Michigan vs UCLA vs USC

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bullz23
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Michigan vs UCLA vs USC

Postby bullz23 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:07 am

Please weigh in on this. Im between these 3 schools at this point. Michigan and UCLA are at sticker price. USC offered me 20k/year. Could I get another 10-15k/yr out of them if I told them i got into Michigan and UCLA? Would it be worth the money? I definitely want to end up in big law. USC has a very attractive 5-year LRAP program for public interest workers, so that is a nice fall back option if I don't make the Big law cut, and the location is obviously a plus. Basically I am looking at 200k in debt from Michigan/UCLA, or 120k at USC. is the USC discount worth the difference in employment prospects? I also have difficulty seeing any justification for paying more money for UCLA as opposed to USC. Correct me if I am wrong, but the newest NLJ rankings has USC and UCLA ranked virtually identically in terms of NLJ 250 placement at 28% and 29% respectively, while Michigan places 38% plus superior clerkship placement. I am also considering taking 1 year off to do a paralegal internship. Is this worth my time considering I would have to reapply and possibly not be admitted to a T14 school the second time around? I haven't visited any campuses. The only real attraction to California is obviously the weather, but I feel as though this is a foolish criterion upon which to make such a major life decision. Are michigan's job prospects really worth taking out an extra 75-100k in loans and suffering through winters in the Midwest?

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: Michigan vs UCLA vs USC

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:17 am

USC and it's not really close given your prospects.

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BerkeleyBear
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Re: Michigan vs UCLA vs USC

Postby BerkeleyBear » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:18 am

Might as well try to get more money out of USC. Try negotiating with UCLA using USC's offer and see if USC will make a counter. I think 60K would justify passing up Michigan. If you can get more money out of SC then all the better. Visit the schools and see which you like the best. Maybe Michigan is where you belong. HTH. Good luck OP. Inb4 retake.

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Presidentjlh
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Re: Michigan vs UCLA vs USC

Postby Presidentjlh » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:22 am

Where are you from originally, and where would you like to practice?

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Dr. Dre
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Re: Michigan vs UCLA vs USC

Postby Dr. Dre » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:55 am

bullz23 wrote:The only real attraction to California is obviously the weather


really? don't go there.

midwest or east coast is where it's at.

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Lasers
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Re: Michigan vs UCLA vs USC

Postby Lasers » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:59 am

ucla is not even an option here, imo.

michigan or usc; if you can get a bit more money, usc becomes a no-brainer.

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BerkeleyBear
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Re: Michigan vs UCLA vs USC

Postby BerkeleyBear » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:00 am

Dr. Dre wrote:
bullz23 wrote:The only real attraction to California is obviously the weather


really? don't go there.

midwest or east coast is where it's at.


Doesn't USC place about the same as Michigan in terms of biglaw though? 60,000 dollars is a bunch of money.

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Lasers
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Re: Michigan vs UCLA vs USC

Postby Lasers » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:02 am

BerkeleyBear wrote:
Dr. Dre wrote:
bullz23 wrote:The only real attraction to California is obviously the weather


really? don't go there.

midwest or east coast is where it's at.


Doesn't USC place about the same as Michigan in terms of biglaw though? 60,000 dollars is a bunch of money.

similar enough that usc should be the choice here.

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BerkeleyBear
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Re: Michigan vs UCLA vs USC

Postby BerkeleyBear » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:07 am

Lasers wrote: similar enough that usc should be the choice here.


Yeah, just noticed in the OP that Michigan places 10% more. IMO, not enough to turn down $60,000 or maybe more.

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Lasers
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Re: Michigan vs UCLA vs USC

Postby Lasers » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:19 am

BerkeleyBear wrote:
Lasers wrote: similar enough that usc should be the choice here.


Yeah, just noticed in the OP that Michigan places 10% more. IMO, not enough to turn down $60,000 or maybe more.

it fluctuates year to year, too. i think they were virtually tied in last year's numbers. i would not be surprised if they are close once again next year.

