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Crowing
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Postby Crowing » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:06 pm

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Last edited by Crowing on Tue Mar 12, 2013 6:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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goden
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Re: Thinking about not going - TCR?

Postby goden » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:20 pm

I think most people will say that law school will always be there and that there is never anything wrong with turning down law school, especially when so much time and money is involved. You are absolutely not being too risk averse. Check out the loans thread if you haven't already.

It may well be that working a shit job is the best option for the time being, until you find something you like or you can go back to school with a debt level you are comfortable with.

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WhiteyCakes
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Re: Thinking about not going - TCR?

Postby WhiteyCakes » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:23 pm

It is also worth noting that the decision doesn't have to be made today. You have until late april to deposit for most schools. While that isn't a huge amount of time, it does still give you some time to work with. Whatever you do, don't make an impulsive or rash decision.

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Shmoopy
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Re: Thinking about not going - TCR?

Postby Shmoopy » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:32 pm

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Last edited by Shmoopy on Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

WhatOurBodiesAreFor
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Re: Thinking about not going - TCR?

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:39 pm

TCR? No. Not paying T14 at sticker is not TCR, I don't care what that one radlulz guy says.

Personally, I'd go. But that's because I'm psyched for it and it just feels right.

My only point in posting this was just to add the positive side to this debate, which basically is: "You're turning down Duke!?"

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Rahviveh
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Re: Thinking about not going - TCR?

Postby Rahviveh » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:43 pm

Shmoopy wrote:I'm in a pretty similar boat as you (splitter, not getting T14 money, same Vandy scholly, not fooling myself into thinking Biglaw would be that great even if I could get it), and I'm not going. If I still want to go in a couple years, I might try retaking and see if an upper 170s score (right now low 170s) could get me in anywhere better. My GPA is way too low for HYS though, so it's probably not happening.


I think this really depends on what your alternatives are.... I'm in a similar boat as both of you, and I've talked to some other splitters on TLS about this, but I just can't see myself being happy with the alternatives. Accounting is an option but I know if I go that route I'll be wanting to end up in LS anyways. At this point, LS isn't getting any cheaper, employment is probably at the new "normal" so for a splitter its really now or never. I am lucky enough to have some savings but the thought of blowing it all on these ridiculous tuition rates is making me cringe.

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: Thinking about not going - TCR?

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:48 pm

One option:

1. attend a reasonable school on full ride in a region you would be willing to live (T20-50)
2. work very hard first year
3. do 1L OCI and apply to jobs (four months in)
4. do 2L OCI and apply to jobs (nine-eleven months in)
5. If you have not had good results from 3/4, or if you hate the law or don't want to continue, drop out.
6. If you succeed with 2, and/or succeed with 3 or 4, keep going and maybe even consider transferring to a T14.

this is not the best option for everyone, but it's a pretty solid option if:
a. you are financially risk-averse
b. your undergrad BA/BS will not get you a reasonable job
c. you are not sure you will like law school
d. you are not sure you will like practicing law
Last edited by Hutz_and_Goodman on Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Ludo!
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Re: Thinking about not going - TCR?

Postby Ludo! » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:50 pm

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:TCR? No. Not paying T14 at sticker is not TCR, I don't care what that one radlulz guy says.

Personally, I'd go. But that's because I'm psyched for it and it just feels right.

My only point in posting this was just to add the positive side to this debate, which basically is: "You're turning down Duke!?"


Dead

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Rahviveh
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Re: Thinking about not going - TCR?

Postby Rahviveh » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:52 pm

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:One option:

1. attend a reasonable school on full ride in a region you would be willing to live (T20-50)
2. work very hard first year
3. do 1L OCI and apply to jobs (four months in)
4. do 2L OCI and apply to jobs (nine-eleven months in)
5. If you have not had good results from 3/4, or if you hate the law or don't want to continue, drop out.
6. If you succeed with 2, and/or succeed with 3 or 4, keep going and maybe even consider transferring to a T14.

Problem is the school in my case would be TTTT UCI and Dr. Dre says don't go there :(

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goden
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Re: Thinking about not going - TCR?

Postby goden » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:52 pm

Also, do you want to go to law school because you don't really have anything else you'd rather do, or do you want to go because for some reason the law interests you?

