St. Marys vs South Texas

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romothesavior
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby romothesavior » Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:21 pm

Kenneth417 wrote:I already did retake. I received a 151 my first attempt and then after another 4 months of excruciating study I received a 156. That is why I do not plan take the LSAT again. St. Marys has an employment score close to 70% which is higher than some of the top 30 schools in the nation including Boston Univerisity and Washington and Lee. What makes these top schools more attractive when they hold employment scores of 50% and 60% respectively? I am trying to broaden my knowledge pertaining to this subject matter so that is why I have have numerous questions regarding choosing a law school. Thanks again for all your help ahead of time.

Two things: How much debt are you looking at, and what do you want to do?

Both schools have atrocious big firm scores, place few people (if anyone) into prestigious government and PI jobs, and have virtually no clerkship possibilities. If you can go for cheap and are cool with doing less-than-prestigious work (what most refer to as "shitlaw"), then go for it. But the idea of taking out debt for either of those schools just seems insane to me.

20141023
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby 20141023 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:31 pm

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Last edited by 20141023 on Mon Feb 16, 2015 1:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kenneth417
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby Kenneth417 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:34 pm

I want to enter the field of family law/estate planning. I am looking at debt in the area of 50-60k because of the fact that I can cover my entire first year of expenses without any loans. I read a lot of discussions along with your post and see the term "shitlaw" used quite often. What is considered to be "shitlaw"?

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romothesavior
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby romothesavior » Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:42 pm

Kenneth417 wrote:I want to enter the field of family law/estate planning. I am looking at debt in the area of 50-60k because of the fact that I can cover my entire first year of expenses without any loans. I read a lot of discussions along with your post and see the term "shitlaw" used quite often. What is considered to be "shitlaw"?

I try not to use the term too often, but sometimes you just have to. It reflects the reality that there are a lot of legal jobs that pay poorly, are very low on the totem pole, overwork their employees relative to their pay scale, have little upward mobility, and lack much in the way of complexity or intellectual rigor. A good example is insurance defense work, which is (often but not always) low-paying, very basic work, and often involves high turnover and ridiculous hours given their 30-50k salaries.

Kenneth417
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby Kenneth417 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:57 pm

Thanks for explaining that. If I had better opportunities at my disposal I would definitely take advantage of them but since I don't most likely I am going to pursue my legal education at one of these schools. My love for discovering new aspects of the law with the intent of becoming an individual who can use this knowledge to make a living is why attending one of these schools is a strong possibility.

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patrickd139
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby patrickd139 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:00 pm

Kenneth417 wrote:Thanks for explaining that. If I had better opportunities at my disposal I would definitely take advantage of them but since I don't most likely I am going to pursue my legal education at one of these schools. My love for discovering new aspects of the law with the intent of becoming an individual who can use this knowledge to make a living is why attending one of these schools is a strong possibility.

It's just too bad none of those things will get you a job.

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North
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby North » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:05 pm

Kenneth417 wrote:My love for discovering new aspects of the law with the intent of becoming an individual who can use this knowledge to make a living

Seriously, man, these aren't the schools that will make it possible for you to do any of that. Do you think everybody here is just lying to you?

Kenneth417
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby Kenneth417 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:06 pm

patrickd139 wrote:
Kenneth417 wrote:Thanks for explaining that. If I had better opportunities at my disposal I would definitely take advantage of them but since I don't most likely I am going to pursue my legal education at one of these schools. My love for discovering new aspects of the law with the intent of becoming an individual who can use this knowledge to make a living is why attending one of these schools is a strong possibility.

It's just too bad none of those things will get you a job.


So what you're saying is that none of the graduates from either of these schools will not get a job. I can strongly say that the majority of individuals here on TLS would disagree.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby bizzybone1313 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:06 pm

OP, you are most likely ruining your life by attending one of these two schools. I know a girl from my undergrad who attended South Texas with a 3.9 GPA. If you could muster a low 160's score, you could at least attend U of H. I, myself, am only going to apply to UT out of the schools in the state of Texas. Don't be on the receiving end of the law school scam. If people from UCLA, UT and USC are having a hard time getting jobs, what do you think that means for South Texas and St. Mary's? We aren't trying to be douche bags by giving you advice. We are trying to help you.

