Outcomes at UVa at Sticker

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whereskyle
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Outcomes at UVa at Sticker

Postby whereskyle » Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:50 am

Anyone who can share her or his personal experience? Top of the class? Median? Lower half? Thanks, all!

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cahwc12
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Re: Outcomes at UVa at Sticker

Postby cahwc12 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:36 am

BruceWayne is a 3L at UVA who I think paid sticker and is generally regarded as a very knowledgeable poster here, so you might consider sending him a message if he doesn't see this thread.

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danitt
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Re: Outcomes at UVa at Sticker

Postby danitt » Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:58 pm

cahwc12 wrote:BruceWayne is a 3L at UVA who I think paid sticker and is generally regarded as a very knowledgeable poster here, so you might consider sending him a message if he doesn't see this thread.

I can already picture what he will say.

antiochus3
Posts: 16
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Re: Outcomes at UVa at Sticker

Postby antiochus3 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:20 pm

I'm a 2L paying sticker at UVA (who does have a biglaw SA position). Given the bimodal distribution of law salaries, you essentially have two possible outcomes going to UVA at sticker. One, you fail to get biglaw or an LRAP-qualifying job, and your financial future is essentially destroyed. You will be forced to rely on IBR and probably be unable to qualify for credit (mortgage, car loan, etc.). If you are fortunate enough to get biglaw, then you face 3,000 per month in loan payments for the next ten years. Given the turnover rate in biglaw, you should probably try to pay your loans down faster than that, which puts you in the position of working 60-70 hours per week only to throw half your net income at loans. I think there are a couple threads on here that explore the financial implications of paying down sticker debt in biglaw in greater detail.

Of course in the long run someone who starts out in biglaw may have quite a desirable career, but I have to say that the path that UVA sets out for you at sticker is pretty daunting.

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Justin Genious
Posts: 271
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Re: Outcomes at UVa at Sticker

Postby Justin Genious » Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:02 am

antiochus3 wrote:I'm a 2L paying sticker at UVA (who does have a biglaw SA position). Given the bimodal distribution of law salaries, you essentially have two possible outcomes going to UVA at sticker. One, you fail to get biglaw or an LRAP-qualifying job, and your financial future is essentially destroyed. You will be forced to rely on IBR and probably be unable to qualify for credit (mortgage, car loan, etc.). If you are fortunate enough to get biglaw, then you face 3,000 per month in loan payments for the next ten years. Given the turnover rate in biglaw, you should probably try to pay your loans down faster than that, which puts you in the position of working 60-70 hours per week only to throw half your net income at loans. I think there are a couple threads on here that explore the financial implications of paying down sticker debt in biglaw in greater detail.

Of course in the long run someone who starts out in biglaw may have quite a desirable career, but I have to say that the path that UVA sets out for you at sticker is pretty daunting.

Nobody is going to be paying $3,000 in loans a month as a first-year associate. Having said that, lets use your "half of income to loans" scenario to determine the average take-home pay a biglaw associate.

Single individual (2 allowances, 0 dependents), NYC V100 pay for biglaw associate: (net pay/2)
1st year:
Annual: $48k, Bi-weekly: $1845
2nd year:
Annual: $51k, Bi-weekly: $1960
3rd year:
Annual: $55k, Bi-weekly: $2135
4th year:
Annual: $61k, Bi-weekly: $2340
5th year:
Annual: $66k, Bi-weekly: $2525

Total amount paid to loans by year 5: $281,000

Consider my scenario:
I am currently working 60 hours a week and getting paid 40k and I am financially content. I am able to save about a third of each of my paychecks and have enough left for rent, food, fun, etc. Granted, I do have to budget, but it's not as if I'm barely making it paycheck to paycheck. COL would increase ~52% from my current location to Queens/Brooklyn, which would put me at needing $41k to maintain my current lifestyle.

