Thomas Jefferson School of Law?

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Crowing
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?

Postby Crowing » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:51 am

kappycaft1 wrote:
Crowing wrote:Man kappycaft1 you've been making a serious push for the TLS Mean Girls lately.

:lol: I honestly wonder how many people on here are trolls... first the guy spamming about Regents, and now this dude with Thomas Jefferson. I treat all users who post about schools with clearly shitty outcomes equally (as trolls). I mean, there isn't any way that they could come to a site called "www.top-law-schools.com" and make such posts without being trolls.


Well to be fair I don't think there's an equivalent "www.shit-law-schools.com" or anything like that. Maybe that'll be my side project after I graduate and decide to go into real estate.

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ManoftheHour
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?

Postby ManoftheHour » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:51 am

rickgrimes69 wrote:
I have recently been accepted to TJSL and am wondering if anyone has any encouraging information regarding this school.


The best part is that nobody is forcing you to go. The reason you are hearing so much discouraging information regarding TJSL is because it has been ranked as the fifth worst law school in the country. Roughly one quarter of their 2011 class found work as a lawyer. That's inexcusably, ridiculously awful, especially when considering the total cost of over a quarter million dollars.

Run away. Run as fast as you can.


I took my last LSAT at Whittier. There were two people that I talked to there that wanted to attend.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?

Postby bizzybone1313 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:58 am

Well, someone has to be the person that enrolls at Thomas Jefferson, right? It is mind boggling to me how the bottom 100 schools find enough people to enroll at their schools. I know a girl from my undergrad that attended South Texas College of Law even though she had a 3.9. Apparently, she isn't all that bright after all. She should have taken her 3.9 to a top ten MBA program instead.

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eav1277
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?

Postby eav1277 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:13 am

Circlewave wrote:if you have the money to blow, go to the casino and find a roulette table, then put your tuition money on black. you've got better odds.


Very true~

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ManoftheHour
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?

Postby ManoftheHour » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:17 am

bizzybone1313 wrote:Well, someone has to be the person that enrolls at Thomas Jefferson, right? It is mind boggling to me how the bottom 100 schools find enough people to enroll at their schools. I know a girl from my undergrad that attended South Texas College of Law even though she had a 3.9. Apparently, she isn't all that bright after all. She should have taken her 3.9 to a top ten MBA program instead.


If I had a 3.9, I wouldn't be retaking the LSAT for a regional T20 with $$$....

What a waste. Then again, it's my fault that I wasted my UG freshman year.

Btw, I love your quote of another quote:

"I began studying in August and took the test in December. I did not work or go to school during this time, and I had to move home with my parents to allow that. For some, that might not be possible, and for many more, it would be undesireable. For the latter among you, I suggest you take the time to assess what is really important: a test that can and will contribute significantly to determining the career opportunities you will have for the rest of your life, or your personal lifestyle for the next few months? If you lean towards the latter, I suggest you re-evaluate your commitment to law school to begin with." --TLS User: Unstoppable

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romothesavior
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?

Postby romothesavior » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:39 am

kappycaft1 wrote:
Crowing wrote:Man kappycaft1 you've been making a serious push for the TLS Mean Girls lately.

:lol: I honestly wonder how many people on here are trolls... first the guy spamming about Regents, and now this dude with Thomas Jefferson. I treat all users who post about schools with clearly shitty outcomes equally (as trolls). I mean, there isn't any way that they could come to a site called "www.top-law-schools.com" and make such posts without being trolls.

I disagree, and I while your post did make me chuckle and it may even help OP rethink his logic, I generally think it is important to treat people asking for advice as though they're genuine until they respond in a way that doesn't warrant respect. There are still tens of thousands of students spending six figures to go to horrible law schools every year. As an applicant pool, people are starting to wise up (fewer applicants, fewer matriculants, etc.), but we still have so many people making life-alteringly bad investments. People on TLS are always so fast to call OPs trolls for asking about horrible T3s and T4s, but there really are a lot of people out there trying to decide between schools like Whittier and TJSL, etc. It's no surprise they come to TLS for information, as it is the best online community for law school information.