Kenneth417
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby Kenneth417 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:11 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:OP, you are most likely ruining your life by attending one of these two schools. I know a girl from my undergrad who attended South Texas with a 3.9 GPA. If you could muster a low 160's score, you could at least attend U of H. I, myself, am only going to apply to UT out of the schools in the state of Texas. Don't be on the receiving end of the law school scam. If people from UCLA, UT and USC are having a hard time getting jobs, what do you think that means for South Texas and St. Mary's? We aren't trying to be douche bags by giving you advice. We are trying to help you.


I know that you are all trying to help me and I appreciate everything that all of you have had to say. I feel lucky to have this many knowledgable people informing me about the difficulties that come along with attending one of these schools. I just have to decide what the best route is to take when trying to reach my goal of becoming an attorney.

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North
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby North » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:23 pm

Kenneth417 wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:OP, you are most likely ruining your life by attending one of these two schools. I know a girl from my undergrad who attended South Texas with a 3.9 GPA. If you could muster a low 160's score, you could at least attend U of H. I, myself, am only going to apply to UT out of the schools in the state of Texas. Don't be on the receiving end of the law school scam. If people from UCLA, UT and USC are having a hard time getting jobs, what do you think that means for South Texas and St. Mary's? We aren't trying to be douche bags by giving you advice. We are trying to help you.


I know that you are all trying to help me and I appreciate everything that all of you have had to say. I feel lucky to have this many knowledgable people informing me about the difficulties that come along with attending one of these schools. I just have to decide what the best route is to take when trying to reach my goal of becoming an attorney.

The best route is for you to head over to the LSAT Prep forum on here and start studying for the October LSAT. Seriously. Start gunning for UT. If you put in the work and with that GPA, it's likely to be the best decision you'll ever make.

20141023
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby 20141023 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:33 pm

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bizzybone1313
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby bizzybone1313 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:36 pm

Wormfather wrote:See it is possible to get big law at St. Mary's, that ONE guy/gal did.


No wonder you only scored a 170 on the LSAT. :lol:

BigZuck
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby BigZuck » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:58 pm

You have at least two people in this thread (wormfather and me) and most likely more who originally had lowish LSAT scores when we first took the test, then busted ass and took it TWO more times and ended up with acceptances to t14 schools with solid scholarships (or in the case of worm, amazing scholarships). If we had stuck with our original scores we would have been selling ourselves short and ended up at schools with dubious employment prospects. Retake, please. It's the right thing to do.

Last year I applied to South Texas and UH. I got a $15000 scholarship to South Texas and nothing at UH. I retook and reapplied and now I can go to UT for CHEAPER than what it would have cost me to go to South Texas. Think about that for a minute. Nothing about my candidacy has changed other than an LSAT score jump. Same essays, same gpa, same level of intelligence, working the same crappy job. The LSAT is the only difference. And it made all the difference.

Retake.

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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby BigZuck » Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:03 pm

I should add that both Worm and I are old as dirt and have big boy life responsibilities and we found time to retake. There really is no excuse not to.

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kalvano
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby kalvano » Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:18 pm

Outside of UT / SMU / UofH, the ONLY other school in Texas that MIGHT be worth attending is Tech, because it's generally very inexpensive to do so. Neither of these two schools will do much for you. If you want to be an attorney so bad, suck it up and do some work on the LSAT.

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romothesavior
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby romothesavior » Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:54 pm

Kenneth417 wrote:Thanks for explaining that. If I had better opportunities at my disposal I would definitely take advantage of them but since I don't most likely I am going to pursue my legal education at one of these schools. My love for discovering new aspects of the law with the intent of becoming an individual who can use this knowledge to make a living is why attending one of these schools is a strong possibility.

In addition to reconsidering your decision to attend vs. retake, I think you also need to reconsider and research what it means to be a lawyer. You are gushing about legal education in a way that makes me seriously question whether you know what you're getting into. Most of the jobs available to you as a St. Mary's or South Texas grad will have little to do with "discovering new aspects of the law."

Please read through some of the "areyouinsane" stories that wormfather linked above.

JS281
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby JS281 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:35 pm

I'm not trying to start an argument with anybody here but what if OP takes the year off and doesn't improve his LSAT score? He could study his ass off and come test day completely freeze up and tank. Or maybe he studies his ass off and gets the same score?

Of course the odds of him doing better are in his favor if he studies for the x amount of months but it's not guaranteed. OP might be afraid that if he puts all of the effort in and it doesn't pay off then he's just wasted a year that could have been spent in law school.


Some of y'all have brought up examples of y'all taking time off to retake the LSAT and improving your score by 10+ points. Maybe y'all are the outliers when it comes to that? I don't know. But I can sympathize with OP if he's afraid that he'll potentially waste a year of his life and then be expected to jump straight back into the academic lifestyle after taking time off.