Leaving that extra 7k from first-year salary as some nice cushion room, attending at sticker and getting biglaw - which is obviously not guaranteed but is statistically the most likely outcome at a t14 - would not be a terrible decision. Anywho, I'm not a UVA student nor am I answering any of your questions but take it for what it's worth. If it's your only offer and you don't want to retake/wait another year than take the opportunity if its worth it to you.
Last edited by Justin Genious on Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

hunter.d
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 10:46 pm

Re: Outcomes at UVa at Sticker

Postby hunter.d » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:27 am

Justin Genious wrote:
antiochus3 wrote:I'm a 2L paying sticker at UVA (who does have a biglaw SA position). Given the bimodal distribution of law salaries, you essentially have two possible outcomes going to UVA at sticker. One, you fail to get biglaw or an LRAP-qualifying job, and your financial future is essentially destroyed. You will be forced to rely on IBR and probably be unable to qualify for credit (mortgage, car loan, etc.). If you are fortunate enough to get biglaw, then you face 3,000 per month in loan payments for the next ten years. Given the turnover rate in biglaw, you should probably try to pay your loans down faster than that, which puts you in the position of working 60-70 hours per week only to throw half your net income at loans. I think there are a couple threads on here that explore the financial implications of paying down sticker debt in biglaw in greater detail.

Of course in the long run someone who starts out in biglaw may have quite a desirable career, but I have to say that the path that UVA sets out for you at sticker is pretty daunting.

Nobody is going to be paying $3,000 in loans a month as a first-year associate. Having said that, lets use your "half of income to loans" scenario to determine the average take-home pay a biglaw associate.

This forum must be shut down. Somebody rational has intruded on it.

Single individual (2 allowances, 0 dependents), NYC V100 pay for biglaw associate: [net pay - (1/2 net pay/2)]
1st year:
Annual: $48k, Bi-weekly: $1845
2nd year:
Annual: $51k, Bi-weekly: $1960
3rd year:
Annual: $55k, Bi-weekly: $2135
4th year:
Annual: $61k, Bi-weekly: $2340
5th year:
Annual: $66k, Bi-weekly: $2525

Total amount paid to loans by year 5: $281,000

Consider my scenario:
I am currently working 60 hours a week and getting paid 40k and I am financially content. I am able to save about a third of each of my paychecks and have enough left for rent, food, fun, etc. Granted, I do have to budget, but it's not as if I'm barely making it paycheck to paycheck. COL would increase ~52% from my current location to Queens/Brooklyn, which would put me at needing $41k to maintain my current lifestyle.

Leaving that extra 7k from first-year salary as some nice cushion room, attending at sticker and getting biglaw - which is obviously not guaranteed but is statistically the most likely outcome at a t14 - would not be a terrible decision. Anywho, I'm not a UVA student nor am I answering any of your questions but take it for what it's worth. If it's your only offer and you don't want to retake/wait another year than take the opportunity if its worth it to you.


This forum needs to be shut down. Somebody rational has intruded on it.

antiochus3
Posts: 16
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2010 8:57 pm

Re: Outcomes at UVa at Sticker

Postby antiochus3 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:10 am

hunter.d wrote:
Justin Genious wrote:
antiochus3 wrote:I'm a 2L paying sticker at UVA (who does have a biglaw SA position). Given the bimodal distribution of law salaries, you essentially have two possible outcomes going to UVA at sticker. One, you fail to get biglaw or an LRAP-qualifying job, and your financial future is essentially destroyed. You will be forced to rely on IBR and probably be unable to qualify for credit (mortgage, car loan, etc.). If you are fortunate enough to get biglaw, then you face 3,000 per month in loan payments for the next ten years. Given the turnover rate in biglaw, you should probably try to pay your loans down faster than that, which puts you in the position of working 60-70 hours per week only to throw half your net income at loans. I think there are a couple threads on here that explore the financial implications of paying down sticker debt in biglaw in greater detail.

Of course in the long run someone who starts out in biglaw may have quite a desirable career, but I have to say that the path that UVA sets out for you at sticker is pretty daunting.

Nobody is going to be paying $3,000 in loans a month as a first-year associate. Having said that, lets use your "half of income to loans" scenario to determine the average take-home pay a biglaw associate.

This forum must be shut down. Somebody rational has intruded on it.

Single individual (2 allowances, 0 dependents), NYC V100 pay for biglaw associate: [net pay - (1/2 net pay/2)]
1st year:
Annual: $48k, Bi-weekly: $1845
2nd year:
Annual: $51k, Bi-weekly: $1960
3rd year:
Annual: $55k, Bi-weekly: $2135
4th year:
Annual: $61k, Bi-weekly: $2340
5th year:
Annual: $66k, Bi-weekly: $2525

Total amount paid to loans by year 5: $281,000

Consider my scenario:
I am currently working 60 hours a week and getting paid 40k and I am financially content. I am able to save about a third of each of my paychecks and have enough left for rent, food, fun, etc. Granted, I do have to budget, but it's not as if I'm barely making it paycheck to paycheck. COL would increase ~52% from my current location to Queens/Brooklyn, which would put me at needing $41k to maintain my current lifestyle.