Of course, sometimes these threads turn into certifiable shitshows (e.g., Barry v. Nova), but in general I think we should try to be helpful where we can and not assume bad motives.

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nickb285
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?

Postby nickb285 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:51 am

romothesavior wrote:I disagree, and I while your post did make me chuckle and it may even help OP rethink his logic, I generally think it is important to treat people asking for advice as though they're genuine until they respond in a way that doesn't warrant respect. There are still tens of thousands of students spending six figures to go to horrible law schools every year. As an applicant pool, people are starting to wise up (fewer applicants, fewer matriculants, etc.), but we still have so many people making life-alteringly bad investments. People on TLS are always so fast to call OPs trolls for asking about horrible T3s and T4s, but there really are a lot of people out there trying to decide between schools like Whittier and TJSL, etc. It's no surprise they come to TLS for information, as it is the best online community for law school information.

Of course, sometimes these threads turn into certifiable shitshows (e.g., Barry v. Nova), but in general I think we should try to be helpful where we can and not assume bad motives.


+1. If you Google "law school," the TLS main page comes up in the first page of results, and the TLS schools articles do not reflect the realities shown on this board (for reference, here's the TLS article on TJSL: http://www.top-law-schools.com/thomas-j ... f-law.html . Read the employment prospects section. This is the kind of crap that people thinking about law school have been reading all over the internet and all over law schools' websites, and hearing from boomer parents and relatives. So the idea that someone would read an article like that and think "Oh hey, I guess TJ is not a bad choice after all. I want to live in southern California, so I don't mind choosing between TJ and California Western, maybe I'll check out these forums and see what people think" is not unrealistic.

That said, kappycaft1's charts are hilariously awesome.

Circlewave
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?

Postby Circlewave » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:58 am

"The opening of the new facilities will likely continue to improve Thomas Jefferson School of Law."

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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TatteredDignity
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?

Postby TatteredDignity » Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:00 pm

Yeah, I think someone has a duty to update that profile on our main page. Unacceptable.

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nickb285
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?

Postby nickb285 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:40 pm

A lot of them are that way. U of DC ends with "For those applicants who are confident in their ability to excel, UDC is probably the most cost-effective route to a JD one will find." Golden Gate says "The employment prospects for students of Golden Gate Law are adequate...most graduates of Golden Gate Law are hired by Bay Area firms and public interest organizations, as public interest law is one of the school's specialties." Southwestern ends on " Indeed, there is nothing like going to school in Los Angeles. For students who crave this experience and who definitely want to practice in California, Southwestern Law can be a worthwhile choice."

Most of the TTT/TTTT profiles should just be updated to say "NO."

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star fox
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?

Postby star fox » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:27 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:Well, someone has to be the person that enrolls at Thomas Jefferson, right? It is mind boggling to me how the bottom 100 schools find enough people to enroll at their schools. I know a girl from my undergrad that attended South Texas College of Law even though she had a 3.9. Apparently, she isn't all that bright after all. She should have taken her 3.9 to a top ten MBA program instead.


People treat Law School like it's undergrad, "oh I don't need to go to a top law school somewhere fancy in the northeast, I'll just go to the local school nearby, that's good enough to get a job in the area". It's mind-boggling how many kids with great GPAs end up wasting it by not trying on the LSAT and happily accepting at a local TTT.

locthebloke
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?

Postby locthebloke » Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:05 am

This reads like a State News report from the DPRK

I sincerely hope RBG is just become senile with all this dribble.

http://www.tjsl.edu/news-media/2013/8648

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northwood
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?

Postby northwood » Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:32 am

Thomas Jefferson School of Law's Tuition s $21,000 per semester..... You can get a very decent used car ( or even some brand new cars) for that price...... Law school is 6 semesters long. Using this analogy, you would end up buying 6 new cars over the crourse of 3 year period. Does the numbers add up??

And that figure does not include fees, which will be added later, nor does it include cost of living ( which I would assume is $15,000 per year)

Thats about $170,000( assuming fees and such are $2,000 total).... PLUS interest

http://www.tjsl.edu/admissions/tuition

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northwood
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?

