St. Marys vs South Texas

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North
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby North » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:47 pm

Kenneth417 wrote:How is my logic terrible? What your saying is that the student body at these schools have a better chance at failing than becoming a quality attorney. I think those law students would have to disagree with your assumption.

You misunderstand. It's not a matter of whether graduates from the schools you're considering can be quality attorneys, but whether they ever get the chance to.

Kenneth417 wrote:You get out of life what you put into it and everything I have accomplished up to this point in my life is due the approach I take and it have never steered me wrong.

Then why don't you take that approach with the LSAT?

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holdencaulfield
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby holdencaulfield » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:07 pm

North wrote:It costs way less than $50,000 to put some work into the LSAT, dude. Can't say you weren't warned.


This. Also, out of curiosity, what is your LSAT?

jeffyl00b
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby jeffyl00b » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:40 pm

Every thread on this site runs together for being the same.

So, which is better if we're going on tangents and not answering the OP
A) Making 1600 a month at a dead end office job
B) Making 1600 a month after loan expenses at a law career with whatever options come with the degree.

Unfortunately, I can't tell if letter B involves the usual non-college graduate micro-managing boss, so the decision is, of course, tough.

Edit, I just remembered how I was yelled at on page 2 of another thread because I didn't mentioned I'm talking about the various tangents on page 1, one page back.

timbs4339
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:50 pm

jeffyl00b wrote:Every thread on this site runs together for being the same.

So, which is better if we're going on tangents and not answering the OP
A) Making 1600 a month at a dead end office job
B) Making 1600 a month after loan expenses at a law career with whatever options come with the degree.

Unfortunately, I can't tell if letter B involves the usual non-college graduate micro-managing boss, so the decision is, of course, tough.

Edit, I just remembered how I was yelled at on page 2 of another thread because I didn't mentioned I'm talking about the various tangents on page 1, one page back.


Seriously?

timbs4339
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:54 pm

Kenneth417 wrote:How is my logic terrible? What your saying is that the student body at these schools have a better chance at failing than becoming a quality attorney. I think those law students would have to disagree with your assumption. You get out of life what you put into it and everything I have accomplished up to this point in my life is due the approach I take and it have never steered me wrong. Im not saying what you have to offer is completely false but there are always execptions to every argument and I plan on being one of those exceptions. I greatly appreciate what you have had to say though. Thanks.


I know right. I was at the casino a few years ago and put 100K on black and some guy was like hey is that really a good idea, you know you win less than half the time. And I was like dude don't kill my buzz. I know what you have to offer isn't completely false but there are always exceptions to every argument and I plan on being one of those exceptions.

Then I hit black and won 200K and blew it all on a shitty law school.

BigZuck
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby BigZuck » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:12 pm

Kenneth417 wrote:How is my logic terrible? What your saying is that the student body at these schools have a better chance at failing than becoming a quality attorney. I think those law students would have to disagree with your assumption. You get out of life what you put into it and everything I have accomplished up to this point in my life is due the approach I take and it have never steered me wrong. Im not saying what you have to offer is completely false but there are always execptions to every argument and I plan on being one of those exceptions. I greatly appreciate what you have had to say though. Thanks.


Now I'm calling flame.

If real: I can go to UT for 100K. U fing T. And I'm still afraid of the debt. 30% chance I won't even be a lawyer. That sucks.

You are just as unspecial as I am. Make a good choice.

Retake.

texas man
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby texas man » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:33 pm

Kenneth417,

If you are set on either St. Mary's or South Texas, go and visit the schools. Talk to the students—preferably 3Ls—about their job prospects. See if you can sit in some classes. You will likely have a different perspective after the visits.

Also, statistics can be helpful tools in your decision-making, but they don't determine your future. Your ability and skill (and personality) when practicing law after graduation has much to do with your future success or failure as an attorney. If your first job out of law school is working at a small firm, or for a solo, making $45K, this is not likely what your salary will be five years later. If you do a good job, you'll likely be making more within five years; if you do a bad job, you might be looking for something else to do before you reach five years.

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patrickd139
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby patrickd139 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:27 pm

Just in case this isn't clear from my prior posts (and so you can come back later to this thread and see where I told you so if you do decide to go to these schools):

I think it is a terrible, awful idea to attend either of the schools you are currently considering in this thread.

Kenneth417
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby Kenneth417 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:37 pm

LSAT-156 GPA - 3.63

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North
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby North » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:41 pm

Kenneth417 wrote:LSAT-156 GPA - 3.63

Wow. Okay, I started out at a 152 and retook the LSAT until I got a 173. Spent a year doing it, too. I have a 3.3. I would KILL for that GPA. Don't waste it. Don't.

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philosoraptor
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby philosoraptor » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:50 am

Kenneth417 wrote:Im not saying what you have to offer is completely false but there are always execptions to every argument and I plan on being one of those exceptions.

Kenneth417 wrote:Even if I only earn a starting salary of 40 or 50k the opportunities that I can make for myself are great from gaining a large amount of experience.