Leaving that extra 7k from first-year salary as some nice cushion room, attending at sticker and getting biglaw - which is obviously not guaranteed but is statistically the most likely outcome at a t14 - would not be a terrible decision. Anywho, I'm not a UVA student nor am I answering any of your questions but take it for what it's worth. If it's your only offer and you don't want to retake/wait another year than take the opportunity if its worth it to you.


This forum needs to be shut down. Somebody rational has intruded on it.


I never said that it wasn't viable to live on half of a post-tax biglaw salary.

3,000 per month is coming from the Gtown financial planning calculator. If you borrow 71,800 for the first year and the COA increases at 3.5% per year, you will owe 266,383 at graduation at the current interest rates. That amounts to 3,178 per month and a total of 381,407 over 10 years. Many people could defray these costs through summer earnings and and spending less than the estimated cost of living (quite doable in Charlottesville), but some people also come in with undergrad loans.

NYstate
Posts: 1566
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:44 am

Re: Outcomes at UVa at Sticker

Postby NYstate » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:15 am

hunter.d wrote:
Justin Genious wrote:
antiochus3 wrote:I'm a 2L paying sticker at UVA (who does have a biglaw SA position). Given the bimodal distribution of law salaries, you essentially have two possible outcomes going to UVA at sticker. One, you fail to get biglaw or an LRAP-qualifying job, and your financial future is essentially destroyed. You will be forced to rely on IBR and probably be unable to qualify for credit (mortgage, car loan, etc.). If you are fortunate enough to get biglaw, then you face 3,000 per month in loan payments for the next ten years. Given the turnover rate in biglaw, you should probably try to pay your loans down faster than that, which puts you in the position of working 60-70 hours per week only to throw half your net income at loans. I think there are a couple threads on here that explore the financial implications of paying down sticker debt in biglaw in greater detail.

Of course in the long run someone who starts out in biglaw may have quite a desirable career, but I have to say that the path that UVA sets out for you at sticker is pretty daunting.

Nobody is going to be paying $3,000 in loans a month as a first-year associate. Having said that, lets use your "half of income to loans" scenario to determine the average take-home pay a biglaw associate.

This forum must be shut down. Somebody rational has intruded on it.

Single individual (2 allowances, 0 dependents), NYC V100 pay for biglaw associate: [net pay - (1/2 net pay/2)]
1st year:
Annual: $48k, Bi-weekly: $1845
2nd year:
Annual: $51k, Bi-weekly: $1960
3rd year:
Annual: $55k, Bi-weekly: $2135
4th year:
Annual: $61k, Bi-weekly: $2340
5th year:
Annual: $66k, Bi-weekly: $2525

Total amount paid to loans by year 5: $281,000

Consider my scenario:
I am currently working 60 hours a week and getting paid 40k and I am financially content. I am able to save about a third of each of my paychecks and have enough left for rent, food, fun, etc. Granted, I do have to budget, but it's not as if I'm barely making it paycheck to paycheck. COL would increase ~52% from my current location to Queens/Brooklyn, which would put me at needing $41k to maintain my current lifestyle.

Leaving that extra 7k from first-year salary as some nice cushion room, attending at sticker and getting biglaw - which is obviously not guaranteed but is statistically the most likely outcome at a t14 - would not be a terrible decision. Anywho, I'm not a UVA student nor am I answering any of your questions but take it for what it's worth. If it's your only offer and you don't want to retake/wait another year than take the opportunity if its worth it to you.


This forum needs to be shut down. Somebody rational has intruded on it.
m
I find it interesting that the person who has taken on the debt and gone through OCI says it is a bad idea while a person who hasn't been to law school yet much less OCI uses stats to explain why that opinion is incorrect.

People make this calculation all the time and some decide to go; some decide not to go. I think it comes down to a combination of not understanding law school and the mandatory curve and an individual level of debt tolerance. I'm extremely debt averse. Other people seem to think repaying 6 figures of debt plus interest is not a problem.

I don't think anyone should pay sticker at Virginia. The large percentage of students on school fellowships concerns me. Putting yourself in a position where you have to get biglaw just to pay your loans seems like a bad move to me.

I also agree with the assessment of New York biglaw. It is an uncertain career path and a demanding job. Biglaw is going through structural changes and hiring for this summer is down from last year. Most firms don't expect to increase hiring over the next few years.