Postby northwood » Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:33 am

just another way to think about the cost of attendance

lmsf
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?

Postby lmsf » Fri Mar 01, 2013 3:15 pm

I read an interesting NYT article a while back about the tough situation many new lawyers find themselves in and the person profiled in the article was actually a Thomas Jefferson grad. I recommend reading: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/09/busin ... d=all&_r=0

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Crowing
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?

Postby Crowing » Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:05 pm

Well the TJSL profile got updated. Who writes those anyway?

crashhelmi
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?

Postby crashhelmi » Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:44 pm

So I'm actually a TJSL 2L (shocking, I know) who is heavily involved in the school (especially in extracurriculars) so maybe I can help answer a few questions candidly. No, I won't be a shill for the school because to be honest I'm not exactly thrilled about my time here overall. But while it's not nearly as great as admissions wants you to think it is it's also not nearly as bad as everyone on this board (especially that BS new version of the profile) says it is.

SO... is TJSL a scam? Yes and no. The administration is awful and it really seems at times they care absolutely nothing about us students. It takes forever to get funding for anything and most of the staff are completely unaccommodating and often downright rude. Deal Hasl especially... aside from getting us our gorgeous new building (which actually does live up to the hype... it's a great place to learn) he's done absolutely nothing positive in the two years I've been here. There is a new dean coming in so hopefully things will change dynamically but I'm not overly optimistic.

However, there actually are a lot of positives to the school. We have really good extracurricular activities, including a pretty good ADR team, very competitive moot court and mock trial teams and a half decent law review. The majority of our professors are outstanding and are very accessible - there are a few turds in the punch bowl but the school is pretty good about getting rid of them pretty quickly. It's also a great location to live for three years, though a few posters above are correct about the difficulty of finding work with USD and Cal Western so close (though Cal Western really isn't that much better than we are).

The biggest problem with the school is that they admit way too many people. If you're not willing to put in the work to distinguish yourself (especially OUTSIDE the classroom... people tend to forget this way too much) you're completely wasting your time. But if you work hard to align yourself with the right professors the resources are here for you to do well. It's just that 90% of the student body isn't willing or able to do that.

Overall, do I recommend coming to TJSL? I'll give the traditional law school answer - it depends. I've been successful here to date (I had a great internship last summer as a 1L in the field I want to get into and I was second in line for two incredible internships along the same lines) because I've taken advantage of the resources that are actually here, especially in the areas of IP and sports law. There aren't a ton of them but they do exist. But if you're looking for a school where you can just coast and find a job after graduation (or if you're looking to practice in a field where this school isn't very strong, which is most fields) don't waste your time. You shouldn't be going to law school anyway but here that's a $210,000 + interest mistake.

Obviously I've tried to stay away from giving specifics but if you want to PM me I'd be happy to talk to you more privately.

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Crowing
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?

Postby Crowing » Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:49 pm

I'm not knocking TJSL's new profile specifically, but I just don't think it makes sense to have that one paint its school as a shithole when the other TTTT profiles are still saying shit about how they can be decent options when they're just as bad.

crashhelmi
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?

Postby crashhelmi » Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:53 pm

Crowing wrote:I'm not knocking TJSL's new profile specifically, but I just don't think it makes sense to have that one paint its school as a shithole when the other TTTT profiles are still saying shit about how they can be decent options when they're just as bad.


Yeah I agree. TJSL isn't great overall but there are good things about it. The new profile makes it seem like there are absolutely no redeeming qualities about this school when there actually are. Not as many as other schools, but hey, that's why it's a TTTT.

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Ramius
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?

Postby Ramius » Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:54 pm

crashhelmi wrote:So I'm actually a TJSL 2L (shocking, I know) who is heavily involved in the school (especially in extracurriculars) so maybe I can help answer a few questions candidly. No, I won't be a shill for the school because to be honest I'm not exactly thrilled about my time here overall. But while it's not nearly as great as admissions wants you to think it is it's also not nearly as bad as everyone on this board (especially that BS new version of the profile) says it is.

