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20141023
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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby 20141023 » Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:59 pm

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Last edited by 20141023 on Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

04102014
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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby 04102014 » Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:04 pm

john7234797 wrote:
kappycaft1 wrote:Although I chose to begin working after college, I have numerous friends that decided to go the K-JD route. I was recently talking with one of them (he went to HLS) about some random stuff, and we somehow got on the topic of prestige and rankings. He mentioned that prestige and rank are both much more important than most lawyers want to admit, but perhaps for the wrong reasons. He said that when law firms go to bid on jobs, clients are often drawn to firms that offer a team of "prestigious" lawyers. The uninformed clients will be awed by names such as Harvard and Yale, but often not even know the difference between the University of Michigan and Michigan State University. I talked with another friend who went to a T20 school a couple of days later and he affirmed what I had been told by our other friend. Accordingly, it sounds like prestige and rank are "important" mainly to clients, but because clients are the source of money, law firms also must be prestige whores to win bids.

I was just wondering if any of you TLS-ers who are done with law school could confirm/deny this, and also provide any additional insight into the role of prestige and rankings in the legal field.


LOL. Maybe if you grew up at an East Coast Prep School where you believe any "[State] University" is complete shit. But anyone in the Midwest knows that Michigan >>>>> Michigan State and that it's not even comparable.

At times I think I should move to New York if I want to do this whole lawyer thing.. but yeah, having people assume I'm an idiot for going to my state's flagship for UG instead of some over-priced private school just because SUNY-whatever is pretty mediocre is pretty unappealing. Judging by the amount of people who put "prestigious UG" as a soft in the OCI thread, I'm guessing this is very much a thing among lawyers.


Unfortunately this is very true of the East Coast. Michigan also falls victim the general coastal bias that pervades US education--you'll notice that with all of this "omg Berkeley" talk, nobody has mentioned that Michigan's graduate programs are in the top ten for basically everything.

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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby J-e-L-L-o » Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:29 am

ohpobrecito wrote:Unfortunately this is very true of the East Coast. Michigan also falls victim the general coastal bias that pervades US education--you'll notice that with all of this "omg Berkeley" talk, nobody has mentioned that Michigan's graduate programs are in the top ten for basically everything.



Berkeley and Michigan are the true public Ivies.

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Crowing
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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby Crowing » Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:26 am

ohpobrecito wrote:
john7234797 wrote:
kappycaft1 wrote:Although I chose to begin working after college, I have numerous friends that decided to go the K-JD route. I was recently talking with one of them (he went to HLS) about some random stuff, and we somehow got on the topic of prestige and rankings. He mentioned that prestige and rank are both much more important than most lawyers want to admit, but perhaps for the wrong reasons. He said that when law firms go to bid on jobs, clients are often drawn to firms that offer a team of "prestigious" lawyers. The uninformed clients will be awed by names such as Harvard and Yale, but often not even know the difference between the University of Michigan and Michigan State University. I talked with another friend who went to a T20 school a couple of days later and he affirmed what I had been told by our other friend. Accordingly, it sounds like prestige and rank are "important" mainly to clients, but because clients are the source of money, law firms also must be prestige whores to win bids.

I was just wondering if any of you TLS-ers who are done with law school could confirm/deny this, and also provide any additional insight into the role of prestige and rankings in the legal field.


LOL. Maybe if you grew up at an East Coast Prep School where you believe any "[State] University" is complete shit. But anyone in the Midwest knows that Michigan >>>>> Michigan State and that it's not even comparable.

At times I think I should move to New York if I want to do this whole lawyer thing.. but yeah, having people assume I'm an idiot for going to my state's flagship for UG instead of some over-priced private school just because SUNY-whatever is pretty mediocre is pretty unappealing. Judging by the amount of people who put "prestigious UG" as a soft in the OCI thread, I'm guessing this is very much a thing among lawyers.


Unfortunately this is very true of the East Coast. Michigan also falls victim the general coastal bias that pervades US education--you'll notice that with all of this "omg Berkeley" talk, nobody has mentioned that Michigan's graduate programs are in the top ten for basically everything.