Before you take out sticker debt do as much research as you can into biglaw jobs from Virginia. Talk to recent grads about their life. Talj to them abiut OCI and bidding properly. Figure out what your backup plan is if law doesn't work out for you. You know you can't count on getting a biglaw job or PI job. Will you be fine with IBR? Do you have other career options? ( note: other people in this forum who are on IBR have said as long as you make payments on time it won't harm your credit rating. I have no actual experience with IBR.)

And use the Georgetown calculator so you know what your loan payment will be. Over $3,000 a month? Can you handle that? Up to you.

whereskyle
Posts: 713
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:37 am

Re: Outcomes at UVa at Sticker

Postby whereskyle » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:30 am

Justin Genious wrote:
antiochus3 wrote:I'm a 2L paying sticker at UVA (who does have a biglaw SA position). Given the bimodal distribution of law salaries, you essentially have two possible outcomes going to UVA at sticker. One, you fail to get biglaw or an LRAP-qualifying job, and your financial future is essentially destroyed. You will be forced to rely on IBR and probably be unable to qualify for credit (mortgage, car loan, etc.). If you are fortunate enough to get biglaw, then you face 3,000 per month in loan payments for the next ten years. Given the turnover rate in biglaw, you should probably try to pay your loans down faster than that, which puts you in the position of working 60-70 hours per week only to throw half your net income at loans. I think there are a couple threads on here that explore the financial implications of paying down sticker debt in biglaw in greater detail.

Of course in the long run someone who starts out in biglaw may have quite a desirable career, but I have to say that the path that UVA sets out for you at sticker is pretty daunting.

Nobody is going to be paying $3,000 in loans a month as a first-year associate. Having said that, lets use your "half of income to loans" scenario to determine the average take-home pay a biglaw associate.

Single individual (2 allowances, 0 dependents), NYC V100 pay for biglaw associate: [net pay - (1/2 net pay/2)]
1st year:
Annual: $48k, Bi-weekly: $1845
2nd year:
Annual: $51k, Bi-weekly: $1960
3rd year:
Annual: $55k, Bi-weekly: $2135
4th year:
Annual: $61k, Bi-weekly: $2340
5th year:
Annual: $66k, Bi-weekly: $2525

Total amount paid to loans by year 5: $281,000

Consider my scenario:
I am currently working 60 hours a week and getting paid 40k and I am financially content. I am able to save about a third of each of my paychecks and have enough left for rent, food, fun, etc. Granted, I do have to budget, but it's not as if I'm barely making it paycheck to paycheck. COL would increase ~52% from my current location to Queens/Brooklyn, which would put me at needing $41k to maintain my current lifestyle.

Leaving that extra 7k from first-year salary as some nice cushion room, attending at sticker and getting biglaw - which is obviously not guaranteed but is statistically the most likely outcome at a t14 - would not be a terrible decision. Anywho, I'm not a UVA student nor am I answering any of your questions but take it for what it's worth. If it's your only offer and you don't want to retake/wait another year than take the opportunity if its worth it to you.


Thanks a mill for spelling out the above for me. I am confident that I can land a firm job by means of uva. Truth be told, however, I have one scenario that I know I want to play out, and it is not going straight to a firm out of 3L to do discovery every day late into the night for five years to pay down debt. I want to clerk for increasingly prestigious judges for two years or more. Then, I want to do appellate litigation. I'm a liberal arts intellectual, who likes reading greek and latin. I applied to law school, because I enjoy reading and applying the law (1yr of paralegal experience doing so). I'm not amped about dealing with pissed off clients. I want to be the guy upstairs, who makes the judges' erroneous decisions go away with my close reading and acerbic writing and arguing skills.

Firstly, is appellate litigation reserved only for those, who pay their dues for years at a firm, or is it something into which grads are molded via clerkships and their law schools?

Secondly, do I just need to hold out for another year/two to apply early or boost my LSAT? I'll be 24 yo next month. I don't want to diss uva. I threw them an app, because of my perception of their clerkship placement compared to penn, berkeley, columbia, and nyu. I know that uva alumni hold prestigious judgeships, two of whom my boss will be arguing before on Wednesday. Every law school, besides Yale, sends more than twice the number of grads into firms than into clerkships, so I don't think I should condemn uva for not sending more grads into clerkships. Do I need to hold out for chicago and up, or do you see me potentially walking this route at uva, if I keep my ducks in a row? I'm a goofy, gregarious guy, who likes to converse. I feel that the worst I can do is be too friendly, so I'm not worried about landing a job. I may, however, be too picky to borrow $200,000.00 in return for what I consider to be a soul-sucking position as a discovery attorney. As uva has posted no information regarding the number of grads who are doing appellate litigation or are on track to do so, I feel I need to know more, before I borrow the money.