SO... is TJSL a scam? Yes and no. The administration is awful and it really seems at times they care absolutely nothing about us students. It takes forever to get funding for anything and most of the staff are completely unaccommodating and often downright rude. Deal Hasl especially... aside from getting us our gorgeous new building (which actually does live up to the hype... it's a great place to learn) he's done absolutely nothing positive in the two years I've been here. There is a new dean coming in so hopefully things will change dynamically but I'm not overly optimistic.

However, there actually are a lot of positives to the school. We have really good extracurricular activities, including a pretty good ADR team, very competitive moot court and mock trial teams and a half decent law review. The majority of our professors are outstanding and are very accessible - there are a few turds in the punch bowl but the school is pretty good about getting rid of them pretty quickly. It's also a great location to live for three years, though a few posters above are correct about the difficulty of finding work with USD and Cal Western so close (though Cal Western really isn't that much better than we are).

The biggest problem with the school is that they admit way too many people. If you're not willing to put in the work to distinguish yourself (especially OUTSIDE the classroom... people tend to forget this way too much) you're completely wasting your time. But if you work hard to align yourself with the right professors the resources are here for you to do well. It's just that 90% of the student body isn't willing or able to do that.

Overall, do I recommend coming to TJSL? I'll give the traditional law school answer - it depends. I've been successful here to date (I had a great internship last summer as a 1L in the field I want to get into and I was second in line for two incredible internships along the same lines) because I've taken advantage of the resources that are actually here, especially in the areas of IP and sports law. There aren't a ton of them but they do exist. But if you're looking for a school where you can just coast and find a job after graduation (or if you're looking to practice in a field where this school isn't very strong, which is most fields) don't waste your time. You shouldn't be going to law school anyway but here that's a $210,000 + interest mistake.

Obviously I've tried to stay away from giving specifics but if you want to PM me I'd be happy to talk to you more privately.


Thank you for a fairly level-headed response to this thread. I have a question I'm curious about, and please don't take offense when I ask it, but how informed were you when you were considering law school and TJSL? I know statistics and information wasn't as advanced back in the pre-LST days as they are now, but the scam was already unfolding when you were looking at schools, was it not?

I'm not trying to demean your decision in any way, but I'm just curious how well you knew about TJSL's less than stellar employment numbers prior to attending? If you weren't very well-informed, in hindsight, would you do it again?

crashhelmi
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?

Postby crashhelmi » Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:05 pm

matthewsean85 wrote:Thank you for a fairly level-headed response to this thread. I have a question I'm curious about, and please don't take offense when I ask it, but how informed were you when you were considering law school and TJSL? I know statistics and information wasn't as advanced back in the pre-LST days as they are now, but the scam was already unfolding when you were looking at schools, was it not?

I'm not trying to demean your decision in any way, but I'm just curious how well you knew about TJSL's less than stellar employment numbers prior to attending? If you weren't very well-informed, in hindsight, would you do it again?


Don't worry, I'll be nice even though I do take some issue with the way you're asking your questions. :) I'll be completely honest: TJSL was not anywhere close to my top choice law schools for exactly those reasons... I had gotten rejected to my top choices and TJSL was a good fallback that was offering me a good amount of scholarship money. I did know about the employment numbers and I did know about the misleading statistics. (Retaking the LSAT and waiting a year wasn't an option for various reasons)

My story is somewhat different from everyone else because I have a very clear idea of where I want to go and TJSL has the program for it, so I felt confident that I could find the resources the school offered and to date I've been able to do that. Which is exactly my point: the decision to come here shouldn't be based on whether it's the only school that accepted you and you just really want to go to law school. That's stupid whether you're coming here or anywhere else. But I would absolutely make the same decision again because while the administration is incompetent the professors here are great and will bend over backwards to help you out if you actually put in the effort.

In large part I agree with everyone on this thread... if you're coming here because you really really want to go to law school you're going to be in for a really bad time. If you know what you're doing this can be a great place for you.

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Ramius
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?

Postby Ramius » Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:26 pm

crashhelmi wrote:
matthewsean85 wrote:Thank you for a fairly level-headed response to this thread. I have a question I'm curious about, and please don't take offense when I ask it, but how informed were you when you were considering law school and TJSL? I know statistics and information wasn't as advanced back in the pre-LST days as they are now, but the scam was already unfolding when you were looking at schools, was it not?