Just my thoughts.

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patrickd139
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby patrickd139 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:51 pm

JS281 wrote:I'm not trying to start an argument with anybody here but what if OP takes the year off and doesn't improve his LSAT score? He could study his ass off and come test day completely freeze up and tank. Or maybe he studies his ass off and gets the same score?

Of course the odds of him doing better are in his favor if he studies for the x amount of months but it's not guaranteed. OP might be afraid that if he puts all of the effort in and it doesn't pay off then he's just wasted a year that could have been spent in law school.


Some of y'all have brought up examples of y'all taking time off to retake the LSAT and improving your score by 10+ points. Maybe y'all are the outliers when it comes to that? I don't know. But I can sympathize with OP if he's afraid that he'll potentially waste a year of his life and then be expected to jump straight back into the academic lifestyle after taking time off.


Just my thoughts.

Valid concerns, for sure. I think the advice at that point would be to consider another career/investment of OP's money. Going to law school is not some "right" everyone should have. Neither school is worth going to at those prices if OP'a goal is to become a practicing attorney.

Kenneth417
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby Kenneth417 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:53 pm

If you're planning to attend law school then everyone's goal is to become a practicing attorney. You are making untruthful assumptions about somebody you don't even know. Not every person has the ability to gain admission to a T14 and many students that don't attend those top schools still become successful lawyers. Being successful in your eyes is most likely different from being successful in mine. Almost 80% of the graduating class at St.Marys did have an opportunity to work in the legal field and 80% is a percentage I am willing to take the risk for.

BigZuck
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby BigZuck » Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:59 pm

This kind of stubbornness is bizarre to me. I mean, I'm a strong willed and borderline stubborn person but last year when I was applying to these type if schools and then discovered TLS I took all the info in with both eyes open, dropped any sense of pride or vision that I was special, and did the right thing.

I'm calling troll again.

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Rahviveh
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby Rahviveh » Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:06 pm

BigZuck wrote:This kind of stubbornness is bizarre to me. I mean, I'm a strong willed and borderline stubborn person but last year when I was applying to these type if schools and then discovered TLS I took all the info in with both eyes open, dropped any sense of pride or vision that I was special, and did the right thing.

I'm calling troll again.


Nah. For every one of you, there's five others who ignore this kind of advice.

Some of you are too quick to call people trolls - and that indicates to me that you do not talk to many 0L's in real life about law school.

BigZuck
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby BigZuck » Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:15 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
BigZuck wrote:This kind of stubbornness is bizarre to me. I mean, I'm a strong willed and borderline stubborn person but last year when I was applying to these type if schools and then discovered TLS I took all the info in with both eyes open, dropped any sense of pride or vision that I was special, and did the right thing.

I'm calling troll again.


Nah. For every one of you, there's five others who ignore this kind of advice.

Some of you are too quick to call people trolls - and that indicates to me that you do not talk to many 0L's in real life about law school.


I can't fathom coming on to a site like this, reading around and seeing the top of advice given, then being compelled to create an account and asking a question, and then fighting back against everything that people tell you. But you're probably right.

As for 0Ls in "real" life, absolutely. It just surprises me when people go to the trouble to make an account and actually ask the question and fight back so vehemently. If you don't like the answer (and already have an idea of what it will be before asking just from basic familiarity with the site) and will fight against it tooth and nail then why ask the question?

empyreanrrv
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby empyreanrrv » Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:18 pm

If OP's situation is St. Mary's or South Texas with 50k debt, surely that's not the worst thing in the world? Debt is low and he is not looking for prestigious legal work. If the debt includes CoL, why are so many people against this. Sure, he could improve his chances with a retake, but it isn't like he's considering Touro at sticker. What am I missing?

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Rahviveh
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby Rahviveh » Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:21 pm

BigZuck wrote:I can't fathom coming on to a site like this, reading around and seeing the top of advice given, then being compelled to create an account and asking a question, and then fighting back against everything that people tell you. But you're probably right.

As for 0Ls in "real" life, absolutely. It just surprises me when people go to the trouble to make an account and actually ask the question and fight back so vehemently. If you don't like the answer (and already have an idea of what it will be before asking just from basic familiarity with the site) and will fight against it tooth and nail then why ask the question?


Yeah, but some people don't lurk much before making an account. On my first day discovering this site, I made a thread asking a very dumb question in the WAMC forum :D

OP is in a rough position. Getting a 156 after four months of studying is very demoralizing.




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