Hey, thanks you all. These are serious issues to me, and I'm glad you ladies and gents are here.

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Aberzombie1892
Posts: 1907
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Re: Outcomes at UVa at Sticker

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:41 am

Lol.

whereskyle
Posts: 713
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:37 am

Re: Outcomes at UVa at Sticker

Postby whereskyle » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:42 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Lol.



I figured that's what sincerity would get me.

whereskyle
Posts: 713
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2012 5:37 am

Re: Outcomes at UVa at Sticker

Postby whereskyle » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:42 am

whereskyle wrote:
Justin Genious wrote:
antiochus3 wrote:I'm a 2L paying sticker at UVA (who does have a biglaw SA position). Given the bimodal distribution of law salaries, you essentially have two possible outcomes going to UVA at sticker. One, you fail to get biglaw or an LRAP-qualifying job, and your financial future is essentially destroyed. You will be forced to rely on IBR and probably be unable to qualify for credit (mortgage, car loan, etc.). If you are fortunate enough to get biglaw, then you face 3,000 per month in loan payments for the next ten years. Given the turnover rate in biglaw, you should probably try to pay your loans down faster than that, which puts you in the position of working 60-70 hours per week only to throw half your net income at loans. I think there are a couple threads on here that explore the financial implications of paying down sticker debt in biglaw in greater detail.

Of course in the long run someone who starts out in biglaw may have quite a desirable career, but I have to say that the path that UVA sets out for you at sticker is pretty daunting.

Nobody is going to be paying $3,000 in loans a month as a first-year associate. Having said that, lets use your "half of income to loans" scenario to determine the average take-home pay a biglaw associate.

Single individual (2 allowances, 0 dependents), NYC V100 pay for biglaw associate: [net pay - (1/2 net pay/2)]
1st year:
Annual: $48k, Bi-weekly: $1845
2nd year:
Annual: $51k, Bi-weekly: $1960
3rd year:
Annual: $55k, Bi-weekly: $2135
4th year:
Annual: $61k, Bi-weekly: $2340
5th year:
Annual: $66k, Bi-weekly: $2525

Total amount paid to loans by year 5: $281,000

Consider my scenario:
I am currently working 60 hours a week and getting paid 40k and I am financially content. I am able to save about a third of each of my paychecks and have enough left for rent, food, fun, etc. Granted, I do have to budget, but it's not as if I'm barely making it paycheck to paycheck. COL would increase ~52% from my current location to Queens/Brooklyn, which would put me at needing $41k to maintain my current lifestyle.

Leaving that extra 7k from first-year salary as some nice cushion room, attending at sticker and getting biglaw - which is obviously not guaranteed but is statistically the most likely outcome at a t14 - would not be a terrible decision. Anywho, I'm not a UVA student nor am I answering any of your questions but take it for what it's worth. If it's your only offer and you don't want to retake/wait another year than take the opportunity if its worth it to you.


Thanks a mill for spelling out the above for me. I am confident that I can land a firm job by means of uva. Truth be told, however, I have one scenario that I know I want to play out, and it is not going straight to a firm out of 3L to do discovery every day late into the night for five years to pay down debt. I want to clerk for increasingly prestigious judges for two years or more. Then, I want to do appellate litigation. I'm a liberal arts intellectual, who likes reading greek and latin. I applied to law school, because I enjoy reading and applying the law (1yr of paralegal experience doing so). I'm not amped about dealing with pissed off clients. I want to be the guy upstairs, who makes the judges' erroneous decisions go away with my close reading and acerbic writing and arguing skills.

Firstly, is appellate litigation reserved only for those, who pay their dues for years at a firm, or is it something into which grads are molded via clerkships and their law schools?

