What COA would you be okay with for Chicago?

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What COA would you be okay with for Chicago?

$0
5
4%
$40,000
1
1%
$60,000
4
3%
$80,000
12
10%
$100,000
20
17%
$150,000
41
34%
>$200,000
38
31%
 
Total votes: 121

Ti Malice
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Re: What COA would you be okay with for Chicago?

Postby Ti Malice » Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:03 pm

talesofyore wrote:
Ti Malice wrote:
superdingle2000 wrote:

What makes it understandable with HYS? Can't you also get sick, fired, or end up hating the job? And I think Biglaw chances are virtually the same, right?


To your last question: No.



Can you speak more on that please?


There's not all that much to say about it, really. Firms will hire considerably deeper into YHS classes than they will Chicago's class.

Ti Malice
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Re: What COA would you be okay with for Chicago?

Postby Ti Malice » Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:06 pm

adoseofwendy wrote:
Ti Malice wrote:
adoseofwendy wrote:Just got a half-tuition scholarship for U Chicago with guaranteed LRAP. How big of an impact will 75k debt make on my life? I was interested in going the PI route.


Your living expenses will be covered?


No I'll have to take out loans to cover cost of living.


In that case, you need to think of your pre-interest debt as $135-150K.

talesofyore
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Re: What COA would you be okay with for Chicago?

Postby talesofyore » Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:14 pm

Ti Malice wrote:
talesofyore wrote:
Ti Malice wrote:
superdingle2000 wrote:

What makes it understandable with HYS? Can't you also get sick, fired, or end up hating the job? And I think Biglaw chances are virtually the same, right?


To your last question: No.



Can you speak more on that please?


There's not all that much to say about it, really. Firms will hire considerably deeper into YHS classes than they will Chicago's class.


Oh okay. Yeah, I read the initial part wrong. Understandable.

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Balthy
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Re: What COA would you be okay with for Chicago?

Postby Balthy » Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:04 am

Ti Malice wrote:
talesofyore wrote:
Ti Malice wrote:
superdingle2000 wrote:

What makes it understandable with HYS? Can't you also get sick, fired, or end up hating the job? And I think Biglaw chances are virtually the same, right?


To your last question: No.



Can you speak more on that please?


There's not all that much to say about it, really. Firms will hire considerably deeper into YHS classes than they will Chicago's class.




My understanding, for quite some time, has been that HYS are not the best schools for biglaw placement, but keep running into the idea that HYS are the only schools worth going to at sticker. Can someone help me reconcile this (common) opinion on TLS with data like this: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202589189668&interactive=true&slreturn=20130216045738? Am I missing something?

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sinfiery
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Re: What COA would you be okay with for Chicago?

Postby sinfiery » Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:38 am

Self selection is a big part of it. HYS grads have a smaller amount of their class attempting to obtain a biglaw job so their numbers are of course lower.


The counter is that if you look at NLJ numbers from the height of biglaw hiring, they were much higher back then than versus today, even at HYS. Although SY seem to have a slight change, HLS from what I can recall had a giant shift in percentages.

Ti Malice
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Re: What COA would you be okay with for Chicago?

Postby Ti Malice » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:21 pm

superdingle2000 wrote:
Ti Malice wrote:There's not all that much to say about it, really. Firms will hire considerably deeper into YHS classes than they will Chicago's class.


My understanding, for quite some time, has been that HYS are not the best schools for biglaw placement, but keep running into the idea that HYS are the only schools worth going to at sticker. Can someone help me reconcile this (common) opinion on TLS with data like this: http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNLJ.jsp?id=1202589189668&interactive=true&slreturn=20130216045738? Am I missing something?


BigLaw is not everyone's chief goal. Placement and placement ability are different things.

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Crowing
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Re: What COA would you be okay with for Chicago?

Postby Crowing » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:27 pm

sinfiery wrote:The counter is that if you look at NLJ numbers from the height of biglaw hiring, they were much higher back then than versus today, even at HYS. Although SY seem to have a slight change, HLS from what I can recall had a giant shift in percentages.