I'm not trying to demean your decision in any way, but I'm just curious how well you knew about TJSL's less than stellar employment numbers prior to attending? If you weren't very well-informed, in hindsight, would you do it again?


Don't worry, I'll be nice even though I do take some issue with the way you're asking your questions. :) I'll be completely honest: TJSL was not anywhere close to my top choice law schools for exactly those reasons... I had gotten rejected to my top choices and TJSL was a good fallback that was offering me a good amount of scholarship money. I did know about the employment numbers and I did know about the misleading statistics. (Retaking the LSAT and waiting a year wasn't an option for various reasons)

My story is somewhat different from everyone else because I have a very clear idea of where I want to go and TJSL has the program for it, so I felt confident that I could find the resources the school offered and to date I've been able to do that. Which is exactly my point: the decision to come here shouldn't be based on whether it's the only school that accepted you and you just really want to go to law school. That's stupid whether you're coming here or anywhere else. But I would absolutely make the same decision again because while the administration is incompetent the professors here are great and will bend over backwards to help you out if you actually put in the effort.

In large part I agree with everyone on this thread... if you're coming here because you really really want to go to law school you're going to be in for a really bad time. If you know what you're doing this can be a great place for you.


I apologize that the wording was a bit harsh, I was really trying to avoid a negative tone, and thank you for the polite response. I guess my curiosity was mostly in whether you were one of those to go in somewhat blind and yet be lucky enough to make things work out or if this was indeed your fallback option, but with a clear career in mind, you managed to make it work. Anyway, good luck with the rest of law school and I hope you can continue to be one of the lucky ones out of an otherwise grim picture.

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romothesavior
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?

Postby romothesavior » Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:34 pm

@ matt, I don't think you need to feel a need to apologize for that question. I don't think there is a softer, more polite way to ask it than how you did it. I am a c/o 2013er, and I'll say that the information wasn't packaged quite as neatly for my class as it is for current 0Ls, thanks largely to LST packaging it for us and people pushing for more transparency. That said, the information was largely out there when I went through the process. It's gotten more and more out in the open with every passing year, and thank goodness for that.

@crash, it is always nice to hear from people with boots on the ground who can give some first-hand insight into their experiences. That said, I have to respectfully disagree that the decision to TJSL "depends" on much of anything. For almost every prospective applicant, the answer to "Should I go to TJSL?" is "NO!" It's nice that TJSL has a good ADR team and their professors are nice and they have a new building. But at the end of the day, it has one of the worst reputations in the country, their long-term, permanent, J.D.-required jobs score on LST is 25%, and they have one of (if not the highest) average indebtedness per student while placing less than 1% of students into firms of 100+. How on earth do they expect people to pay those debts back? And depending on who you talk to, the school may cease to exist in a few years.

So to anyone else reading, the school is an utter scam and you should not attend. I am sure it has many nice aspects to it and the students are probably good, competent people. But it's a terrible investment, and I would not advise anyone go there even with a full-ride, absent the most compelling of circumstances (like your dad and uncle run a law firm and they're going to hire you, etc.) You may be one of those rare exceptions to the rule (I don't know your circumstances), but the school is almost universally a bad decision.

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star fox
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law?

Postby star fox » Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:52 pm

There's always success stories like the current 2L seems on the track to becoming. So many "lost graduates" though.

beenessa
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Re: Thomas Jefferson School of Law? (to: Baseball_2013 )

Postby beenessa » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:01 pm

Hello there - I just wanted to let you know that I currently work at a small privately owned law firm in Sacramento and one of our attorneys graduated from TJSL in 2009! He loved the school (and he was at the old campus!) I also wanted to let you know that my person tax attorney also went to TJSL and he has his own practice here in Sacramento. I went to visit the school earlier this month and was blown away - not only by the campus and location, but by the faculty and the professors! I sat in for a student and a faculty panel and I am really excited to start there this upcoming fall! Have you decided on whether you are attending or not?




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