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EvilClinton
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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby EvilClinton » Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:19 pm

stuckinthemiddle wrote:
LSATSCORES2012 wrote:Berkeley is actually, overall, an exception to this rule (on an international scale, anyway). Internationally, Berkeley has a better reputation than Yale, Princeton, Oxford, Columbia, and Chicago. Not specific to the legal field, of course.

I'm curious as to what the results would be domestically.


Whaaaat? Definitely not. I've spent a large chunk of my life outside the US and nobody even knows what Berkeley is.

Internationally, I'd say Oxbridge and the Ivies (minus Dartmouth and to some extent Brown) are the only ones that people know of. This is just based on personal experience of course.

lol....by all means lets trust your anecdotal knowledge over scientific polling

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romothesavior
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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby romothesavior » Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:26 pm

LSATSCORES2012 wrote:Internationally, Berkeley has a better reputation than Yale, Princeton, Oxford, Columbia, and Chicago. Not specific to the legal field, of course.

wot m8

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thelawyler
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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby thelawyler » Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:27 pm

stuckinthemiddle wrote:
LSATSCORES2012 wrote:Berkeley is actually, overall, an exception to this rule (on an international scale, anyway). Internationally, Berkeley has a better reputation than Yale, Princeton, Oxford, Columbia, and Chicago. Not specific to the legal field, of course.

I'm curious as to what the results would be domestically.


Whaaaat? Definitely not. I've spent a large chunk of my life outside the US and nobody even knows what Berkeley is.

Internationally, I'd say Oxbridge and the Ivies (minus Dartmouth and to some extent Brown) are the only ones that people know of. This is just based on personal experience of course.


Well you can tell which of these polls have an Asia bias based on the west coast bias.

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pedestrian
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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby pedestrian » Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:34 pm

stuckinthemiddle wrote:
LSATSCORES2012 wrote:Berkeley is actually, overall, an exception to this rule (on an international scale, anyway). Internationally, Berkeley has a better reputation than Yale, Princeton, Oxford, Columbia, and Chicago. Not specific to the legal field, of course.

I'm curious as to what the results would be domestically.


Whaaaat? Definitely not. I've spent a large chunk of my life outside the US and nobody even knows what Berkeley is.

Internationally, I'd say Oxbridge and the Ivies (minus Dartmouth and to some extent Brown) are the only ones that people know of. This is just based on personal experience of course.


Yeah, just looking at the list it seems a bit science-heavy. MIT, Berkeley and Michigan have great reputations for research and that has a large international impact because scientific researchers collaborate across borders more than academics in the humanities and other traditional pre-law disciplines.

20 per cent of respondents hail from the physical sciences, a figure matched by engineering and technology, with 19 per cent from the social sciences, 17 per cent from clinical subjects, 16 per cent from the life sciences and 7 per cent from the arts and humanities.


There is nothing wrong with that sample per se, but it won't give you a good measure of law school reputations, or even "international lay prestige."

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:47 pm

Yeah, I was wondering to what extent the Berkeley rep was a science thing. Which again gets back to prestige being dependent on region/context. But as a number of people have pointed out, prestige is only relevant to the extent it feeds directly into employment opportunities.

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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby andy261 » Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:53 pm

stuckinthemiddle wrote:
LSATSCORES2012 wrote:Berkeley is actually, overall, an exception to this rule (on an international scale, anyway). Internationally, Berkeley has a better reputation than Yale, Princeton, Oxford, Columbia, and Chicago. Not specific to the legal field, of course.

I'm curious as to what the results would be domestically.


Whaaaat? Definitely not. I've spent a large chunk of my life outside the US and nobody even knows what Berkeley is.

Internationally, I'd say Oxbridge and the Ivies (minus Dartmouth and to some extent Brown) are the only ones that people know of. This is just based on personal experience of course.

I don't know where you've traveled, but from my experiences traveling around the world, the only schools that might be more recognized than Berkeley besides H are YP, Oxbridge, and maybe MIT. Even our rival across the Bay Stanford doesn't have the same international recognition. Anyways though, it's interesting to see how different West Coast and East Coast perception of lay prestige is. As a lifelong West Coaster, I never knew UVA, Vandy, Northwestern, etc. had such prestigious law schools before the whole application process. /endrant Go Bears!