And school sponsored positions are far higher now even at Yale. Everybody always says HYS placement is due to self-selection and that those fellowships are prestigious, but the shifts ITE raise plenty of doubts in my mind. The numbers just don't support even HYS being sure bets.

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star fox
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Re: What COA would you be okay with for Chicago?

Postby star fox » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:27 pm

I wouldn't be surprised if HYS placed at least a fair chunk of graduates in prestigious boutiques that don't fit the 100+ lawyers category to qualify as BigLaw. These are probably a better outcome than BigLaw but are shut out to CCN on down grads. Obviously, I don't know this for sure, just a hunch.

005618502
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Re: What COA would you be okay with for Chicago?

Postby 005618502 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:27 pm

ManOfTheMinute wrote:The 36% who voted >200K are crazy.


Why is that? Thats sticker at Chicago. Most people pay sticker at T10 schools. I did it and I havent regretted it for one second.

Chicago is a great school as long as you dont care about having a good time there. It is worth going to at sticker. People on this board are generally overly debt adverse.

005618502
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Re: What COA would you be okay with for Chicago?

Postby 005618502 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:28 pm

john7234797 wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if HYS placed at least a fair chunk of graduates in prestigious boutiques that don't fit the 100+ lawyers category to qualify as BigLaw. These are probably a better outcome than BigLaw but are shut out to CCN on down grads. Obviously, I don't know this for sure, just a hunch.


LOL at a firm hiring a HYS grad but not considering other T10 schools. Please show me a firm that only hires grads from HYS and quit watching so much TV

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star fox
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Re: What COA would you be okay with for Chicago?

Postby star fox » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:28 pm

Crowing wrote:
sinfiery wrote:The counter is that if you look at NLJ numbers from the height of biglaw hiring, they were much higher back then than versus today, even at HYS. Although SY seem to have a slight change, HLS from what I can recall had a giant shift in percentages.


And school sponsored positions are far higher now even at Yale. Everybody always says HYS placement is due to self-selection and that those fellowships are prestigious, but the shifts ITE raise plenty of doubts in my mind. The numbers just don't support even HYS being sure bets.


But yeah, this too definitely. A Harvard grad who doesn't have good grades and gives bad interviews is probably struggling a lot more ITE compared to the golden age.

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star fox
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Re: What COA would you be okay with for Chicago?

Postby star fox » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:29 pm

AssumptionRequired wrote:
john7234797 wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if HYS placed at least a fair chunk of graduates in prestigious boutiques that don't fit the 100+ lawyers category to qualify as BigLaw. These are probably a better outcome than BigLaw but are shut out to CCN on down grads. Obviously, I don't know this for sure, just a hunch.


LOL at a firm hiring a HYS grad but not considering other T10 schools. Please show me a firm that only hires grads from HYS and quit watching so much TV


I dunno for sure but I'm talking about Boutique Law Firms since those are very small and are likely to maybe only hire 1 graduate a year. If it's between a Harvard grad who is top 10 % and a Columbia grad who is top 10 %, the Harvard grad probably wins out.

005618502
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Re: What COA would you be okay with for Chicago?

Postby 005618502 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:31 pm

john7234797 wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:
john7234797 wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if HYS placed at least a fair chunk of graduates in prestigious boutiques that don't fit the 100+ lawyers category to qualify as BigLaw. These are probably a better outcome than BigLaw but are shut out to CCN on down grads. Obviously, I don't know this for sure, just a hunch.


LOL at a firm hiring a HYS grad but not considering other T10 schools. Please show me a firm that only hires grads from HYS and quit watching so much TV


I dunno for sure but I'm talking about Boutique Law Firms since those are very small and are likely to maybe only hire 1 graduate a year. If it's between a Harvard grad who is top 10 % and a Columbia grad who is top 10 %, the Harvard grad probably wins out.


You must be an 0L, glad you are giving advice on here :roll:

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Crowing
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Re: What COA would you be okay with for Chicago?

Postby Crowing » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:31 pm

AssumptionRequired wrote:
ManOfTheMinute wrote:The 36% who voted >200K are crazy.


Why is that? Thats sticker at Chicago. Most people pay sticker at T10 schools. I did it and I havent regretted it for one second.