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: Thinking about not going - TCR?

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Fri Mar 08, 2013 3:55 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:One option:

1. attend a reasonable school on full ride in a region you would be willing to live (T20-50)
2. work very hard first year
3. do 1L OCI and apply to jobs (four months in)
4. do 2L OCI and apply to jobs (nine-eleven months in)
5. If you have not had good results from 3/4, or if you hate the law or don't want to continue, drop out.
6. If you succeed with 2, and/or succeed with 3 or 4, keep going and maybe even consider transferring to a T14.

Problem is the school in my case would be TTTT UCI and Dr. Dre says don't go there :(


Haha. imo this board is way too pessimistic on the full ride option. I mean, unemployment is 7.7%. The worst case scenario is you get a year of free legal education and then drop out. The best case scenarios include big law with no debt, discovering you want to do PI law with no debt, or discovering that you don't want to be a lawyer with no debt. If you crush law school you can transfer into the T14, pay only two years and get all the prestige. If you bomb law school then you can walk away rather than be sub-median at a T14 and the debt noose.

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twinkletoes16
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Re: Thinking about not going - TCR?

Postby twinkletoes16 » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:06 pm

tagging because i'm still hesitant even after getting some nice $ at T10s. i'm not sure if i'm worried because i'm afraid i'll hate law or worried because of all the widespread doom and gloom re: the legal economy. I'm pretty sure I'll like law, but some of the stuff from Campos' blog still gives me serious pause. I don't know what other career I'd be interested in, though, if any. :cry: I also feel like sitting out (yet another) year might be a bad idea for me.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Thinking about not going - TCR?

Postby Rahviveh » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:07 pm

twinkletoes16 wrote:tagging because i'm still hesitant even after getting some nice $ at T10s. i'm not sure if i'm worried because i'm afraid i'll hate law or worried because of all the widespread doom and gloom re: the legal economy. I'm pretty sure I'll like law, but some of the stuff from Campos' blog still gives me serious pause. I don't know what other career I'd be interested in, though, if any. :cry: I also feel like sitting out (yet another) year might be a bad idea for me.


+1 except I think I'll like biglaw based on my exposure to it and talking to people (and my personality), but I'm more worried I'll suck at it and be fired by year 2 and debtpwned lol

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Shmoopy
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Re: Thinking about not going - TCR?

Postby Shmoopy » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:11 pm

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Last edited by Shmoopy on Sat Aug 03, 2013 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Thinking about not going - TCR?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:21 pm

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:Haha. imo this board is way too pessimistic on the full ride option. I mean, unemployment is 7.7%. The worst case scenario is you get a year of free legal education and then drop out. The best case scenarios include big law with no debt, discovering you want to do PI law with no debt, or discovering that you don't want to be a lawyer with no debt. If you crush law school you can transfer into the T14, pay only two years and get all the prestige. If you bomb law school then you can walk away rather than be sub-median at a T14 and the debt noose.

This isn't a terrible strategy but the ideal school for him to do this at (WUSTL) isn't offering a full ride. A semester at WUSTL still leads to 15K or so in debt if he has to borrow for COL, plus whatever money he'll need to borrow if he has to stay unemployed for a while as he looks for a new job.

OP if you can save big on COL in STL then I'd say just go to WUSTL (maybe after application number 3 next year) and gun hard.

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twinkletoes16
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Re: Thinking about not going - TCR?

Postby twinkletoes16 » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:24 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
twinkletoes16 wrote:tagging because i'm still hesitant even after getting some nice $ at T10s. i'm not sure if i'm worried because i'm afraid i'll hate law or worried because of all the widespread doom and gloom re: the legal economy. I'm pretty sure I'll like law, but some of the stuff from Campos' blog still gives me serious pause. I don't know what other career I'd be interested in, though, if any. :cry: I also feel like sitting out (yet another) year might be a bad idea for me.


+1 except I think I'll like biglaw based on my exposure to it and talking to people (and my personality), but I'm more worried I'll suck at it and be fired by year 2 and debtpwned lol



I work 50-60 hour weeks right now, but standing on my feet and outside all day for right about minimum wage. Thinking about being indoors and getting to sit down and being in front of a computer for (possibly) substantially more money makes me jump for joy. But yes, the debpwnage is where I think the panic stems from.

