Vermont Law School: Should I Move Across the Country?

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Baseball_2013
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Vermont Law School: Should I Move Across the Country?

Postby Baseball_2013 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:46 pm

I have been weighing the pros and cons of moving from Washington State to attend Vermont Law School next Fall. So far, it is the highest ranked law school that I have been accepted into (119 according the US News) and was wondering if anyone had any thoughts and opinions regarding Vermont Law School. I want to know if moving across the country would be advised since I may not get into a higher ranked school. Any thoughts? Thanks!

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stillwater
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Re: Vermont Law School: Should I Move Across the Country?

Postby stillwater » Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:47 pm

nah bro. dont do it

rad lulz
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Re: Vermont Law School: Should I Move Across the Country?

Postby rad lulz » Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:49 pm


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Ramius
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Re: Vermont Law School: Should I Move Across the Country?

Postby Ramius » Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:55 pm

Are you going to make a thread about every one of your options until you land on one TLS groupthink approves of? If so, let me save you the time and tell you it won't happen. None of your options are worthwhile. Retake.

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cinephile
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Re: Vermont Law School: Should I Move Across the Country?

Postby cinephile » Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:55 pm

You're talking about a school that's on the verge of closing?
Retake for UW or the T14 or your choice.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Vermont Law School: Should I Move Across the Country?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:04 pm

Normally, I would say, do you want to practice in Vermont? (Because all law schools except HYS and maybe the T-14 are really regional schools.) But in this case I wouldn't, because - well, it's Vermont. Gorgeous state and all, but I can't imagine there's anything like a legal market there.

Because it's Vermont, do you want to do environmental law? Specialty rankings are a flame, but I have seen a fair number of Vermont grads in environmental law positions. Let's put it this way - I don't think going to Vermont is a good idea, you're much better going someplace better and trying to get environmental law from there. But if you don't want to do environmental law, there is absolutely no reason at all to go to Vermont.

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romothesavior
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Re: Vermont Law School: Should I Move Across the Country?

Postby romothesavior » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:15 pm

Move across the country for a school like Vermont? Horrible idea.

Baseball_2013
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Re: Vermont Law School: Should I Move Across the Country?

Postby Baseball_2013 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:32 pm

matthewsean85 wrote:Are you going to make a thread about every one of your options until you land on one TLS groupthink approves of? If so, let me save you the time and tell you it won't happen. None of your options are worthwhile. Retake.


I'm not concerned about whether or not someone approves of my options. I am just interested in people's views about specific schools. I am certainly not interested in being patronized. I feel that your career is what you make of it and if you are willing to work hard and connect with people, then all of my options could be worthwhile. I do appreciate everyone taking the time to respond though.

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hephaestus
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Re: Vermont Law School: Should I Move Across the Country?

Postby hephaestus » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:36 pm

Baseball_2013 wrote:
matthewsean85 wrote:Are you going to make a thread about every one of your options until you land on one TLS groupthink approves of? If so, let me save you the time and tell you it won't happen. None of your options are worthwhile. Retake.


I'm not concerned about whether or not someone approves of my options. I am just interested in people's views about specific schools. I am certainly not interested in being patronized. I feel that your career is what you make of it and if you are willing to work hard and connect with people, then all of my options could be worthwhile. I do appreciate everyone taking the time to respond though.

Here's the view: it's a horrible choice. Their employment score is awful and they charge a fortune.

timbs4339
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Re: Vermont Law School: Should I Move Across the Country?

Postby timbs4339 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:39 pm

What kind of law do you want to practice? Where do you want to practice?

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mephistopheles
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Re: Vermont Law School: Should I Move Across the Country?

Postby mephistopheles » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:41 pm

i hear maple syrup law is on a tear these days.

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Ramius
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Re: Vermont Law School: Should I Move Across the Country?

Postby Ramius » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:44 pm

Baseball_2013 wrote:
matthewsean85 wrote:Are you going to make a thread about every one of your options until you land on one TLS groupthink approves of? If so, let me save you the time and tell you it won't happen. None of your options are worthwhile. Retake.


I'm not concerned about whether or not someone approves of my options. I am just interested in people's views about specific schools. I am certainly not interested in being patronized. I feel that your career is what you make of it and if you are willing to work hard and connect with people, then all of my options could be worthwhile. I do appreciate everyone taking the time to respond though.


Okay, I will play the completely civil role in this then. Of all your options, regardless of how well you think you can "work hard and connect with people," they will all likely end in financial ruin. They might not, but what kind of personal financial situation is so nice that you can take a $250k gamble on a <40% chance of gainful employment at $40k/year? I understand your belief in yourself, but in the face of that debt, aren't you the least bit worried about things not working out well? That would be incredibly ballsy.