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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby 20141023 » Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:04 pm

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Last edited by 20141023 on Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby Real Madrid » Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:08 pm

stuckinthemiddle wrote:
LSATSCORES2012 wrote:Berkeley is actually, overall, an exception to this rule (on an international scale, anyway). Internationally, Berkeley has a better reputation than Yale, Princeton, Oxford, Columbia, and Chicago. Not specific to the legal field, of course.

I'm curious as to what the results would be domestically.


Whaaaat? Definitely not. I've spent a large chunk of my life outside the US and nobody even knows what Berkeley is.

Internationally, I'd say Oxbridge and the Ivies (minus Dartmouth and to some extent Brown) are the only ones that people know of. This is just based on personal experience of course.


Having spent the last two years in Europe, I can tell you that virtually no one I've encountered knows what a "Cornell" is or what a "Penn" is. They have, however, heard of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, Stanford and Berkeley (and in many cases Georgetown). This is just my personal experience, of course.

Berkeley is a bit unique in the sense that while its undergrad is very good, it actually excels more with its graduate schools. I think something like 97% are in the top ten in their fields.
Last edited by Real Madrid on Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

rad lulz
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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby rad lulz » Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:12 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:Just for the record, I never meant to insinuate that prestige of USNWR should be a factor in one's decision of where they go to law school; rather, I just wanted to point out that prestige, and thereby the USNWR to some extent (which over the years have sort of "created" the prestige laymen know) are actually tangible things.

So this thread is pretty much pointless? Got it.

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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby somewhatwayward » Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:12 pm

rad lulz wrote:
RPK34 wrote:
Big Dog wrote:
So yes, prestige matters. USNWR doesn't



This is a common refrain on TLS. But how can you separate the two?


USNWR is generally a decent indicator of prestige. Regional variations can matter (like I'm sure UCLA/USC is much more prestigious in So. Cal than in Chicago, and Notre Dame is much more prestigious in Chicago than So. Cal). In general, USNWR does a pretty decent job tracking employment outcomes as well.

But caring about annual movement in rankings is the dumb part. If Penn drops to 11 this year, it isn't going to be seen as any less prestigious by employers. If Washington and Lee moves up to 15th, no one is going to see it as anymore prestigious.

--LinkRemoved--

USNWR does a shit job of tracking employment outcomes

Also, why not just use, I dunno, ACTUAL employment outcomes?


LOL +1

Real Madrid
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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby Real Madrid » Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:18 pm

I also really don't understand the point of this thread.

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danquayle
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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby danquayle » Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:32 pm

thelawyler wrote:I've heard that it is often the in-house legal council of the huge clients that hire outside counsel, and those attorneys are very aware of which schools are good.

I just got sniped by dixiecup.


I'm actually in house and have used outside counsel and I'm telling you the first thing I do if I encounter someone from a law school I haven't encountered before I go to US News to see how strong they are generally. I'm not saying US News is really accurate or that prestige is even the end all be all. But I'm going to have higher expectations from someone from Pepperdine than I would Oregon. Which is especially stupid considering IIRC Oregon was higher than Pepperdine when I was in law school. But for many people, its just a short hand easy way to make quick decisions.

That said, I'm always going to assume someone from Harvard is more capable than someone from Penn than someone from Michigan State. Which often ends up being completely inaccurate... one of my favorites came from NY Law. But if we're talking starting points, what else can I rely on?

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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby NYstate » Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:34 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:Just for the record, I never meant to insinuate that prestige of USNWR should be a factor in one's decision of where they go to law school; rather, I just wanted to point out that prestige, and thereby the USNWR to some extent (which over the years have sort of "created" the prestige laymen know) are actually tangible things. I understand that the GC at companies usually do the selecting of law firms to represent them, but I do not necessarily think that just because someone is a lawyer means that they are "informed." A lot of the shitboomers in my company's GC graduated what TLS would consider "shitty law schools," and when I was talking with them recently, I didn't get the feeling that they had a good grasp on the current law school situation. Some of them even seemed as uninformed as the average layman.