Secondly, do I just need to hold out for another year/two to apply early or boost my LSAT? I'll be 24 yo next month. I don't want to diss uva. I threw them an app, because of my perception of their clerkship placement compared to penn, berkeley, columbia, and nyu. I know that uva alumni hold prestigious judgeships, two of whom my boss will be arguing before on Wednesday. Every law school, besides Yale, sends more than twice the number of grads into firms than into clerkships, so I don't think I should condemn uva for not sending more grads into clerkships. Do I need to hold out for chicago and up, or do you see me potentially walking this route at uva, if I keep my ducks in a row? I'm a goofy, gregarious guy, who likes to converse. I feel that the worst I can do is be too friendly, so I'm not worried about landing a job. I may, however, be too picky to borrow $200,000.00 in return for what I consider to be a soul-sucking position as a discovery attorney. As uva has posted no information regarding the number of grads who are doing appellate litigation or are on track to do so, I feel I need to know more, before I borrow the money.

Hey, thanks you all. These are serious issues to me, and I'm glad you ladies and gents are here.

rad lulz
Posts: 9844
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: Outcomes at UVa at Sticker

Postby rad lulz » Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:50 am

m
whereskyle wrote:Thanks a mill for spelling out the above for me. I am confident that I can land a firm job by means of uva. Truth be told, however, I have one scenario that I know I want to play out, and it is not going straight to a firm out of 3L to do discovery every day late into the night for five years to pay down debt. I want to clerk for increasingly prestigious judges for two years or more. Then, I want to do appellate litigation. I'm a liberal arts intellectual, who likes reading greek and latin. I applied to law school, because I enjoy reading and applying the law (1yr of paralegal experience doing so). I'm not amped about dealing with pissed off clients. I want to be the guy upstairs, who makes the judges' erroneous decisions go away with my close reading and acerbic writing and arguing skills.

Firstly, is appellate litigation reserved only for those, who pay their dues for years at a firm, or is it something into which grads are molded via clerkships and their law schools?

Secondly, do I just need to hold out for another year/two to apply early or boost my LSAT? I'll be 24 yo next month. I don't want to diss uva. I threw them an app, because of my perception of their clerkship placement compared to penn, berkeley, columbia, and nyu. I know that uva alumni hold prestigious judgeships, two of whom my boss will be arguing before on Wednesday. Every law school, besides Yale, sends more than twice the number of grads into firms than into clerkships, so I don't think I should condemn uva for not sending more grads into clerkships. Do I need to hold out for chicago and up, or do you see me potentially walking this route at uva, if I keep my ducks in a row? I'm a goofy, gregarious guy, who likes to converse. I feel that the worst I can do is be too friendly, so I'm not worried about landing a job. I may, however, be too picky to borrow $200,000.00 in return for what I consider to be a soul-sucking position as a discovery attorney. As uva has posted no information regarding the number of grads who are doing appellate litigation or are on track to do so, I feel I need to know more, before I borrow the money.

Hey, thanks you all. These are serious issues to me, and I'm glad you ladies and gents are here.


1) Outside of HYS, no school gives a good shot at an Article III clerkship (think in the area of 10%-13%), so no, you will not be able to get a prestigious clerkship (which you will want for appellate litigation at a firm) just by keeping your ducks in a row

2) If you don't want to deal with clients, you should seriously reconsider being a lawyer. Law is all about dealing with clients, and the times when clients would just pay for whatever the hell their lawyers wanted to do are over (see the Georgetown report). Here's a heads up. Clients grudgingly pay for litigators, and they don't like to pay for appeals.

3) You could try to do appeals for the government, but those jobs are basically a pipe dream in this economy.

4) You've got serious special snowflake syndrome if you aren't worried about being one of only 77.7% who get good jobs. Hell, you've got a better chance at some cruddy school funded job (17%) than an AIII clerkship.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Outcomes at UVa at Sticker

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:18 am

whereskyle wrote:Secondly, do I just need to hold out for another year/two to apply early or boost my LSAT? I'll be 24 yo next month.

Normally I'd say retake without a second thought, but if you already have a 170 and would be paying sticker at UVA I assume your GPA is pretty low. Is that correct? If so you aren't going to get into HYS even with a 180 and would probably have to pay close to sticker at any school that provides some chance for your desired career path.

whereskyle
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Re: Outcomes at UVa at Sticker

Postby whereskyle » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:26 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:
whereskyle wrote:Secondly, do I just need to hold out for another year/two to apply early or boost my LSAT? I'll be 24 yo next month.

Normally I'd say retake without a second thought, but if you already have a 170 and would be paying sticker at UVA I assume your GPA is pretty low. Is that correct? If so you aren't going to get into HYS even with a 180 and would probably have to pay close to sticker at any school that provides some chance for your desired career path.


