Here we go...!

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
superhopefulwoo
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:40 pm

Here we go...!

Postby superhopefulwoo » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:12 am

Of these offers, are any worthy enough for serious consideration? As a note, please assess with the assumption that I have enough ties to regions in the schools with scholarships except California. Also, I am capable of covering about 5k of my cost of living each year so cost of living will create an excess of 45k debt in total.

Format: X amount scholarship out of X amount tuition = Debt from tuition

American - (20k out of 150k) = 130k debt
Georgetown - (Preferred waitlist)
Fordham - (30k out of 150k) = 115k debt
Loyola LA - (60k/135k) = 175k debt
William & Mary - (57k/120k) = 63k debt
Seattle U - (60k/120k) = 60k debt
Villanova - Full Ride = no tuition debt
USD - (120k/129k) = 9k debt
Univ of Hawaii - (30k/90k) = 60k debt
UC Irvine - (135k/165k) = 30k debt
Temple - (60k/90k) = 30k debt
SCU - (61k/120k) = 59k debt
Penn State - (105k/120k) = 15k debt
Univ of Washington - sticker (~120k tuition +45k col)

I'm going to assume myself a lock out from T-14 other than GULC. I have read through enough threads to understand the risks of "below T-14". I also understand the option of 'retake' is the norm here - I am considering retaking in June for scholarship reasons and/or reapplying next cycle. As a note, I missed 1 LSAT because of an illness, 157 1st, 164 2nd. I'm not sure if that makes any difference. GPA ~3.65.

Edit: total debt amount
Last edited by superhopefulwoo on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:13 am, edited 5 times in total.

User avatar
guano
Posts: 2268
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:49 am

Re: Here we go...!

Postby guano » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:24 am

I don't understand your numbers. I figure the first is scholarship, but what's the second? total tuition or total cost of attendance? (includes living expenses). Either way, the numbers don't make sense.

superhopefulwoo
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:40 pm

Re: Here we go...!

Postby superhopefulwoo » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:25 am

guano wrote:I don't understand your numbers. I figure the first is scholarship, but what's the second? total tuition or total cost of attendance? (includes living expenses). Either way, the numbers don't make sense.


Scholarship amount vs. total tuition (not including cost of living) amount.

User avatar
guano
Posts: 2268
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:49 am

Re: Here we go...!

Postby guano » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:28 am

superhopefulwoo wrote:
guano wrote:I don't understand your numbers. I figure the first is scholarship, but what's the second? total tuition or total cost of attendance? (includes living expenses). Either way, the numbers don't make sense.


Scholarship amount vs. total tuition (not including cost of living) amount.

I'm still not sure your numbers are right, but, you should absolutely include cost of living, unless you prefer to reside in a cardboard box.

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Here we go...!

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:29 am

superhopefulwoo wrote:Of these offers, are any worthy enough for serious consideration? As a note, please assess with the assumption that I have enough ties to regions in the schools with scholarships except California. Also, I am capable of covering about 5k of my cost of living each year.

Format: X amount scholarship out of X amount tuition = Debt from tuition

American - (20k out of 210k) = 190k debt
Georgetown - (Preferred waitlist)
Fordham - (30k out of 175k) = 145k debt
Loyola LA - (60k/135k) = 175k debt
William & Mary - (57k/120k) = 63k debt
Seattle U - (60k/120k) = 60k debt
Villanova - Full Ride = no tuition debt
USD - (120k/129k) = 9k debt
Univ of Hawaii - (30k/90k) = 60k debt
UC Irvine - (135k/165k) = 30k debt
Temple - (60k/90k) = 30k debt
SCU - (61k/120k) = 59k debt
Penn State - (105k/120k) = 15k debt

I'm going to assume myself a lock out from T-14 other than GULC. I have read through enough threads to understand the risks of "below T-14". I also understand the option of 'retake' is the norm here - I am considering retaking in June for scholarship reasons and/or reapplying next cycle. As a note, I missed 1 LSAT because of an illness, 157 1st, 164 2nd. I'm not sure if that makes any difference. GPA ~3.65.


What do you want to do with your degree? What markets would you prefer to work in (list in order)?
Last edited by timbs4339 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
guano
Posts: 2268
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:49 am

Re: Here we go...!

Postby guano » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:30 am

timbs4339 wrote:What do you want to do with your degree?

and where do you want to end up?

eljefe_dy
Posts: 20
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2012 4:14 pm

Re: Here we go...!

Postby eljefe_dy » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:30 am

Check your numbers again.

guano wrote:
superhopefulwoo wrote:
guano wrote:I don't understand your numbers. I figure the first is scholarship, but what's the second? total tuition or total cost of attendance? (includes living expenses). Either way, the numbers don't make sense.


Scholarship amount vs. total tuition (not including cost of living) amount.