Additionally, why are these options better than taking a year to study for and retake the LSAT, hoping to score higher and increase your chance of being employed? Even if you aren't shooting for BIGLAW and fat paychecks, wouldn't you rather go to these schools for free? Don't hold yourself back, you can learn the LSAT and have much better options at your disposal.

I hope you make the right decision and figure out a better way to pursue a legal career.

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romothesavior
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Re: Vermont Law School: Should I Move Across the Country?

Postby romothesavior » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:54 pm

Instead of relying on the "work hard and you can be anything you want" platitudes your kindergarten teacher gave you, you should actually take a moment to listen to the current law students, practicing attorneys, and professors who have responded to your inquiries. We actually know a thing or two about the legal market, and the overwhelming consensus is going to be RUN from all of them. It's not because we are rude or snobby or have anything against you personally. It all comes down to the huge prices of these schools, the objective job data we have available to us, and the reputations these schools have in the legal community. These would all be horrible, horrible investments.

The bottom line is this: the schools are you looking at all have abysmal job prospects, and the odds of you getting a decent job from one of them is very, very poor. At all of them, less than half the graduates found full-time, permanent, J.D.-required jobs. I'm not talking about big firm jobs or high paying jobs or prestigious jobs; I mean to say that less than half of the students from these school get jobs as lawyers. Some go solo, but with $200,000 in non-dischargeable debt and no clients, that would be a financial death wish. Look at the data and see for yourself:

Whittier- 17% employed as lawyers
Vermont- 48% employed as lawyers
Thomas Jefferson- 25% employed as lawyers
Phoenix (a for-profit school)- 33% employed as lawyers
Monterey- What is this? Is it even an ABA approved school?

You either need to retake or not go, or you will be looking at the worst decision of your life.

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Ramius
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Re: Vermont Law School: Should I Move Across the Country?

Postby Ramius » Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:08 pm

romothesavior wrote:Instead of relying on the "work hard and you can be anything you want" platitudes your kindergarten teacher gave you, you should actually take a moment to listen to the current law students, practicing attorneys, and professors who have responded to your inquiries. We actually know a thing or two about the legal market, and the overwhelming consensus is going to be RUN from all of them. It's not because we are rude or snobby or have anything against you personally. It all comes down to the huge prices of these schools, the objective job data we have available to us, and the reputations these schools have in the legal community. These would all be horrible, horrible investments.

The bottom line is this: the schools are you looking at all have abysmal job prospects, and the odds of you getting a decent job from one of them is very, very poor. At all of them, less than half the graduates found full-time, permanent, J.D.-required jobs. I'm not talking about big firm jobs or high paying jobs or prestigious jobs; I mean to say that less than half of the students from these school get jobs as lawyers. Some go solo, but with $200,000 in non-dischargeable debt and no clients, that would be a financial death wish. Look at the data and see for yourself:

Whittier- 17% employed as lawyers
Vermont- 48% employed as lawyers
Thomas Jefferson- 25% employed as lawyers
Phoenix (a for-profit school)- 33% employed as lawyers
Monterey- What is this? Is it even an ABA approved school?

You either need to retake or not go, or you will be looking at the worst decision of your life.


Romo, this is long overdue, but I love your 'tar. Hilarious.

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haus
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Re: Vermont Law School: Should I Move Across the Country?

Postby haus » Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:34 pm

mephistopheles wrote:i hear maple syrup law is on a tear these days.

It appears that across the border millions of dollars in maple syrup thefts have occurred.

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/arti ... syrup-case

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Ramius
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Re: Vermont Law School: Should I Move Across the Country?

Postby Ramius » Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:40 pm

haus wrote:
mephistopheles wrote:i hear maple syrup law is on a tear these days.

It appears that across the border millions of dollars in maple syrup thefts have occurred.

http://www.burlingtonfreepress.com/arti ... syrup-case


Someone needs to call the Ryan brothers, their conglomerate is in perilous danger. If anyone can save it, Vince Vaughn can.

PRgradBYU
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Re: Vermont Law School: Should I Move Across the Country?

Postby PRgradBYU » Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:50 pm

If Vermont is the highest ranked law school you've gotten into, either retake the LSAT or don't go to law school.

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buddyt
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Re: Vermont Law School: Should I Move Across the Country?

Postby buddyt » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:47 pm

PRgradBYU wrote:If Vermont is the highest ranked law school you've gotten into, either retake the LSAT or don't go to law school.

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cahwc12
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Re: Vermont Law School: Should I Move Across the Country?

Postby cahwc12 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:49 pm

Baseball_2013 wrote:I have been weighing the pros and cons of moving from Washington State to attend Vermont Law School next Fall. So far, it is the highest ranked law school that I have been accepted into (119 according the US News) and was wondering if anyone had any thoughts and opinions regarding Vermont Law School. I want to know if moving across the country would be advised since I may not get into a higher ranked school. Any thoughts? Thanks!