NYstate
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Re: Thinking about not going - TCR?

Postby NYstate » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:30 pm

I don't think anyone should be paying sticker in a market with declining demand from qualified. Of course the demand for law school is declining because of the reality of the employment situation, the structural problems with biglaw and the huge amount of debt involved. So it does make most people wonder why people are going at sticker to T14 schools.

If you can pay for law school without debt, at least you aren't digging yourself a huge pit if things don't work out.

I have three thoughts:

1. You can defer for a year and figure out what you might do instead of paying sticker at a T14.

2. You can continue to do a great deal of research on hiring patterns. Getting into biglaw is very competitive, even from T14 schools. We know biglaw is not a secure career, so what will you do after biglaw, even assuming you get it in the first place? You need to understand that law is not necessarily a long time career. And, even if you get biglaw, the years you spend there may be the most income you ever make.

3. Figure out how you will live and pay your debt if you strike out. Along with this, have an absolute unbreakable plan to drop out if you don't get a job. But, if dropping out is your back- up plan, aren't you better off spending a great deal more time and effort on figuring out what you will do instead?

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Rahviveh
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Re: Thinking about not going - TCR?

Postby Rahviveh » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:33 pm

NYstate wrote:We know biglaw is not a secure career, so what will you do after biglaw, even assuming you get it in the first place? You need to understand that law is not necessarily a long time career.


How do you suggest we do research on this question? On TLS there is nothing more than anecdotal evidence. Its not like post-law school employment where there's plenty of stats and resources available.

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: Thinking about not going - TCR?

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:36 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
NYstate wrote:We know biglaw is not a secure career, so what will you do after biglaw, even assuming you get it in the first place? You need to understand that law is not necessarily a long time career.


How do you suggest we do research on this question? On TLS there is nothing more than anecdotal evidence. Its not like post-law school employment where there's plenty of stats and resources available.


I can't vouch for the accuracy, but someone quoted to me that the average time in big law is almost identical to the average time in the NFL for the average player, and it's ~3 years.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Thinking about not going - TCR?

Postby Rahviveh » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:38 pm

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:
NYstate wrote:We know biglaw is not a secure career, so what will you do after biglaw, even assuming you get it in the first place? You need to understand that law is not necessarily a long time career.


How do you suggest we do research on this question? On TLS there is nothing more than anecdotal evidence. Its not like post-law school employment where there's plenty of stats and resources available.


I can't vouch for the accuracy, but someone quoted to me that the average time in big law is almost identical to the average time in the NFL for the average player, and it's ~3 years.


Right, I know that, but the question is what is the probability of getting decent exit options after the 3 years are up.

NYstate
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Re: Thinking about not going - TCR?

Postby NYstate » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:44 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
NYstate wrote:We know biglaw is not a secure career, so what will you do after biglaw, even assuming you get it in the first place? You need to understand that law is not necessarily a long time career.


How do you suggest we do research on this question? On TLS there is nothing more than anecdotal evidence. Its not like post-law school employment where there's plenty of stats and resources available.


The best way I can think of is to try to find grads from the schools you are accepted to, find them at whatever firm they are currently working in and ask them what has happened to their class.

At my firm, of the three people who left recently two moved out of New York to work at firms where their families, or their spouse's families are from (Portland and Cincinnati) a third moved to Maine. She and her husband were both U Chicago grads who spent weekends over several months flying to different East Coast cities to see where they wanted to live and raise family. It took them months to find some place that worked. She had no debt because her father paid for COA but her husband had debt. I don't know anyone who went to a different firm in the city in the past few months. (edit: she was a third year; the others were 4th years)


I think that is the kind of general information you can find out. You have to find associates at firm and see what they report as happening to people from their firms. I think you need to work backwards from firm bios.

I know even that is still short term. Who knows what will be happening in law over the next 25-35 years? Very big changes in store.
Last edited by NYstate on Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Thinking about not going - TCR?

Postby Rahviveh » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:45 pm

NYstate wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:
NYstate wrote:We know biglaw is not a secure career, so what will you do after biglaw, even assuming you get it in the first place? You need to understand that law is not necessarily a long time career.