Revolver066
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Re: Michigan vs UCLA vs USC

Postby Revolver066 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:10 am

USC or Michigan. I'd be seriously tempted to go to Michigan considering you're probably going to be well into 6 figure debt from either school, and Michigan has better employment numbers. Dont be fooled by just the NLJ 250 stats, look at clerkships and PI too (Personally I'd consider LRAP eligible PI to be a pretty good outcome, and I think Mich has a pretty decent LRAP). You do want biglaw though but I would guess that at least some of the PI kids could have gotten biglaw had they wanted it, and federal clerkship kids absolutely could have. Also, see this chart from Rayiner's great thread viewtopic.php?f=23&t=181723
Image

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ManOfTheMinute
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Re: Michigan vs UCLA vs USC

Postby ManOfTheMinute » Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:16 am

Revolver066 wrote:USC or Michigan. I'd be seriously tempted to go to Michigan considering you're probably going to be well into 6 figure debt from either school, and Michigan has better employment numbers. Dont be fooled by just the NLJ 250 stats, look at clerkships and PI too (Personally I'd consider LRAP eligible PI to be a pretty good outcome, and I think Mich has a pretty decent LRAP). You do want biglaw though but I would guess that at least some of the PI kids could have gotten biglaw had they wanted it, and federal clerkship kids absolutely could have. Also, see this chart from Rayiner's great thread viewtopic.php?f=23&t=181723
Image


Shit... wassup SLS

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Lasers
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Re: Michigan vs UCLA vs USC

Postby Lasers » Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:27 am

Revolver066 wrote:USC or Michigan. I'd be seriously tempted to go to Michigan considering you're probably going to be well into 6 figure debt from either school, and Michigan has better employment numbers. Dont be fooled by just the NLJ 250 stats, look at clerkships and PI too (Personally I'd consider LRAP eligible PI to be a pretty good outcome, and I think Mich has a pretty decent LRAP). You do want biglaw though but I would guess that at least some of the PI kids could have gotten biglaw had they wanted it, and federal clerkship kids absolutely could have. Also, see this chart from Rayiner's great thread viewtopic.php?f=23&t=181723
Image

hmm, that's pretty interesting. that's a lot of employment at small firms.

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eav1277
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Re: Michigan vs UCLA vs USC

Postby eav1277 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:40 am

USC is scaring me a little more after looking at that :(

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Lasers
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Re: Michigan vs UCLA vs USC

Postby Lasers » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:16 am

eav1277 wrote:USC is scaring me a little more after looking at that :(

yeah, can you imagine what the numbers look like for the schools below? yikes!

it's important to note, however, those charts didn't really tell us what we didn't already implicitly know. if you don't get biglaw or a clerkship, you're going to generally be left with "undesirable" employment. the only really scary thing that it shows is that it looks like ~18% of usc grads are unemployed. so michigan definitely offers better chances at any employment, but offers only a marginal advantage in "desirable" positions like biglaw and clerkships.

zman
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Re: Michigan vs UCLA vs USC

Postby zman » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:28 am

eav1277 wrote:USC is scaring me a little more after looking at that :(


they might hire more of their own like others. I guess they don't do enough of that.

Revolver066
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Re: Michigan vs UCLA vs USC

Postby Revolver066 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 12:16 pm

Lasers wrote:
eav1277 wrote:USC is scaring me a little more after looking at that :(

yeah, can you imagine what the numbers look like for the schools below? yikes!

it's important to note, however, those charts didn't really tell us what we didn't already implicitly know. if you don't get biglaw or a clerkship, you're going to generally be left with "undesirable" employment. the only really scary thing that it shows is that it looks like ~18% of usc grads are unemployed. so michigan definitely offers better chances at any employment, but offers only a marginal advantage in "desirable" positions like biglaw and clerkships.


I dunno man, when you're six figures in debt I think theres a HUGE difference between small firms likely paying 50-60k with no LRAP/PSLF help vs PI paying about the same but with 10 year forgiveness and a decent LRAP. You dont think PSLF eligible employment with a decent LRAP is desirable? I would agree though that the career paths of PI is pretty different from biglaw though, so I dont know how much of a fallback these positions really are and if they speak to placement power of Michigan generally.

According to LST, Mich put about 18.5 percent into PI/Govt, whereas USC put around 6 percent into PI/Govt. But the new ABA numbers should come out soon so be sure to take a good look at those. With the small class size of USC they are prone to bigger shifts, though they did fall in NLJ 250 this year while Mich rose.