Your 147 LSAT is terrible (re: terrible) and if you can't put in the effort necessary to at least get something resembling a respectable score, you should go nowhere near law school. Moreover, your GPA is a death knell for merit aid. Nowhere you can go other than NU could be worth paying sticker at, and you probably need a 170 AND some quality work experience to get an admit there. If you care passionately about the law, get involved in your local city/county/state government, or become a paralegal. A career in law is not only not for you, but a pipe dream with your current numbers.

When everyone thinks you're crazy, you should stop and think about why that might be. Applications are so low this year that you may well get into a better school with your numbers, but for all intents and purposes you're going to use taxpayer money and your credit rating to escape reality for three years and then be mired by decades of bad credit and poor job prospects. Is that what you want?

And just in case it isn't clear enough what a terrible decision you're thinking about making, here is a list of threads of top 10 schools where people question the value at sticker:

Columbia/NYU worth sticker?
Penn worth sticker?
Michigan worth sticker?
UVA worth sticker?
Berkeley worth sticker?
Duke worth sticker?

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kapital98
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Re: Vermont Law School: Should I Move Across the Country?

Postby kapital98 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:15 pm

A 147/2.96? I'm one of the most pro-"go" people on this site and it's pretty hard to recommend law school.

I would only recommend going to law school if:
1) You can get an excellent scholarship from one of those T4's; or,
2) You are dead set on public interest (loan forgiveness route).

If you can increase your LSAT score by ~10 points you will save yourself $150k in debt and probably increase your future annual income (better school + better scholarship). A 10 point jump is not hard considering the bell curve of the test. An extra year of studying seems worth $150k+. The 2.96 GPA is not terrible. It's your LSAT score holding you back.

Keasbey
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Re: Vermont Law School: Should I Move Across the Country?

Postby Keasbey » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:30 pm

I would retake if you think you can break 160. That would at least give you a chance at some good regional schools. If you don't think you can do this/aren't willing to, maybe you should sit down and consider a different career path. I'm not saying you can't be successful, but its honestly not worth putting yourself in that much debt.

Lord Randolph McDuff
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Re: Vermont Law School: Should I Move Across the Country?

Postby Lord Randolph McDuff » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:39 pm

Are you a URM? Has it gotten so bad that Vermont is accepting non URM 2.XX 14X applicants?

It appears very unlikely that you would pass the bar even if you finished law school. It's possible, but a huge risk for people with your numbers. Do not go to law school. If you don't have the work ethic to/smarts/mojo, whatever to get more than half the questions right on the entry exam AND you were lazy/didn't develop study skills in college and received a 2.9 GPA, then law school is the worst idea on the planet. I would try working and forget about school.

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paranoia4ya
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Re: Vermont Law School: Should I Move Across the Country?

Postby paranoia4ya » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:14 pm

He didis improve his grades in the last two years so it wouldnt be correct to assume that he is incapable of performing in school. It is important to consider the fact that each person is different. I personally will not attend any law school if my parents were not supporting me (and the school did not give me a substantial scholarship.) The fact of the matter is, most people in this country end up spending a fortune going to undergraduate schools with remarkably low placement figures. They do not get picked on as much because they are part of the majority in our society. People at tls will give you an objective elitist point of view of law school. I know for a fact that my career prospects would improve after undergrad if i went to vermont law school, but i still would not go. You seemed determined to go to a 1st tier school in your other posts. Combining that with the fact that you are now considering a school that is ranked below average is confusing. Get your head straight.

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dr123
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Re: Vermont Law School: Should I Move Across the Country?

Postby dr123 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:27 pm

Retake for UW or Gonzaga with a substantial scholly.

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romothesavior
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Re: Vermont Law School: Should I Move Across the Country?

Postby romothesavior » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:47 pm

paranoia4ya wrote:He didis improve his grades in the last two years so it wouldnt be correct to assume that he is incapable of performing in school. It is important to consider the fact that each person is different. I personally will not attend any law school if my parents were not supporting me (and the school did not give me a substantial scholarship.) The fact of the matter is, most people in this country end up spending a fortune going to undergraduate schools with remarkably low placement figures. They do not get picked on as much because they are part of the majority in our society. People at tls will give you an objective elitist point of view of law school. I know for a fact that my career prospects would improve after undergrad if i went to vermont law school, but i still would not go. You seemed determined to go to a 1st tier school in your other posts. Combining that with the fact that you are now considering a school that is ranked below average is confusing. Get your head straight.

This was one of the most bipolar posts I've ever read. TLS offers an objective elitist point of view, but you wouldn't go to law school without parental help, and though each person is different, OP should "get his head straight" and go to a T1. I think we're agreement here (OP shouldn't go to Vermont), but I'm not sure I really follow all your other points.




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