Chicago is a great school as long as you dont care about having a good time there. It is worth going to at sticker. People on this board are generally overly debt adverse.


I don't think putting yourself in a situation in which you're forced to not only land but maintain biglaw to pay off your debt can ever be considered anything close to a universally good decision. I agree that it's not necessarily crazy, but it may not be a good choice for the OP.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: What COA would you be okay with for Chicago?

Postby Bildungsroman » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:33 pm

john7234797 wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:
john7234797 wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if HYS placed at least a fair chunk of graduates in prestigious boutiques that don't fit the 100+ lawyers category to qualify as BigLaw. These are probably a better outcome than BigLaw but are shut out to CCN on down grads. Obviously, I don't know this for sure, just a hunch.


LOL at a firm hiring a HYS grad but not considering other T10 schools. Please show me a firm that only hires grads from HYS and quit watching so much TV


I dunno for sure but I'm talking about Boutique Law Firms since those are very small and are likely to maybe only hire 1 graduate a year. If it's between a Harvard grad who is top 10 % and a Columbia grad who is top 10 %, the Harvard grad probably wins out.

As a 0L you shouldn't be speculating on this without first putting a disclaimer abut how this is all uninformed speculation. You clearly don't have a great grasp on how legal hiring works, and I wish I could launch this post into the sun.

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star fox
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Re: What COA would you be okay with for Chicago?

Postby star fox » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:34 pm

AssumptionRequired wrote:
john7234797 wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:
john7234797 wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if HYS placed at least a fair chunk of graduates in prestigious boutiques that don't fit the 100+ lawyers category to qualify as BigLaw. These are probably a better outcome than BigLaw but are shut out to CCN on down grads. Obviously, I don't know this for sure, just a hunch.


LOL at a firm hiring a HYS grad but not considering other T10 schools. Please show me a firm that only hires grads from HYS and quit watching so much TV


I dunno for sure but I'm talking about Boutique Law Firms since those are very small and are likely to maybe only hire 1 graduate a year. If it's between a Harvard grad who is top 10 % and a Columbia grad who is top 10 %, the Harvard grad probably wins out.


You must be an 0L, glad you are giving advice on here :roll:


What are your qualifications on discussing Boutique Law Firm hiring Mr. I'm upset if someone implies HYS is better than my T10?

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star fox
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Re: What COA would you be okay with for Chicago?

Postby star fox » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:34 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
john7234797 wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:
john7234797 wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if HYS placed at least a fair chunk of graduates in prestigious boutiques that don't fit the 100+ lawyers category to qualify as BigLaw. These are probably a better outcome than BigLaw but are shut out to CCN on down grads. Obviously, I don't know this for sure, just a hunch.


LOL at a firm hiring a HYS grad but not considering other T10 schools. Please show me a firm that only hires grads from HYS and quit watching so much TV


I dunno for sure but I'm talking about Boutique Law Firms since those are very small and are likely to maybe only hire 1 graduate a year. If it's between a Harvard grad who is top 10 % and a Columbia grad who is top 10 %, the Harvard grad probably wins out.

As a 0L you shouldn't be speculating on this without first putting a disclaimer abut how this is all uninformed speculation. You clearly don't have a great grasp on how legal hiring works, and I wish I could launch this post into the sun.


I put a disclaimer there.

005618502
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Re: What COA would you be okay with for Chicago?

Postby 005618502 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:35 pm

Crowing wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:
ManOfTheMinute wrote:The 36% who voted >200K are crazy.


Why is that? Thats sticker at Chicago. Most people pay sticker at T10 schools. I did it and I havent regretted it for one second.

Chicago is a great school as long as you dont care about having a good time there. It is worth going to at sticker. People on this board are generally overly debt adverse.


I don't think putting yourself in a situation in which you're forced to not only land but maintain biglaw to pay off your debt can ever be considered anything close to a universally good decision. I agree that it's not necessarily crazy, but it may not be a good choice for the OP.


But it also could be a great decision. I would rather be median at Chicago with that debt than median at a lower T1 school. One of those you have a good shot at biglaw and one you do not. And yes, people get biglaw from median at UChi.

