Washington & Lee at sticker or Indiana-Mauer with a $90,000?

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Washington & Lee at sticker or Indiana-Mauer with a $90,000 scholarship?

Washington & Lee
4
17%
Indiana-Mauer
20
83%
 
Total votes: 24

timbs4339
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Re: Washington & Lee at sticker or Indiana-Mauer with a $90,000?

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:44 pm

I concur with most of the posters ITT. Retake.

Luckily your GPA does not bar you from T14. Unfortunately none of your short-term mid-term goals are realistic from either school, to the extent they are realistic at all. If you'd be happy with 40-60K practicing small time law in trial court or before admin agencies or being a DA/PD then it's a different story.

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SteelPenguin
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Re: Washington & Lee at sticker or Indiana-Mauer with a $90,000?

Postby SteelPenguin » Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:50 pm

table3 wrote:Washington & Lee at sticker or Indiana-Mauer with a $90,000 scholarship? (I have not started negotiating with W&L. For the sake of this post, let's assume they won't budge.)

LST Profiles:
-W&L: http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=wl
-IUB: http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=indiana

Short-term goals:
-Clerkship for a federal judge for either one or two years.
-Gainful employment in the private sector (I'll narrowly define gainful as at least $100,000/yr.)

Mid-term career goal:
-Practice appellate law.

Long-term goal:
-Don the robe and warm a seat on the bench.

A bit about me:
-163/3.59 (I understand the urge to advise a retake. Honestly, I fully understand the implications. I'm posting here in search of additional advice.)
-Happy to settle in the midwest, the mid-Atlantic, and anywhere in between and to the south.
-Professional connections in DC and, to a slightly lesser extent, Texas (from working on Capitol Hill since July 2009).
-No undergrad debt.

Thanks in advance for your input.


As much as I hated to hear about retaking, I'd recommend retaking in June. If you really want to, you can put a seat deposit down for your top choice and retake anyway. This way, if you don't improve, you can go to the school you had planned on attending. If you do improve, you can move onto next cycle's personal statements and essays knowing your prospects have improved. You'll be able to apply very early in the cycle with a well-prepared application.

grapefruits
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Re: Washington & Lee at sticker or Indiana-Mauer with a $90,000?

Postby grapefruits » Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:58 pm

romothesavior wrote:
grapefruits wrote:
ImNoScar wrote:
grapefruits wrote:Definitely W&L at sticker, great life choice. With the glut of legal jobs, there's no way that could backfire!

Your trolling is god awful.


Damn, I hope some day I can get my trolling up to your standards. Maybe I'll make a post asking whether I should take a quarter mill of taxpayer/Chinese investor's money, which I will never repay, to go to some garbage law school, or whether it would be smarter to take out $160,000 worth of the same, in order to have just as miserable prospects.

Stop.


I get that the way in which I conveyed the information "W&L at sticker is a very bad decision" was not the nicest, "everyone's beautiful and a winner and a special snowflake" way, but in actuality, there is really no difference between what I said, and the "nice" way of saying it; save for the possibility, that by making a joke out of it, the OP is more likely to realize that his potential decision is so terrible as to warrant derision from his peers. It's not like I said "Anyone who goes to W&L is a [insert rude name here]." My intent was to offer advice. My guess was that he would get plenty of "don't consider W&L at sticker," and that he would ignore it. In most instances it seems that people who make these posts are looking for confirmation that what they are doing is a good idea, and not an outright rejection of all of the bad ideas they put forth.

I will stop, although it really isn't/wasn't my intention to troll.

table3
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Re: Washington & Lee at sticker or Indiana-Mauer with a $90,000?

Postby table3 » Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:59 pm

grapefruits wrote:
I get that the way in which I conveyed the information "W&L at sticker is a very bad decision" was not the nicest, "everyone's beautiful and a winner and a special snowflake" way, but in actuality, there is really no difference between what I said, and the "nice" way of saying it; save for the possibility, that by making a joke out of it, the OP is more likely to realize that his potential decision is so terrible as to warrant derision from his peers. It's not like I said "Anyone who goes to W&L is a [insert rude name here]." My intent was to offer advice. My guess was that he would get plenty of "don't consider W&L at sticker," and that he would ignore it. In most instances it seems that people who make these posts are looking for confirmation that what they are doing is a good idea, and not an outright rejection of all of the bad ideas they put forth.

I will stop, although it really isn't/wasn't my intention to troll.


The snowflake bit made me laugh.

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star fox
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Re: Washington & Lee at sticker or Indiana-Mauer with a $90,000?