I live in Missouri and nobody gives a fuck about Michigan here - not its law school, undergrad, other programs, or even its sports.

HTH

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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby gaucholaw » Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:58 am

No UVA love :wink:

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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby Lasers » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:00 am

jetsfan1 wrote:
So yes, prestige matters. USNWR doesn't


So question... If you had to rerank the T14 in terms of prestige, would it change much? Prestige in terms of the layman who doesn't know much about law school. I know for me, before I started doing my research, I would have told you Georgetown has a better law school than Michigan, NYU, Boalt, etc. Obviously, thats not the case. So if clients want prestige, and they perceive it in a skewed way, does this somehow make a school like Georgetown more valuable?

Just for fun, here is my "T14" as I remember thinking it was before I started researching law schools (not that I knew there was a T14 or that this ranking is based on anything more than a college kid's vague knowledge of law schools)

1) The Thomas M. Cooley School of Law (kidding)

1) Harvard
2) Yale
3) Columbia
4) Stanford
5) Chicago
6) UVA
7) Georgetown
8) Duke (probably solely bc of Tucker Max haha)
9) Penn
10) Northwestern
11) Vanderbilt (no idea why)

... and beyond that I really had no idea. But I think what this illustrates is how much the general public doesn't know about law school, so if prestige, as understood by clients, is such an important factor, than I imagine there are tons of biases there. Out of curiosity, anyone else have a school that they thought was super prestigious until they actually started looking at law schools? My Georgetown/Vandy?

if you want accurate rankings for prestige, you need to take into account specific regions.

that list would be a joke if you tried to sell that as a ranking of prestige from the perspective of laypersons on the west coast. in CA, stanford would be above columbia, and it wouldn't be close. in fact, stanford would probably be #1 or #2. also, berkeley would probably be 5th or 6th if not higher and schools like ucla/usc would definitely take spots somewhere in the top 14.

20141023
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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby 20141023 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 8:20 am

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Last edited by 20141023 on Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby jetsfan1 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:13 am

that list would be a joke if you tried to sell that as a ranking of prestige from the perspective of laypersons on the west coast. in CA, stanford would be above columbia, and it wouldn't be close. in fact, stanford would probably be #1 or #2. also, berkeley would probably be 5th or 6th if not higher and schools like ucla/usc would definitely take spots somewhere in the top 14.


Completely agree. I'm from the east coast as you can probably tell haha.

jetsfan1 was just stating the list of schools in order of prestige as he perceived it before he started researching law schools; he wasn't stating that the above was any sort of "official ranking" or anything.


Exactly. And pretty much everything kappycaft1 said below this is pretty accurate, I would think. (Except USC has a pretty nice rep on the east coast, at least around me).

The one thing I would add, is I think academic "prestige", for schools outside your region, is to some extent tied to athletics. This could be because of my bias as a huge sports fan, but I knew about Cali schools, such as UCLA and USC, with good athletics, more than I knew about Berkeley or Cal Tech (talking UG here). I think its bc you hear about these schools so much in the media, and you tend to hear how good they are academically as well. But growing up, I never heard about Cal Tech (Berkeley I had a bit), and therefore didn't really know if it was a good school or not.

Again, this could be totally off for most people, but for me this was definitely a factor.

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Lasers
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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby Lasers » Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:52 pm

jetsfan1 wrote:
that list would be a joke if you tried to sell that as a ranking of prestige from the perspective of laypersons on the west coast. in CA, stanford would be above columbia, and it wouldn't be close. in fact, stanford would probably be #1 or #2. also, berkeley would probably be 5th or 6th if not higher and schools like ucla/usc would definitely take spots somewhere in the top 14.


Completely agree. I'm from the east coast as you can probably tell haha.

jetsfan1 was just stating the list of schools in order of prestige as he perceived it before he started researching law schools; he wasn't stating that the above was any sort of "official ranking" or anything.