OP you have to think about yourself here. Either way you are taking a risk. If you take this debt at Chicago then you need to do well (or not do poorly, really) but at a lower ranked school you have to be at the top. For me, I wanted biglaw so I went to a T10 school that places well and took the debt. Working out great for me so far as I had multiple 1L SA offers as did many of my friends. I have friends at UT who are at the top of the class and didnt get a 1L paid gig.

In my opinion it is crazy to say that the #4/5 school in the country is not worth sticker.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: What COA would you be okay with for Chicago?

Postby Bildungsroman » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:36 pm

john7234797 wrote:
I put a disclaimer there.

You put "I dunno for sure" instead of "I have no idea what I'm talking about and please ignore my 0L speculation that is clearly based on a misapprehension of legal hiring founded in thinking it works like law school admissions."

Or, you know, something to that effect.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: What COA would you be okay with for Chicago?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:37 pm

AssumptionRequired wrote:In my opinion it is crazy to say that the #4/5 school in the country is not worth sticker.

When does it stop being worth sticker?

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star fox
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Re: What COA would you be okay with for Chicago?

Postby star fox » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:39 pm

Bildungsroman wrote:
john7234797 wrote:
I put a disclaimer there.

You put "I dunno for sure" instead of "I have no idea what I'm talking about and please ignore my 0L speculation that is clearly based on a misapprehension of legal hiring founded in thinking it works like law school admissions."

Or, you know, something to that effect.


It shouldn't be that hard to read my post and judge for yourself that I have no idea what I'm talking about and just like to talk out of my ass. I'll leave this thread since I clearly have jack shit to say.

005618502
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Re: What COA would you be okay with for Chicago?

Postby 005618502 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:39 pm

john7234797 wrote:
What are your qualifications on discussing Boutique Law Firm hiring Mr. I'm upset if someone implies HYS is better than my T10?


I dont go to Chicago. There are many schools better than my T10 but I am a law student who knows how firm hiring actually works and isnt just pulling facts from the air based on what I have seen on TV. I also received multiple SA offers and have actually researched firms. I wish MODs were more strict on these threads, 0Ls who seem to be making stuff up as they go should be banned to only viewing forms unless they have a question about admissions.

Please quit trying to talk about "boutiques" or at least show me one (all I want is ONE) that says or appears to only hire from those 3 schools. And no, it cant be 2 dudes who have a shingle that went to H

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sinfiery
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Re: What COA would you be okay with for Chicago?

Postby sinfiery » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:40 pm

john7234797 wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if HYS placed at least a fair chunk of graduates in prestigious boutiques that don't fit the 100+ lawyers category to qualify as BigLaw. These are probably a better outcome than BigLaw but are shut out to CCN on down grads. Obviously, I don't know this for sure, just a hunch.

But the assumption is they did this before ITE so the change in NLJ numbers still shows that HYS, in a better economy, would want to place more of their current grads into biglaw than they do.

HLS was 62% in 07 vs 48% in 2011 vs 50% now tells us some wanting biglaw probably strike out.

005618502
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Re: What COA would you be okay with for Chicago?

Postby 005618502 » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:42 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:In my opinion it is crazy to say that the #4/5 school in the country is not worth sticker.

When does it stop being worth sticker?


Thats hard. I think the cut is probably Cornell... but I am not positive about Duke and dont think Gtown is a great bet at sticker since its so big and in a hard market. I think that MVPB and up are a solid decision at sticker as long as you care more about practicing law than getting rich. Even if you dont land Biglaw you can get something that is at least decent (Fed. gov, etc) and most have a solid LRAP. Sometimes you have to take a chance on yourself. I would rather strike out having gone to the best school I got into than strike out at a lower school and wonder what if...

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: What COA would you be okay with for Chicago?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Mar 16, 2013 6:43 pm

sinfiery wrote:HLS was 62% in 07 vs 48% in 2011 vs 50% now tells us some wanting biglaw probably strike out.

They were also at just 57.5% in 2008, and given that the NLJ appears to have simply stopped trying it's hard to say exactly how much they've declined.




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