Postby star fox » Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:09 pm

If you have ties to Indiana then Indianapolis "big" law might be obtainable if you're lucky enough to end up top quarter of your class..but yeah you should probably just re-take. Definitely don't go to a non-T14 at sticker (I consider even that dubious). Your career goals are pretty damn lofty.

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romothesavior
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Re: Washington & Lee at sticker or Indiana-Mauer with a $90,000?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:17 pm

john7234797 wrote:If you have ties to Indiana then Indianapolis "big" law might be obtainable if you're lucky enough to end up top quarter of your class..but yeah you should probably just re-take. Definitely don't go to a non-T14 at sticker (I consider even that dubious). Your career goals are pretty damn lofty.

There are probably no more than 30-40 big and mid law SAs in the entire city of Indianapolis, and they are split between Indiana, Notre Dame, Illinois, WUSTL, IU-Indy, maybe a small handful from Valpo, and a smattering of T14. Top 1/4 might be able to land you a six fig job in Indy, but you would have to be a hell of a candidate. You'd likely need far better grades than that. I think IUB places around 10-15% total into NLJ 250 jobs, some of which are probably in Chicago and NYC.

I'm not trying to be a contrarian, I just want to give OP an idea of what he's looking at.

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rickgrimes69
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Re: Washington & Lee at sticker or Indiana-Mauer with a $90,000?

Postby rickgrimes69 » Thu Mar 07, 2013 5:40 pm

romothesavior wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Not only are neither of those schools worth the cost, but also you need to seriously rethink your laughably ambitious career goals.

+1

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star fox
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Re: Washington & Lee at sticker or Indiana-Mauer with a $90,000?

Postby star fox » Thu Mar 07, 2013 6:06 pm

romothesavior wrote:
john7234797 wrote:If you have ties to Indiana then Indianapolis "big" law might be obtainable if you're lucky enough to end up top quarter of your class..but yeah you should probably just re-take. Definitely don't go to a non-T14 at sticker (I consider even that dubious). Your career goals are pretty damn lofty.

There are probably no more than 30-40 big and mid law SAs in the entire city of Indianapolis, and they are split between Indiana, Notre Dame, Illinois, WUSTL, IU-Indy, maybe a small handful from Valpo, and a smattering of T14. Top 1/4 might be able to land you a six fig job in Indy, but you would have to be a hell of a candidate. You'd likely need far better grades than that. I think IUB places around 10-15% total into NLJ 250 jobs, some of which are probably in Chicago and NYC.

I'm not trying to be a contrarian, I just want to give OP an idea of what he's looking at.


Thanks for that info. 30-40 spots in the whole city? Damn, that's depressing. I suggested Indy because when I was looking at the profiles of the lawyers of the big firms there they are overwhelmingly Indiana grads (many being double alum), so much so that the ones that aren't stick out (mostly T14 grads or shitboomers who went somewhere like IU-Indy or Valpo 30 years ago). I'd imagine it's probably a bit harder for a ND, UIUC, WUSTL grad to break in. Top quarter was probably being too generous though.

table3
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 12:21 pm

Re: Washington & Lee at sticker or Indiana-Mauer with a $90,000?

Postby table3 » Thu Mar 07, 2013 8:50 pm

john7234797 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
john7234797 wrote:If you have ties to Indiana then Indianapolis "big" law might be obtainable if you're lucky enough to end up top quarter of your class..but yeah you should probably just re-take. Definitely don't go to a non-T14 at sticker (I consider even that dubious). Your career goals are pretty damn lofty.

There are probably no more than 30-40 big and mid law SAs in the entire city of Indianapolis, and they are split between Indiana, Notre Dame, Illinois, WUSTL, IU-Indy, maybe a small handful from Valpo, and a smattering of T14. Top 1/4 might be able to land you a six fig job in Indy, but you would have to be a hell of a candidate. You'd likely need far better grades than that. I think IUB places around 10-15% total into NLJ 250 jobs, some of which are probably in Chicago and NYC.

I'm not trying to be a contrarian, I just want to give OP an idea of what he's looking at.


Thanks for that info. 30-40 spots in the whole city? Damn, that's depressing. I suggested Indy because when I was looking at the profiles of the lawyers of the big firms there they are overwhelmingly Indiana grads (many being double alum), so much so that the ones that aren't stick out (mostly T14 grads or shitboomers who went somewhere like IU-Indy or Valpo 30 years ago). I'd imagine it's probably a bit harder for a ND, UIUC, WUSTL grad to break in. Top quarter was probably being too generous though.