Regarding Berkeley, a lot of my friends in Japan certainly knew about the school, but their image of it was not as some incredibly intelligent international research center, but rather as a public school where any dumbass Japanese person could study abroad if they wanted to irregardless of their home institution in Japan. This certainly isn't completely true, but that is the image they all had of Berk.


The senior partners at firms have no idea what is happening with law school and neither do the GC. They may know more because of the recent news articles, but I would bet that most of the partners at my firm have no idea what the COA is at a top school now. That doesn't mean they don't know who the best lawyers are in their areas. That doesn't mean they don't know which schools they want to hire from and what type of people they are looking to hire. (edit to add: I had lunch with a partner from another firm who actually does interviewing for Chicago and she had no idea how much Chicago costs. )

The GC is just reviewing the bills and approving staffing, they aren't involved in firm hiring. Don't confuse their lack of knowledge about the law school scam with a lack of knowledge about who they are willing to pay for. Also, a lot of boomers are just going to tell you to go to law school because they have no idea what employment is like right now. When they went to school, they could maybe make a living no matter where they went. And they didn't have to work at a top firm just to repay loans.

My Mom graduated from law school in 1982. She owed less than $20,000 total. Her first job in NYC paid around $70,000. She can't really relate to the present costs. ( she stopped practicing a long time ago.)

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Renne Walker
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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby Renne Walker » Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:41 pm

USNWR is an anomaly given that few things are given such great importance and deemed factual based on one yearly judgment.

Not implying that this is a bad thing — their verdict preserves order inasmuch as there are rarely any notable deviations in the hierarchy. For those who prefer consistency and abhor change, USNWR is a dream come true.

For those (schools, applicants, firms, recruiters, etc.) who believe the rankings are significant, they are. I may not agree with their methodology but I like the fact that I know #6 isn’t going to come in at #16 next year.

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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby danquayle » Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:46 pm

Renne Walker wrote:USNWR is an anomaly given that few things are given such great importance and deemed factual based on one yearly judgment.

Not implying that this is a bad thing — their verdict preserves order inasmuch as there are rarely any notable deviations in the hierarchy. For those who prefer consistency and abhor change, USNWR is a dream come true.

For those (schools, applicants, firms, recruiters, etc.) who believe the rankings are significant, they are. I may not agree with their methodology but I like the fact that I know #6 isn’t going to come in at #16 next year.


I've beaten this to death in these threads, but US News matters for the trends. Not the yearly positioning. If ASU is down to 50th next week, it won't mean jack all that it was in the 20s for a brief moment. But if it stays 25 for a decade and the people who are used to seeing it as the #25 law school slowly move into hiring positions... their perceptions will be influenced and will have an impact.

But it takes a real tangible improvement to the law school itself to make such a long lasting change to your rank. People are right that US News gets it wrong from a snap shot point of view. But they absolutely nail it if you aggregate over years.

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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby jrf12886 » Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:01 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:...But as a number of people have pointed out, prestige is only relevant to the extent it feeds directly into employment opportunities.


What about picking up girls/guys? Can't forget about that.

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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby 20141023 » Sun Mar 10, 2013 3:08 pm

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Last edited by 20141023 on Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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somewhatwayward
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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby somewhatwayward » Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:17 pm

I think I mentioned this in some thread recently, but I have posted in so many (3L procrastinating on the shitton of work I have to do......) that I don't remember which one.

Anyway, I think the 30-and-under generation is more obsessed with achievement and prestige for prestige's sake than prior generations. I can't say what is driving this exactly although I do know that our generation is the most narcissistic generation (all generations' narcissism is increasing, though). Narcissists want others to admire and envy them, but they don't care whether people are admiring them for a true accomplishment/trait or the illusion of an accomplishment/trait (eg, a narcissist is content to just get liposuction and collect compliments about her hot bod and would see no value in eating healthy and exercising to accomplish the same goal). I was using the term 'a narcissist' for the ease of communication as if it is a black-and-white category, but it is not. Just like all personality traits, we all have some degree of it, and I think the fact that levels of narcissism are increasing overall is affecting us all because it infuses our culture and values. Even if you aren't that narcissistic to start with, when you spend years absorbing a culture with narcissistic undertones, you start to absorb those values. Narcissism is particularly infectious because we all have some amount of natural self-centeredness that developed evolutionarily, which can easily be aroused (ie, we can relate to narcissistic behaviors even if we simultaneously disapprove), and, when you observe other people around you being self-centered and disregarding humility/thinking of others, it is easier for you to do it, too.