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Lasers
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Re: Michigan vs UCLA vs USC

Postby Lasers » Tue Mar 12, 2013 5:21 pm

Revolver066 wrote:
Lasers wrote:
eav1277 wrote:USC is scaring me a little more after looking at that :(

yeah, can you imagine what the numbers look like for the schools below? yikes!

it's important to note, however, those charts didn't really tell us what we didn't already implicitly know. if you don't get biglaw or a clerkship, you're going to generally be left with "undesirable" employment. the only really scary thing that it shows is that it looks like ~18% of usc grads are unemployed. so michigan definitely offers better chances at any employment, but offers only a marginal advantage in "desirable" positions like biglaw and clerkships.


I dunno man, when you're six figures in debt I think theres a HUGE difference between small firms likely paying 50-60k with no LRAP/PSLF help vs PI paying about the same but with 10 year forgiveness and a decent LRAP. You dont think PSLF eligible employment with a decent LRAP is desirable? I would agree though that the career paths of PI is pretty different from biglaw though, so I dont know how much of a fallback these positions really are and if they speak to placement power of Michigan generally.

According to LST, Mich put about 18.5 percent into PI/Govt, whereas USC put around 6 percent into PI/Govt. But the new ABA numbers should come out soon so be sure to take a good look at those. With the small class size of USC they are prone to bigger shifts, though they did fall in NLJ 250 this year while Mich rose.

i think it depends on what someone wants. hell, i have a problem with small firms being characterized as "undesirable" too. and yeah, the ABA numbers should really help with someone trying to make a decision.

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megagnarley
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Re: Michigan vs UCLA vs USC

Postby megagnarley » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:27 am

If you don't care about CA I'd go Mich. You're going to need biglaw either way.

swc27
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Re: Michigan vs UCLA vs USC

Postby swc27 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:13 am

Worth noting that UMich's LRAP is income-based, not placement-based (so even if you're at a small firm or a large firm in a small market, as long as you're making less than about $80K, you're covered).

curious66
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Re: Michigan vs UCLA vs USC

Postby curious66 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:26 am

megagnarley wrote:If you don't care about CA I'd go Mich. You're going to need biglaw either way.


Actually, Michigan fairs decently in CA.. given it is not a home market.

fallingup
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Re: Michigan vs UCLA vs USC

Postby fallingup » Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:48 am

I got to accepted to these 3 schools as well, and I also got the 20K offer at USC. However, UCLA gave me 25K. I would suggest that you try negotiating with UCLA before crossing them off your list since it appears we are similar candidates.

ETA: I am also interested in hearing more responses on this as I am considering Michigan sticker over UCLA with scholarship, despite wanting to work in CA biglaw.

curious66
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Re: Michigan vs UCLA vs USC

Postby curious66 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:58 am

fallingup wrote:I got to accepted to these 3 schools as well, and I also got the 20K offer at USC. However, UCLA gave me 25K. I would suggest that you try negotiating with UCLA before crossing them off your list since it appears we are similar candidates.

ETA: I am also interested in hearing more responses on this as I am considering Michigan sticker over UCLA with scholarship, despite wanting to work in CA biglaw.


I heard UCLA places well in southern Cal.. but no so much in northern Cal. If you are 100% certain on CA, then UCLA/USC with scholly makes sense. Michigan has national reach and better rep, more recruiters come to OCI etc.. but again, it does not serve just CA.

swc27
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Re: Michigan vs UCLA vs USC

Postby swc27 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:59 am

Also-- Michigan will entertain competing offers from other schools, especially if they (Michigan) didn't offer you anything to begin with. I started out with $0 and presented competing offers from USC, UCLA, TX, Vandy, and WashU and got $12K/yr. It's not a lot, but it helps.

fallingup
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Re: Michigan vs UCLA vs USC

Postby fallingup » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:03 am

swc27 wrote:Also-- Michigan will entertain competing offers from other schools, especially if they (Michigan) didn't offer you anything to begin with. I started out with $0 and presented competing offers from USC, UCLA, TX, Vandy, and WashU and got $12K/yr. It's not a lot, but it helps.


Thank you, this is very helpful information.




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