I'm still not sure your numbers are right, but, you should absolutely include cost of living, unless you prefer to reside in a cardboard box.

cooldude87
Posts: 177
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:51 pm

Re: Here we go...!

Postby cooldude87 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:31 am

Villanova

superhopefulwoo
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:40 pm

Re: Here we go...!

Postby superhopefulwoo » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:32 am

guano wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:What do you want to do with your degree?

and where do you want to end up?



I've moved all my life so I have no locational preference. If I like the area enough (which I do for each of these locations) then I have no problems continuing my career in that location. I have not decided an exact route - I am interested in both BigLaw and Public Interest although I'm leaning more toward Public Interest right now, and small debts are ideal. Overall I am flexible which actually makes this more confusing. Just add 45k to the total I listed and you will have the estimated debt. Sorry - I couldn't figure out how to set up those numbers.

User avatar
guano
Posts: 2268
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:49 am

Re: Here we go...!

Postby guano » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:34 am

cooldude87 wrote:Villanova

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Here we go...!

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:44 am

superhopefulwoo wrote:
guano wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:What do you want to do with your degree?

and where do you want to end up?



I've moved all my life so I have no locational preference. If I like the area enough (which I do for each of these locations) then I have no problems continuing my career in that location. I have not decided an exact route - I am interested in both BigLaw and Public Interest although I'm leaning more toward Public Interest right now, and small debts are ideal. Overall I am flexible which actually makes this more confusing. Just add 45k to the total I listed and you will have the estimated debt. Sorry - I couldn't figure out how to set up those numbers.


Biglaw is essentially out at the schools you listed except maybe Fordham. That's why a year off and a retake would be enormously beneficial. Six points and you'd be in at multiple T14s. Biglaw opens up a ton of options 2-3 years after graduation you might not otherwise have, and public interest is very hard to get now.

American, Fordham, and Loyola are out even before the COL. No fucking way. The remaining schools are mostly regional and you're looking at salaries in the 40-60K range if you are within the half that gets a lawyer job. Of course there is always a small chance you'll get an excellent outcome, but it is dwarfed by the chances you'll end up unemployed or working for $15/hr. So I'd recommend no more than 80K in debt.

Villanova, Penn State, USD, UCI would all be fine at those prices assuming 15K per year in COL+tuition increases. My top choice would be Nova. Once you add COL, W+M, Seattle, and SCU are not good buys. Hawaii's market is too insular and the school doesn't travel well. Temple is on the bubble, maybe you can get them to match Nova if you negotiate. Don't be afraid to place multiple deposits and negotiate down to the wire.

superhopefulwoo
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:40 pm

Re: Here we go...!

Postby superhopefulwoo » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:52 am

timbs4339 wrote:
superhopefulwoo wrote:
guano wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:What do you want to do with your degree?

and where do you want to end up?



I've moved all my life so I have no locational preference. If I like the area enough (which I do for each of these locations) then I have no problems continuing my career in that location. I have not decided an exact route - I am interested in both BigLaw and Public Interest although I'm leaning more toward Public Interest right now, and small debts are ideal. Overall I am flexible which actually makes this more confusing. Just add 45k to the total I listed and you will have the estimated debt. Sorry - I couldn't figure out how to set up those numbers.


Biglaw is essentially out at the schools you listed except maybe Fordham. That's why a year off and a retake would be enormously beneficial. Six points and you'd be in at multiple T14s. Biglaw opens up a ton of options 2-3 years after graduation you might not otherwise have, and public interest is very hard to get now.

American, Fordham, and Loyola are out even before the COL. No fucking way. The remaining schools are mostly regional and you're looking at salaries in the 40-60K range if you are within the half that gets a lawyer job. Of course there is always a small chance you'll get an excellent outcome, but it is dwarfed by the chances you'll end up unemployed or working for $15/hr. So I'd recommend no more than 80K in debt.

Villanova, Penn State, USD, UCI would all be fine at those prices assuming 15K per year in COL+tuition increases. My top choice would be Nova. Once you add COL, W+M, Seattle, and SCU are not good buys. Hawaii's market is too insular and the school doesn't travel well. Temple is on the bubble, maybe you can get them to match Nova if you negotiate. Don't be afraid to place multiple deposits and negotiate down to the wire.



Thank you - that was a really helpful assessment. I am currently in Hawaii so I am not worried about their insular market - I am very in, but the school is incredibly stingy so I can't go below in-state. I totally forgot to add one more school - UW at sticker for now (that's probably 120k in tuition + 45k in col). So if I were able to talk up Penn State and Temple to full, which would be the winner of the three? Is Villanova 'safe' in light of the ranking scandal?

Ti Malice
Posts: 1955
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2012 2:55 am

Re: Here we go...!

Postby Ti Malice » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:54 am

superhopefulwoo wrote:I also understand the option of 'retake' is the norm here - I am considering retaking in June for scholarship reasons and/or reapplying next cycle.