Obsession with prestige for prestige's sake is quintessential narcissism. The only purpose of it is to use something outside your self (an institution, a company, maybe another person) to try to make other people admire or envy you or, at least, think highly of you, solely because of your affiliation with that institution/company/person. But I don't think the fact that every 0L comes on here with a narcissistic obsession with prestige and rankings says anything bad about them because, like I said, it's in the air and in the water. Plus, for whatever reason, lawyers do seem to care about prestige way, way more than they should. It is just that they also care about other things that the 0Ls aren't attuned to yet. Anyone who has been in law school should know how it feels to be sucked into a culture that values people for what they do (being in the top 10%, writing onto law review, winning moot court, getting a prestigious job, etc) rather than for who they are, so I don't mean to imply that all of us in law school are somehow immune from this. From a self-interested perspective, the system of making assumptions about people based on the institutions they are affiliated with is good for me.

I also think this increasing obsession with prestige is part of the reason we have way, way more people getting BAs than probably should get them. Now your shoe salesman, your barista, and your cab driver all have a BA. Everyone feels like they need to aim for the BA, even when a technical degree in something would better serve them and be cheaper. I have talked to guidance counselors who tell me that the principals tell them to encourage every kid to go to a four-year college, even kids who are barely handling high school academically. They say kids and parents are offended if you suggest a vocation. Now I am not one of those people saying blue-collar work is the answer to all the problems facing our generation. But when someone with a technical degree that took nine months to complete can make more than the BA who is driving a cab, you have to wonder why people are making this decision over and over. I believe it is a combination of misinformation and narcissistic prestige-seeking. Anyway, that is probably enough blather for now.....maybe I will try to go read PR?

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:33 pm

Why do you think the 30-and-unders are so much more obsessed with prestige than in the past (that is, I'm not looking for the reason behind it, but your evidence for this observation)?

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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:18 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:Why do you think the 30-and-unders are so much more obsessed with prestige than in the past (that is, I'm not looking for the reason behind it, but your evidence for this observation)?

Yeah, I am extremely skeptical of this claim.

People are getting BAs because it's the tried and true path to success. They continue to do it despite worsening outcomes because it takes a long time to change conventional wisdom, and because nobody knows what else to do at 18. I don't think it has much to do with prestige, or at any rate, no more to do with prestige than it ever has for any generation. In fact, I think that 50 years ago when the Ivy League was a boys' club for legacies, getting a fancy degree was much more about prestige and signaling than it is today.

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J-e-L-L-o
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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby J-e-L-L-o » Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:23 pm

stuckinthemiddle wrote:
LSATSCORES2012 wrote:Berkeley is actually, overall, an exception to this rule (on an international scale, anyway). Internationally, Berkeley has a better reputation than Yale, Princeton, Oxford, Columbia, and Chicago. Not specific to the legal field, of course.

I'm curious as to what the results would be domestically.


Whaaaat? Definitely not. I've spent a large chunk of my life outside the US and nobody even knows what Berkeley is.

Internationally, I'd say Oxbridge and the Ivies (minus Dartmouth and to some extent Brown) are the only ones that people know of. This is just based on personal experience of course.


If you are into the math and sciences then you will know what Berkley is about. They have top 5 programs across the board: Physics Math Engineering Economics Chemistry....

http://www.berkeley.edu/news/features/nobel/#alums

According to Wiki, Berkley stands at #5 for lifetime Nobel Prize Winners. Just after Chicago and MIT
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_No ... ffiliation

As to why you dont hear about professional grads as much (Law, Business) maybe it's because of the different culture and they self select to what their region does best -invent new shit and start ups that take over the world. California is its own market and they need firms to service that need. LA is the entertainment capital of the world. There is also lots of trade between the Pacific. But these industries can't hold a candle to the multi trillion dollar banking and finance centered on the East Coast.