Exactly. And pretty much everything kappycaft1 said below this is pretty accurate, I would think. (Except USC has a pretty nice rep on the east coast, at least around me).

The one thing I would add, is I think academic "prestige", for schools outside your region, is to some extent tied to athletics. This could be because of my bias as a huge sports fan, but I knew about Cali schools, such as UCLA and USC, with good athletics, more than I knew about Berkeley or Cal Tech (talking UG here). I think its bc you hear about these schools so much in the media, and you tend to hear how good they are academically as well. But growing up, I never heard about Cal Tech (Berkeley I had a bit), and therefore didn't really know if it was a good school or not.

Again, this could be totally off for most people, but for me this was definitely a factor.

yep, i was gonna say that. people know about duke on the west coast because of its basketball, for example, and i'm sure usc is known on the east partly because of its football prowess. random, non-law related things do quite a bit for a school's prestige in the eyes of laypersons.

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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby utlaw2007 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:28 pm

yep, i was gonna say that. people know about duke on the west coast because of its basketball, for example, and i'm sure usc is known on the east partly because of its football prowess. random, non-law related things do quite a bit for a school's prestige in the eyes of laypersons.


I would agree that sports does a lot for a school's prestige outside the region. I went to Michigan for undergrad. But I am from Texas. I knew that Michigan was good, academically. I didn't know how good until I arrived in Ann Arbor. The same can be said for UCLA because of the attention both schools' football programs received in Texas.

Their football programs allowed the schools to be highlighted for their strengths in a state not at all associated with those regions.

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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby utlaw2007 » Mon Mar 11, 2013 4:47 pm

But yes, regional prestige is HUGE. SMU and U of H Law Center have great reps here in Texas. And UT's rep is off the charts in Texas. That's the main reason why I chose UT over Michigan for law school. Michigan was my first choice for a long time, but then I switched it to Texas because I knew I wanted to be home. And you can count on one hand missing three fingers the number of law schools that have better lay prestige than UT Law in Texas.

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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby danquayle » Tue Mar 12, 2013 7:39 pm

Crowing wrote:
ohpobrecito wrote:
john7234797 wrote:
kappycaft1 wrote:Although I chose to begin working after college, I have numerous friends that decided to go the K-JD route. I was recently talking with one of them (he went to HLS) about some random stuff, and we somehow got on the topic of prestige and rankings. He mentioned that prestige and rank are both much more important than most lawyers want to admit, but perhaps for the wrong reasons. He said that when law firms go to bid on jobs, clients are often drawn to firms that offer a team of "prestigious" lawyers. The uninformed clients will be awed by names such as Harvard and Yale, but often not even know the difference between the University of Michigan and Michigan State University. I talked with another friend who went to a T20 school a couple of days later and he affirmed what I had been told by our other friend. Accordingly, it sounds like prestige and rank are "important" mainly to clients, but because clients are the source of money, law firms also must be prestige whores to win bids.

I was just wondering if any of you TLS-ers who are done with law school could confirm/deny this, and also provide any additional insight into the role of prestige and rankings in the legal field.


LOL. Maybe if you grew up at an East Coast Prep School where you believe any "[State] University" is complete shit. But anyone in the Midwest knows that Michigan >>>>> Michigan State and that it's not even comparable.

At times I think I should move to New York if I want to do this whole lawyer thing.. but yeah, having people assume I'm an idiot for going to my state's flagship for UG instead of some over-priced private school just because SUNY-whatever is pretty mediocre is pretty unappealing. Judging by the amount of people who put "prestigious UG" as a soft in the OCI thread, I'm guessing this is very much a thing among lawyers.


Unfortunately this is very true of the East Coast. Michigan also falls victim the general coastal bias that pervades US education--you'll notice that with all of this "omg Berkeley" talk, nobody has mentioned that Michigan's graduate programs are in the top ten for basically everything.


I live in Missouri and nobody gives a fuck about Michigan here - not its law school, undergrad, other programs, or even its sports.

HTH


No one anywhere gives a fuck about you.

Thx




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