 pm

pedestrian wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Stop making excuses for Yale's employment BS. People working in internships aren't employed even if their school gives them a stipend.


By your logic, Article III clerks, visiting assistant professors, and PI attorneys living on federal grant money aren't employed. Fellowships are an increasingly important component of certain career paths, and not just in legal fields - they are sprouting up in science, medicine and the humanities as well.

Honestly, I don't care what fits your definition of employment. The real question is whether going to a particular school will result in a desired career outcome. Some school-funded positions will and some will not. You can't take a school's employment numbers at face value, but obtuse paranoia isn't helpful either.


Federal grant money? You mean the Feds give an orgo a million dollars and that orgo pays you 50K? That's called employment dooder. Fellowships that are paid by the orgo that is getting the work is employment. If you take a fellowship at MIT for physics they are paying you. It's a job. If your school pays you 30K to do an unpaid internship, that's not a job.

I realize that schools often have real fellowships that are competitive and desirable. But not enough for 10% of the class.

These are "fellowships" you get because you can't find a real job.

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pedestrian
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby pedestrian » Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:03 pm

rad lulz wrote:lol aIII clerks draw a federal salary d00d


Yes, I know, my point is that it is temporary and relatively low-paying and most people do it for the reward of the experience and because it has the possibility of leading to improved career opportunities.

The same is true of PI/research fellowships.

09042014
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby 09042014 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:06 pm

pedestrian wrote:
rad lulz wrote:lol aIII clerks draw a federal salary d00d


Yes, I know, my point is that it is temporary and relatively low-paying and most people do it for the reward of the experience and because it has the possibility of leading to improved career opportunities.

The same is true of PI/research fellowships.


Do you want to make some more irrelevant points?

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:08 pm

pedestrian wrote:
rad lulz wrote:lol aIII clerks draw a federal salary d00d


Yes, I know, my point is that it is temporary and relatively low-paying and most people do it for the reward of the experience and because it has the possibility of leading to improved career opportunities.

The same is true of PI/research fellowships.

Well, given that someone was talking about how the unemployed grads at their school were proctoring exams, I think the school-funded jobs have a high potential to fail those criteria.

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Elston Gunn
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby Elston Gunn » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:28 pm

I think the fact that many YLS grads can't get decent PI organizations to pay them--which I think is basically the entirety of what Yale's jump in school funded jobs shows--should really scare PI focused people away from law school. PI is a shit show.

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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:53 pm

Elston Gunn wrote:I think the fact that many YLS grads can't get decent PI organizations to pay them--which I think is basically the entirety of what Yale's jump in school funded jobs shows--should really scare PI focused people away from law school. PI is a shit show.

Good point, this is exactly right.

09042014
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby 09042014 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:59 pm

I wonder why PI is so shitty ITE. Was it always this shitty? Just a huge supply of people looking for it? Got hooked on free employment after the Great Deferment of 2009?

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pedestrian
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby pedestrian » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:20 pm

Desert Fox wrote:I wonder why PI is so shitty ITE. Was it always this shitty? Just a huge supply of people looking for it? Got hooked on free employment after the Great Deferment of 2009?


Nonprofits and philanthropies were hit particularly hard by the stock market crash, because a lot of endowments were gutted and donations dried up. Stimulus funding helped at first, but that was offset by deep cuts at the state and local level. Now that the federal government has turned to austerity as well, it is hard times indeed.

I know of several nonprofits that had to reduce staff by ~50% and hiring freezes are pretty common. Maybe things will turn around now that the markets have recovered, but only time will tell.

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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:48 pm

pedestrian wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:I wonder why PI is so shitty ITE. Was it always this shitty? Just a huge supply of people looking for it? Got hooked on free employment after the Great Deferment of 2009?


Nonprofits and philanthropies were hit particularly hard by the stock market crash, because a lot of endowments were gutted and donations dried up. Stimulus funding helped at first, but that was offset by deep cuts at the state and local level. Now that the federal government has turned to austerity as well, it is hard times indeed.

I know of several nonprofits that had to reduce staff by ~50% and hiring freezes are pretty common. Maybe things will turn around now that the markets have recovered, but only time will tell.

Yeah, also publicly funded orgs (government, non-profits relying on government funding) tend to experience the effects of recessions well after the private sector does, and recover well after, as well. Government was doing fine for the year or so after Lehman et al, but when the cutbacks do hit they also stick around longer.

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cahwc12
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby cahwc12 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:16 am

Desert Fox wrote:Stop making excuses for Yale's employment BS. People working in internships aren't employed even if their school gives them a stipend.


You seem to know a lot more about this than I do (which is admittedly not much). I have always been under the impression that these school-funded positions at HYS have always been genuine, and are just a bit more plentiful due to biglaw contraction. I have similarly believed that the CCN, UVA, GULC/GW school-funded positions have largely been employment gaming. I don't disbelieve you, but could you explain why you exactly you think these HYS positions are largely also BS? (Also, if I'm misunderstanding your argument, please explain.)

Thanks.

09042014
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby 09042014 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:12 pm

cahwc12 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Stop making excuses for Yale's employment BS. People working in internships aren't employed even if their school gives them a stipend.


You seem to know a lot more about this than I do (which is admittedly not much). I have always been under the impression that these school-funded positions at HYS have always been genuine, and are just a bit more plentiful due to biglaw contraction. I have similarly believed that the CCN, UVA, GULC/GW school-funded positions have largely been employment gaming. I don't disbelieve you, but could you explain why you exactly you think these HYS positions are largely also BS? (Also, if I'm misunderstanding your argument, please explain.)

Thanks.


They have genuine ones. Most t14 have genuine fellowships. But they are for 1-2% of the class. But they all suspiciously exploded in size when student employment dropped. They are nonjobs created to pretend their graduates all have jobs. It's basically unemployment insurance.

Why do you believe that when yale creates " more plentiful due to biglaw contraction" that is not juking the employment stats. But when "CCN, UVA, GULC/GW" does it, it is "employment gaming." You seem to believe that because it's Yale, it can't be wrong.

Stop riding Yale's nuts.

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BearState
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby BearState » Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:32 pm

I think DF and pedestrian are both right to point out how common this is becoming in law and other professions. I think its part of the broader effort to kill entry level employment in general. Many college grads wind up riding from unpaid internship to unpaid internship until they find something that pays sustainably or move in with parents. Some of this has got to do with the recession, but employers have got to be happy they can now demand years of 'fellowships' and 'internships' before they actually hire someone.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/06/busin ... liver.html

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sinfiery
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby sinfiery » Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:34 pm

I wish someone would explain the difference in NLJS250 data from its peak versus today at HYS.


Edit: nvm, just H. Damn, I wanted to help in the Yale bashing.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150004

09042014
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Re: USNEWS Employment Ranking Data = Bullshit

Postby 09042014 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:15 pm

BearState wrote:I think DF and pedestrian are both right to point out how common this is becoming in law and other professions. I think its part of the broader effort to kill entry level employment in general. Many college grads wind up riding from unpaid internship to unpaid internship until they find something that pays sustainably or move in with parents. Some of this has got to do with the recession, but employers have got to be happy they can now demand years of 'fellowships' and 'internships' before they actually hire someone.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/06/busin ... liver.html


Fellowships in other professions aren't usually limited to graduates from that university. And they definitely aren't just given to each student who just can't find a job. And fellowships are paid/funded.

Someone working for HUD in an INTERNSHIP who yale donates 10 dollars an hour to, isn't employed.




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