HYS are the big dogs for stepping stones into the elite of business and politics. But Cali students usually don't want to go that route.

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Redamon1
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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby Redamon1 » Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:16 pm

stuckinthemiddle wrote:
LSATSCORES2012 wrote:Berkeley is actually, overall, an exception to this rule (on an international scale, anyway). Internationally, Berkeley has a better reputation than Yale, Princeton, Oxford, Columbia, and Chicago. Not specific to the legal field, of course.

I'm curious as to what the results would be domestically.


Whaaaat? Definitely not. I've spent a large chunk of my life outside the US and nobody even knows what Berkeley is.

Internationally, I'd say Oxbridge and the Ivies (minus Dartmouth and to some extent Brown) are the only ones that people know of. This is just based on personal experience of course.


Not sure what planet you live on.

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star fox
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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby star fox » Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:34 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:Although I chose to begin working after college, I have numerous friends that decided to go the K-JD route. I was recently talking with one of them (he went to HLS) about some random stuff, and we somehow got on the topic of prestige and rankings. He mentioned that prestige and rank are both much more important than most lawyers want to admit, but perhaps for the wrong reasons. He said that when law firms go to bid on jobs, clients are often drawn to firms that offer a team of "prestigious" lawyers. The uninformed clients will be awed by names such as Harvard and Yale, but often not even know the difference between the University of Michigan and Michigan State University. I talked with another friend who went to a T20 school a couple of days later and he affirmed what I had been told by our other friend. Accordingly, it sounds like prestige and rank are "important" mainly to clients, but because clients are the source of money, law firms also must be prestige whores to win bids.

I was just wondering if any of you TLS-ers who are done with law school could confirm/deny this, and also provide any additional insight into the role of prestige and rankings in the legal field.


LOL. Maybe if you grew up at an East Coast Prep School where you believe any "[State] University" is complete shit. But anyone in the Midwest knows that Michigan >>>>> Michigan State and that it's not even comparable.

At times I think I should move to New York if I want to do this whole lawyer thing.. but yeah, having people assume I'm an idiot for going to my state's flagship for UG instead of some over-priced private school just because SUNY-whatever is pretty mediocre is pretty unappealing. Judging by the amount of people who put "prestigious UG" as a soft in the OCI thread, I'm guessing this is very much a thing among lawyers.

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Renne Walker
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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby Renne Walker » Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:51 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:.... from an aspie that is heading to UChicago this fall.


I surmise you are heading to C because of USNWR and not because of the weather. Rationally, one attends a T14 because the belief is that the firms with the biggest checkbooks will show up at OCI and reel in the (best-of-the-best) candidates. As far as prestige, yeah, probably looks great on the firm bio page that their practice is so fantastic that the top law grads in the nation choose their firm. But, keep in mind that many of the head honchoes at these firms are grads from some tier 2. Doubt if they are impressed with “prestige.” On the other hand if the chairwomen is from C and so are you…. doesn’t get better than that!

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J-e-L-L-o
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Re: Why "Prestige" and the USNWR Rankings Matter

Postby J-e-L-L-o » Sun Mar 10, 2013 6:58 pm

Redamon1 wrote:
stuckinthemiddle wrote:
LSATSCORES2012 wrote:Berkeley is actually, overall, an exception to this rule (on an international scale, anyway). Internationally, Berkeley has a better reputation than Yale, Princeton, Oxford, Columbia, and Chicago. Not specific to the legal field, of course.

I'm curious as to what the results would be domestically.


Whaaaat? Definitely not. I've spent a large chunk of my life outside the US and nobody even knows what Berkeley is.

Internationally, I'd say Oxbridge and the Ivies (minus Dartmouth and to some extent Brown) are the only ones that people know of. This is just based on personal experience of course.


Not sure what planet you live on.



LOL




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