How do you suggest we do research on this question? On TLS there is nothing more than anecdotal evidence. Its not like post-law school employment where there's plenty of stats and resources available.


The best way I can think of is to try to find grads from the schools you are accepted to, find them at whatever firm they are currently working in and ask them what has happened to their class.

At my firm, of the three people who left recently two moved out of New York to work at firms where their families, or their spouse's families are from (Portland and Cincinnati) a third moved to Maine. She and her husband were both U Chicago grads who spent weekends over several months flying to different East Coast cities to see where they wanted to live and raise family. It took them months to find some place that worked. She had no debt because her father paid for COA but her husband had debt. I don't know anyone who went to a different firm in the city in the past few months.


I think that is the kind of general information you can find out. You have to find associates at firm and see what they report as happening to people from their firms. I think you need to work backwards from firm bios.

I know even that is still short term. Who knows what will be happening in law over the next 25-35 years? Very big changes in store.


Thanks!

bchirco
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Re: Thinking about not going - TCR?

Postby bchirco » Fri Mar 08, 2013 4:59 pm

Your fears are absolutely justified. Being debt-averse is logical and honestly debt should be one of the biggest contributing factors on your decision to attend ANYTHING ever.

With that being said, you are not in a bad position. Getting out with less than $50k is manageable. Really what you need to ask yourself is, as simple as it sounds, how badly do you want to be a lawyer?

Do you want it so badly that you would do 3 years with only having the POTENTIAL of practising law? Will the idea of law resonate with you long after if you decide not to go? Is this monetary sacrifice worth having the shot of being a lawyer? In other words, is the juice worth the squeeze?

If you have been browsing TLS long, you know what goes into the law game and what your potentials of it are. However, TLS is incredibly pessimistic (justifiably so) and your passion for law should be all the optimistic output you need to balance this.

If you want to be a lawyer, there is no real other way but to roll the dice and work hard.

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beachbum
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Re: Thinking about not going - TCR?

Postby beachbum » Fri Mar 08, 2013 5:35 pm

Tough call. A few thoughts immediately jump to mind:

1) If you have strong STL/Midwestern ties, then Chicago is (theoretically) available. Of course, Chicago is a tough market - you're going to have a much easier go of things from a T14 then you would from, say, WUSTL.

2) Don't assume you can walk back into St. Louis from Vandy. Employers here are very selective, and there are few spots available. (The larger biglaw shops tend to swing more towards T14 + top-of-the-class local students, while the more regional firms show a strong preference for local students. So Vandy kinda puts you in that awkward middle ground.)

Honestly, all of your options seem pretty risky, and I think you're right to question them. Are you sure you want to be a lawyer? Do you know what kind of lawyer, and where? You sound a little on-the-fence. And that's not a good place to be before making such a big decision.

But if you do want to be a lawyer, and you want biglaw, then I'd go all-in on the T14. If you have T14 options (and are indifferent between them), I'd veer towards Michigan or Northwestern (or Chicago, if it's on the table).

If you're ok with a non-biglaw career path, then go for the local schools at low or no cost. If you can't get them at low or no cost, then don't go this route.

Otherwise, don't go. Your mid-tier options just don't offer the risk/reward balance that would justify taking them over either a) maximizing your potential reward, or b) minimizing your risk. But, again, make sure this is really what you want to do. If you're thinking about going into the workforce for a year or two, consider being a paralegal. And if you want to talk about your decision (I was in a very similar situation), feel free to PM me.

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02889
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Re: Thinking about not going - TCR?

Postby 02889 » Fri Mar 08, 2013 6:00 pm

I'm feeling similarly, which really frustrates me. I've worked in law in varying capacities, I want to be a lawyer, and I know that I would like it. However, there are tens of thousands of struggling attorneys desperate for work and no matter what field you go into (private or public), the market is absurdly over-saturated. I'm not sure of my chances at getting long-term employment even from a top school and given my lack of substantial scholarships, it's a scary future.

I mostly do feel like the field I want to go in to has been ruined by the greed of TTT administrators and the uninformed masses who attend those schools.




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