Stop considering it and start studying. It's March already. Do everything you can to get to 170+ by June. If you're not consistently scoring above 170 by the June test, postpone and retake in October.

Don't go with any of these. You're only a few points away from having enormously better options.

Aroldis105
Posts: 210
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:38 am

Re: Here we go...!

Postby Aroldis105 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:58 am

Hawaii would be soooo chill.
*Not actual life advice, just an outsiders observation.

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Here we go...!

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:03 am

superhopefulwoo wrote:
Thank you - that was a really helpful assessment. I am currently in Hawaii so I am not worried about their insular market - I am very in, but the school is incredibly stingy so I can't go below in-state. I totally forgot to add one more school - UW at sticker for now (that's probably 120k in tuition + 45k in col). So if I were able to talk up Penn State and Temple to full, which would be the winner of the three? Is Villanova 'safe' in light of the ranking scandal?


I wouldn't worry about the ranking scandal. Employers who will hire from these schools aren't interested in USNWR ranking when picking between two generally equal regional schools. I'd be surprised if many employers even knew about the scandal.

LST has Penn State with the highest employment score (58% to 54% for Temple and 52% for Nova), but the lowest placement into HSLE (high status legal employment- federal clerkships, public interest, and biglaw). Temple has the highest HSLE so if you can get them to full scholly I'd go there, since you've got a better shot at a good outcome. Nova has almost 40% underemployment.

User avatar
20130312
Posts: 3842
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:53 pm

Re: Here we go...!

Postby 20130312 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:04 am

Worthless without knowing stips.

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Here we go...!

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:05 am

InGoodFaith wrote:Worthless without knowing stips.


Good catch.

User avatar
Dr. Dre
Posts: 2347
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 7:10 pm

Re: Here we go...!

Postby Dr. Dre » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:09 am

retake

User avatar
guano
Posts: 2268
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2013 9:49 am

Re: Here we go...!

Postby guano » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:09 am

InGoodFaith wrote:Worthless choiceswithout knowing stips.

superhopefulwoo
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:40 pm

Re: Here we go...!

Postby superhopefulwoo » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:11 am

InGoodFaith wrote:Worthless without knowing stips.



Stips - I believe they are all top half of the class except for UCI which is 'good standing' and 2.0. Loyola was a 3.2 stip and Santa Clara has a ridiculous stip although I'm in consideration for a full scholly.

User avatar
patrickd139
Posts: 2883
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:53 pm

Re: Here we go...!

Postby patrickd139 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:12 am

Fuck me. Fordham costs $175k for tuition?!

JFC.

ETA: I've got no substantive comment, other than don't go to Fordham. Even with the scholarship.
Last edited by patrickd139 on Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
jchiles
Posts: 518
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:49 pm

Re: Here we go...!

Postby jchiles » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:13 am

guano wrote:
cooldude87 wrote:Villanova


guano wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:Worthless choiceswithout knowing stips.


come on at least be consistent haha

User avatar
20130312
Posts: 3842
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:53 pm

Re: Here we go...!

Postby 20130312 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:13 am

guano wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:Worthless choiceswithout knowing stips.

Meh, I've seen much worse on this site so I didn't really bat an eye.

Top half stip means 50% chance of losing your scholarship. That's a huge gamble. The unequivocal right answer (which OP obviously knows since it was acknowledged in the OP) is to retake.

superhopefulwoo
Posts: 181
Joined: Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:40 pm

Re: Here we go...!

Postby superhopefulwoo » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:16 am

InGoodFaith wrote:
guano wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:Worthless choiceswithout knowing stips.

Meh, I've seen much worse on this site so I didn't really bat an eye.

Top half stip means 50% chance of losing your scholarship. That's a huge gamble. The unequivocal right answer (which OP obviously knows since it was acknowledged in the OP) is to retake.



Oops - Villanova is 2.0 also. W&M and Penn State seem to have good stats with most scholarship recipients being able to renew the money. And sorry - I messed up Fordham's tuition - it was ~150k!

User avatar
patrickd139
Posts: 2883
Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2009 8:53 pm

Re: Here we go...!

Postby patrickd139 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 1:17 am

superhopefulwoo wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:
guano wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:Worthless choiceswithout knowing stips.

Meh, I've seen much worse on this site so I didn't really bat an eye.

Top half stip means 50% chance of losing your scholarship. That's a huge gamble. The unequivocal right answer (which OP obviously knows since it was acknowledged in the OP) is to retake.



Oops - Villanova is 2.0 also. W&M and Penn State seem to have good stats with most scholarship recipients being able to renew the money. And sorry - I messed up Fordham's tuition - it was ~150k!

Still wouldn't go to Fordham, FWIW.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], Specter1389, splitterfromhell, TatteredDignity, Yahoo [Bot] and 5 guests