With these two quotes, you're telling us that you have no idea what you're getting yourself into.

First, you CANNOT plan to finish at the top of your class in law school. Every single one of your potential classmates at these TTTs will believe that he or she is a special snowflake and will beat the odds with a little hard work. Sadly, you are not. No matter how hard you plan to work, there is a 50% chance you will be in the bottom half of the class, and a 90% chance you will not be in the top 10%. Now is the last time you will have some semblance of control over your own destiny, solely through the LSAT.

Second, do you realize that making $50K out of one of these schools is not the worst-case scenario, but the BEST-case scenario? A quick glance at Law School Transparency shows that at South Texas, less than a fifth of the class of 2011 reported a salary (with a median of $55K). Guess what? The people who report salaries are the ones who actually have salaries. The rest, who knows? As LST puts it, "We know that at least 9.6% of this school's graduates made $55,000 or more." For St. Mary's, 8.4% reported a salary. That does not bode well for your chances of making a salary worth reporting.

You have no discernible chance at biglaw from either school, and if you're lucky enough to get a legal job at all, it will not pay enough to service a $120,000 debt at 7–9% interest. (Keep in mind that student loans are nondischargeable in bankruptcy.) You also appear to be assuming that if you hit the jackpot with your $40K small-firm job in the middle of nowhere, Texas, you'll get great experience that will somehow translate into valuable opportunities down the road. While I doubt that's categorically false, I also think it's a rather slim prospect on which to hang your three-year, $120K hat.

As an aside, early in the thread you posted that you would be taking out $100K-$120K in loans, and later you said $50K. Are you trying to deceive yourself to make these schools sound more attractive?

Finally, do you think the people in this thread giving you this advice have anything to gain from what we tell you? No -- we've just been in the thick of the legal hiring process the past couple of years (some of us in Texas), and I guarantee you we know better than some random South Texas/St. Mary's alum who graduated before the bubble burst. We're trying to help you not ruin your financial life.

If you're truly set on becoming a lawyer, retake and reapply. Otherwise, don't go to law school. I don't know how we can make this any clearer.

005618502
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby 005618502 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:05 pm

Dude even taking full loans for 2 years is not worth it for these schools.... please reconsider. Retake the LSAT, you dont want to go to these schools with no scholly monies

BigZuck
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby BigZuck » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:07 pm

If OP hits 167+ he's pretty much a lock for UT. And that is an infinitely better option than these schools.

I scored similarly to you my first time around OP, retook and ended up scoring in a range that got me UT with money. Takes work but totally doable.

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romothesavior
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby romothesavior » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:56 pm

Kenneth417 wrote:How is my logic terrible? What your saying is that the student body at these schools have a better chance at failing than becoming a quality attorney. I think those law students would have to disagree with your assumption. You get out of life what you put into it and everything I have accomplished up to this point in my life is due the approach I take and it have never steered me wrong. Im not saying what you have to offer is completely false but there are always execptions to every argument and I plan on being one of those exceptions. I greatly appreciate what you have had to say though. Thanks.

It's simple statistics, my friend. While these aren't the worst T3 and T4 schools out there, at the end of the day, only a little more than half of their graduates are going to work in permanent, full-time, J.D.-required jobs (aka real lawyering jobs). All 100% of the students at the school might be qualified to practice, I can't speak to that. But many of them will never get the opportunity to. If you can go for very cheap, then again, Id go to the one with better job data. But if you can retake, you should do so.

Yes "life is what you put into it" and blah blah blah, but don't you think every student who goes into law school expects to work hard and be successful? I'm a 3L at a top 25 school, and I can't even count the number of smart, hard-working, good people I know who are jobless. Some may still land something, but some may never work as lawyers. There is nothing wrong with most of these people. They're sociable, they're dedicated, they're competent. It's supremely cocky and misguided for you to assume you'll have it better than they did, especially at some Tier 4 school. Hard work and brains are not sufficient to get by in this profession anymore. It's not as simple as "work hard ---> success." The competition is stiff, and you're putting yourself well behind the 8 ball getting a degree from St. Mary's or South Texas.

Please stop thinking about this under the "rah rah, work hard and you can grow up to be anything you want" mindset your kindergarten teacher imputed onto you, and start thinking about this like a business decision and an investment. Your naivete is stifling. Your legal degree, should you choose to obtain one, will likely be the biggest investment you ever make in your life. The time and money invested and the return on that investment will lay the foundation for the rest of your life.

uvabro
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby uvabro » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:31 pm

Kenneth, don't listen to these people. You should not retake the LSAT because it isn't so learnable and a lot of work, because you can just go to one of these schools and be #1 in your class. B/w these 2 st. mary's has the national appeal so if you're looking to work out of state or do supreme court type clerkships or potentially become a professor at a top 14 that's a better bet, but south texas will get Jaurez big law so it depends on if you just want to make the big bucks or if you'd like to be in academia. a 156 is a strong score, and most people who score a 156 tend to make big money in this profession. it is the people with 155s and 157s who are struggling.