Thanks for the advice.
Last edited by whereskyle on Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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JamesDean1955
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Re: Outcomes at UVa at Sticker

Postby JamesDean1955 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:38 am


whereskyle
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Re: Outcomes at UVa at Sticker

Postby whereskyle » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:14 am

JamesDean1955 wrote:http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2257715/Study-shows-college-students-think-theyre-special--read-write-barely-study.html


Thanks, I needed that.

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Elston Gunn
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Re: Outcomes at UVa at Sticker

Postby Elston Gunn » Mon Feb 25, 2013 11:21 am

An undergrad that doesn't give you grades is screwing its students. I went to the smallest and in some ways hippiest of all possible undergrads, but they still recorded grades because they knew we would need them for grad school.

Also the career path you describe above is fairly difficult to achieve from Yale. You've got to be a superstar at UVA to do that stuff.

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Justin Genious
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Re: Outcomes at UVa at Sticker

Postby Justin Genious » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:05 pm

NYstate wrote:
hunter.d wrote:
Justin Genious wrote:
antiochus3 wrote:I'm a 2L paying sticker at UVA (who does have a biglaw SA position). Given the bimodal distribution of law salaries, you essentially have two possible outcomes going to UVA at sticker. One, you fail to get biglaw or an LRAP-qualifying job, and your financial future is essentially destroyed. You will be forced to rely on IBR and probably be unable to qualify for credit (mortgage, car loan, etc.). If you are fortunate enough to get biglaw, then you face 3,000 per month in loan payments for the next ten years. Given the turnover rate in biglaw, you should probably try to pay your loans down faster than that, which puts you in the position of working 60-70 hours per week only to throw half your net income at loans. I think there are a couple threads on here that explore the financial implications of paying down sticker debt in biglaw in greater detail.

Of course in the long run someone who starts out in biglaw may have quite a desirable career, but I have to say that the path that UVA sets out for you at sticker is pretty daunting.

Nobody is going to be paying $3,000 in loans a month as a first-year associate. Having said that, lets use your "half of income to loans" scenario to determine the average take-home pay a biglaw associate.

This forum must be shut down. Somebody rational has intruded on it.

Single individual (2 allowances, 0 dependents), NYC V100 pay for biglaw associate: [net pay - (1/2 net pay/2)]
1st year:
Annual: $48k, Bi-weekly: $1845
2nd year:
Annual: $51k, Bi-weekly: $1960
3rd year:
Annual: $55k, Bi-weekly: $2135
4th year:
Annual: $61k, Bi-weekly: $2340
5th year:
Annual: $66k, Bi-weekly: $2525

Total amount paid to loans by year 5: $281,000

Consider my scenario:
I am currently working 60 hours a week and getting paid 40k and I am financially content. I am able to save about a third of each of my paychecks and have enough left for rent, food, fun, etc. Granted, I do have to budget, but it's not as if I'm barely making it paycheck to paycheck. COL would increase ~52% from my current location to Queens/Brooklyn, which would put me at needing $41k to maintain my current lifestyle.

Leaving that extra 7k from first-year salary as some nice cushion room, attending at sticker and getting biglaw - which is obviously not guaranteed but is statistically the most likely outcome at a t14 - would not be a terrible decision. Anywho, I'm not a UVA student nor am I answering any of your questions but take it for what it's worth. If it's your only offer and you don't want to retake/wait another year than take the opportunity if its worth it to you.


This forum needs to be shut down. Somebody rational has intruded on it.

I find it interesting that the person who has taken on the debt and gone through OCI says it is a bad idea while a person who hasn't been to law school yet much less OCI uses stats to explain why that opinion is incorrect.

So anecdotal evidence > sound stats? I wasn't discussing employment prospects and specifically mentioned it in my post. I was, however, giving the OP the most likely outcome if he does attend the school.

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Re: Outcomes at UVa at Sticker

Postby timbs4339 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:29 pm

whereskyle wrote:Thanks a mill for spelling out the above for me. I am confident that I can land a firm job by means of uva. Truth be told, however, I have one scenario that I know I want to play out, and it is not going straight to a firm out of 3L to do discovery every day late into the night for five years to pay down debt. I want to clerk for increasingly prestigious judges for two years or more. Then, I want to do appellate litigation. I'm a liberal arts intellectual, who likes reading greek and latin. I applied to law school, because I enjoy reading and applying the law (1yr of paralegal experience doing so). I'm not amped about dealing with pissed off clients. I want to be the guy upstairs, who makes the judges' erroneous decisions go away with my close reading and acerbic writing and arguing skills.