Thanks to you both. This is helpful.

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somewhatwayward
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Re: Washington & Lee at sticker or Indiana-Mauer with a $90,000?

Postby somewhatwayward » Thu Mar 07, 2013 11:48 pm

OP, I don't think you are getting what we are saying: in your current situation, you have to choose between going to the schools on the table now or your goals of federal clerkship/appellate practice/100K starting salary. They are 99.9% mutually exclusive. If you're talking about just the federal clerkship, they're ~95% mutually exclusive.

Let's take the easiest of your goals, earning 100K (by no means easy but merely the easiest). Spoiler alert before all the explanation: you have a 9% chance of making 100K+ if you go to IUB while you have a 70% chance of making 50K or less; for W&L it's a 15% chance at 90K+ and a 55% chance at 50K or less.

The 37.4% of IUB's class that reported a salary last year had a median salary of 70K. The high salaries always get reported because schools are allowed to track down salary data, and it is easy to track down the people in big law online and find their salaries and not easy to do so for the people who are unemployed or working at Home Depot. Also, schools don't have an incentive to find the low salaries, and people with high salaries are more likely to report in the first place. Thus, that 37.4% is likely the highest 37.4% of the salaries in the class, so the 70K actually translates to the 81st percentile. You've got about a 19% chance of making 70K+. Lucky for us the 75th percentile for the 37.4% who reported a salary is exactly 100K, so we can figure out that 100K is about the 91st percentile for the class. You've got less than a 10% chance of making 100K coming out of IUB. Meanwhile 50K is the 25th percentile of the reported salaries so we can also figure that 50K is 72nd percentile salary coming out of IUB - that is, you have more than a 70% chance of making 50K or less. Yikes. You can repeat the same calculation for W&L.

You have to make a decision between going to one of these schools and continuing to pursue your dream career. Understand that if you choose one of these schools you are taking yourself off that path. Yes, if you go to IUB, by all means study like crazy and hope to be in the top 3%, but that still only gets you to the federal clerkship, probably in non-1/2/7/9/DC district court which is not going to get you into appellate practice.

If you decide that you are willing to I'd take IUB in this case. W&L is not worth anything near sticker.

table3
Posts: 59
Joined: Sun May 13, 2012 12:21 pm

Re: Washington & Lee at sticker or Indiana-Mauer with a $90,000?

Postby table3 » Fri Mar 08, 2013 12:21 am

somewhatwayward wrote:OP, I don't think you are getting what we are saying: in your current situation, you have to choose between going to the schools on the table now or your goals of federal clerkship/appellate practice/100K starting salary. They are 99.9% mutually exclusive. If you're talking about just the federal clerkship, they're ~95% mutually exclusive.

Let's take the easiest of your goals, earning 100K (by no means easy but merely the easiest). Spoiler alert before all the explanation: you have a 9% chance of making 100K+ if you go to IUB while you have a 70% chance of making 50K or less; for W&L it's a 15% chance at 90K+ and a 55% chance at 50K or less.

The 37.4% of IUB's class that reported a salary last year had a median salary of 70K. The high salaries always get reported because schools are allowed to track down salary data, and it is easy to track down the people in big law online and find their salaries and not easy to do so for the people who are unemployed or working at Home Depot. Also, schools don't have an incentive to find the low salaries, and people with high salaries are more likely to report in the first place. Thus, that 37.4% is likely the highest 37.4% of the salaries in the class, so the 70K actually translates to the 81st percentile. You've got about a 19% chance of making 70K+. Lucky for us the 75th percentile for the 37.4% who reported a salary is exactly 100K, so we can figure out that 100K is about the 91st percentile for the class. You've got less than a 10% chance of making 100K coming out of IUB. Meanwhile 50K is the 25th percentile of the reported salaries so we can also figure that 50K is 72nd percentile salary coming out of IUB - that is, you have more than a 70% chance of making 50K or less. Yikes. You can repeat the same calculation for W&L.

You have to make a decision between going to one of these schools and continuing to pursue your dream career. Understand that if you choose one of these schools you are taking yourself off that path. Yes, if you go to IUB, by all means study like crazy and hope to be in the top 3%, but that still only gets you to the federal clerkship, probably in non-1/2/7/9/DC district court which is not going to get you into appellate practice.

If you decide that you are willing to I'd take IUB in this case. W&L is not worth anything near sticker.


While I'm not sure what I wrote that indicated that I'm not comprehending the feedback I've received in this thread, I really appreciate this post. Super helpful. Thank you.




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