BigZuck
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby BigZuck » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:40 pm

uvabro wrote:Kenneth, don't listen to these people. You should not retake the LSAT because it isn't so learnable and a lot of work, because you can just go to one of these schools and be #1 in your class. B/w these 2 st. mary's has the national appeal so if you're looking to work out of state or do supreme court type clerkships or potentially become a professor at a top 14 that's a better bet, but south texas will get Jaurez big law so it depends on if you just want to make the big bucks or if you'd like to be in academia. a 156 is a strong score, and most people who score a 156 tend to make big money in this profession. it is the people with 155s and 157s who are struggling.


How are you not banned by now?

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potterpirate04
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby potterpirate04 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:40 pm

BigZuck wrote:
uvabro wrote:Kenneth, don't listen to these people. You should not retake the LSAT because it isn't so learnable and a lot of work, because you can just go to one of these schools and be #1 in your class. B/w these 2 st. mary's has the national appeal so if you're looking to work out of state or do supreme court type clerkships or potentially become a professor at a top 14 that's a better bet, but south texas will get Jaurez big law so it depends on if you just want to make the big bucks or if you'd like to be in academia. a 156 is a strong score, and most people who score a 156 tend to make big money in this profession. it is the people with 155s and 157s who are struggling.


How are you not banned by now?


I've literally been wondering the same thing for the longest time.

uvabro
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby uvabro » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:07 pm

potterpirate04 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
uvabro wrote:Kenneth, don't listen to these people. You should not retake the LSAT because it isn't so learnable and a lot of work, because you can just go to one of these schools and be #1 in your class. B/w these 2 st. mary's has the national appeal so if you're looking to work out of state or do supreme court type clerkships or potentially become a professor at a top 14 that's a better bet, but south texas will get Jaurez big law so it depends on if you just want to make the big bucks or if you'd like to be in academia. a 156 is a strong score, and most people who score a 156 tend to make big money in this profession. it is the people with 155s and 157s who are struggling.


How are you not banned by now?


I've literally been wondering the same thing for the longest time.

ya'll be hatin'

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dailygrind
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby dailygrind » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:27 pm

potterpirate04 wrote:
BigZuck wrote:
uvabro wrote:Kenneth, don't listen to these people. You should not retake the LSAT because it isn't so learnable and a lot of work, because you can just go to one of these schools and be #1 in your class. B/w these 2 st. mary's has the national appeal so if you're looking to work out of state or do supreme court type clerkships or potentially become a professor at a top 14 that's a better bet, but south texas will get Jaurez big law so it depends on if you just want to make the big bucks or if you'd like to be in academia. a 156 is a strong score, and most people who score a 156 tend to make big money in this profession. it is the people with 155s and 157s who are struggling.


How are you not banned by now?


I've literally been wondering the same thing for the longest time.


We keep banning him for short bans, but it doesn't seem to have an effect. A longer ban seems to be in order.

Kenneth417
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby Kenneth417 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:30 pm

I know the majority of you are against my decision to attend either of these schools but based on your knowledge from law school transparency if you had to choose between South Texas or St. Marys which one would you choose? I know you are probably going to provide me with the answer of neither but please choose one or the other on my behalf. It would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

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patrickd139
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby patrickd139 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:34 pm

Kenneth417 wrote:I know the majority of you are against my decision to attend either of these schools but based on your knowledge from law school transparency if you had to choose between South Texas or St. Marys which one would you choose? I know you are probably going to provide me with the answer of neither but please choose one or the other on my behalf. It would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Neither. You literally may as well flip a coin.

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North
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby North » Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:48 pm

Kenneth417 wrote:I know the majority of you are against my decision to attend either of these schools but based on your knowledge from law school transparency if you had to choose between South Texas or St. Marys which one would you choose? I know you are probably going to provide me with the answer of neither but please choose one or the other on my behalf. It would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Spend your 50k to open a Moe's franchise. That's a way better investment than this awful decision.

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romothesavior
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby romothesavior » Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:57 pm

Kenneth417 wrote:I know the majority of you are against my decision to attend either of these schools but based on your knowledge from law school transparency if you had to choose between South Texas or St. Marys which one would you choose? I know you are probably going to provide me with the answer of neither but please choose one or the other on my behalf. It would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

You can look at them and decide for yourself, but I'd go wherever is cheaper if you are unwilling to retake.

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hephaestus
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby hephaestus » Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:04 pm

What is the specific reason you will not retake?

Kenneth417
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Re: St. Marys vs South Texas

Postby Kenneth417 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:18 pm

I already did retake. I received a 151 my first attempt and then after another 4 months of excruciating study I received a 156. That is why I do not plan take the LSAT again. St. Marys has an employment score close to 70% which is higher than some of the top 30 schools in the nation including Boston Univerisity and Washington and Lee. What makes these top schools more attractive when they hold employment scores of 50% and 60% respectively? I am trying to broaden my knowledge pertaining to this subject matter so that is why I have have numerous questions regarding choosing a law school. Thanks again for all your help ahead of time.




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