Firstly, is appellate litigation reserved only for those, who pay their dues for years at a firm, or is it something into which grads are molded via clerkships and their law schools?

Secondly, do I just need to hold out for another year/two to apply early or boost my LSAT? I'll be 24 yo next month. I don't want to diss uva. I threw them an app, because of my perception of their clerkship placement compared to penn, berkeley, columbia, and nyu. I know that uva alumni hold prestigious judgeships, two of whom my boss will be arguing before on Wednesday. Every law school, besides Yale, sends more than twice the number of grads into firms than into clerkships, so I don't think I should condemn uva for not sending more grads into clerkships. Do I need to hold out for chicago and up, or do you see me potentially walking this route at uva, if I keep my ducks in a row? I'm a goofy, gregarious guy, who likes to converse. I feel that the worst I can do is be too friendly, so I'm not worried about landing a job. I may, however, be too picky to borrow $200,000.00 in return for what I consider to be a soul-sucking position as a discovery attorney. As uva has posted no information regarding the number of grads who are doing appellate litigation or are on track to do so, I feel I need to know more, before I borrow the money.

Hey, thanks you all. These are serious issues to me, and I'm glad you ladies and gents are here.


Unfortunately, this does not seem like a realistic plan. Appellate litigation is an extremely small practice area. The people I know who were able to do it were top 10% at CLS and could have clerked for a federal court of appeals. It's certainly possible from UVA, but if you'd be unhappy doing anything else I'd recommend you reconsider law school.

Most of the money is made well before trial in the discovery stage and as junior nobody is going to need you to do anything else. You just have to put in your dues- it's the way of the world. You might be working on a case that is eventually appealed, but the chances of working in the "appellate department" of a biglaw firm (or getting into a prestigious appellate boutique) are slim.

Now criminal appeals are a different story- they are very often in intermediate appellate court (I see a lot of appellate litigation and the only lawyers under 35 who are ever before the court are DAs or PDs). But something tells me you don't want to be a junior DA or public defender.

whereskyle
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Re: Outcomes at UVa at Sticker

Postby whereskyle » Mon Feb 25, 2013 1:54 pm

Thanks a lot for these quality responses, you all. They are helping me to develop more realistic expectations. Also, I may be right to see that even if I hold out for hys, the logistics of specializing in appeals require more than a school name. They require reputation building in the trenches.

KidStuddi
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Re: Outcomes at UVa at Sticker

Postby KidStuddi » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:34 am

whereskyle wrote:Thanks a lot for these quality responses, you all. They are helping me to develop more realistic expectations. Also, I may be right to see that even if I hold out for hys, the logistics of specializing in appeals require more than a school name. They require reputation building in the trenches.


You may need to adjust your expectations even further. As others have said, Article III Clerkships are not easy to obtain anywhere outside of Y/S -- I think even Harvard is simply too big of a school for it to be a "good shot".

Making a career out of appellate litigation is even more difficult than obtaining a CoA clerkship. There are only a few BigLaw firm offices that have big enough / concentrated enough appellate practices for there to be a steady diet of appellate work for an associate to cut his or her teeth on, meaning it's very difficult to be a BigLaw lifer and grow to be an appellate partner. As I understand it, the majority of appellate work is brought in by rainmaking lateral partners who are often former solicitor generals or other super senior government litigators who have gone private / former SCOTUS clerks, or, many times, both.

Trying to plot a career path that will let you follow in their steps is as ambitious as it gets.

uvabro
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Re: Outcomes at UVa at Sticker

Postby uvabro » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:35 pm

there's no link between the 2 class rank wise. you can argue paying sticker keeps u from getting overconfident. sticker creates more stress because even if you get good grades, if you don't get a job at oci you find yourself pondering the pros and cons of starting a massive cocaine cartel to pay back your debt.

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quiver
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Re: Outcomes at UVa at Sticker

Postby quiver » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:59 pm

Yeah you are literally aiming for one of the most prestigious career paths in law. I agree with what others have said: if you'd only be happy clerking then doing appellate law, strongly reconsider law school.

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elterrible78
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Re: Outcomes at UVa at Sticker

Postby elterrible78 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:35 am

uvabro wrote:there's no link between the 2 class rank wise. you can argue paying sticker keeps u from getting overconfident. sticker creates more stress because even if you get good grades, if you don't get a job at oci you find yourself pondering the pros and cons of starting a massive cocaine cartel to pay back your debt.


This is not something you can really just decide to start.




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