NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

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guano
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby guano » Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:35 am

Dmini7 wrote:
Crowing wrote:Also look at UCLA/USC and BC/BU. Maybe this will stop the trolling for any of these individual schools for a while. But it probably won't.


I do not think the trolling has stopped, and I am fairly certain I just fed a troll :(. I am not a smart man. :oops:

edit: I also wouldn't say dingbat killing it, the difference was still pretty negligible in my opinion. If i recall correctly, it has consistently been within 3% of eachother.

UCLA and USC are peer schools. People have newer arguing for a while that USC is actually better, because USC has had a slight edge in biglaw + AIII, but the difference has been small and even then that is a limited comparison that doesn't consider a myriad if other factors.

Law students love to argue, but, these are peer schools through and through

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megagnarley
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby megagnarley » Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:01 am

Crowing wrote:
Lasers wrote:
quakeroats wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:So what exactly about Michigan is making it go downhill? Location?


Big class, terrible location, what comes to mind when you hear the word "Michigan", etc.

yep.

they just don't have a viable home market.


IIRC Michigan was doing better before ITE which sorta lends credence to the lacking home market theory. Michigan tends to spread its grads but the theory is that when positions are few and firms have to cut hiring Michigan gets fucked because they're not the primary feeder into those firms. So NYC firms cut positions for Michigan grads in favor of CLS/NYU/Penn/Cornell grads, Chicago firms for UChi/NU, Cal firms for Stanford/Boalt, etc. I have no idea how true this is or not but on paper it makes sense.



Not disagreeing, but then how do you explain Dukes numbers not getting hit.

They aren't the primary feeder for DC, or NY, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt the southern states make up that much of the NLJ250 composition.

They have a smaller class size, but if the primary market theory is true their numbers shouldn't be trending up.

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EvilClinton
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby EvilClinton » Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:22 am

guano wrote:
Dmini7 wrote:
Crowing wrote:Also look at UCLA/USC and BC/BU. Maybe this will stop the trolling for any of these individual schools for a while. But it probably won't.


I do not think the trolling has stopped, and I am fairly certain I just fed a troll :(. I am not a smart man. :oops:

edit: I also wouldn't say dingbat killing it, the difference was still pretty negligible in my opinion. If i recall correctly, it has consistently been within 3% of eachother.

UCLA and USC are peer schools. People have newer arguing for a while that USC is actually better, because USC has had a slight edge in biglaw + AIII, but the difference has been small and even then that is a limited comparison that doesn't consider a myriad if other factors.
Law students love to argue, but, these are peer schools through and through

Also, the best entertainment firms are not part of the NLJ 250 (except for O'Melveny)and people in LA kill for those jobs. I personally know some USC grads and UCLA grads that ended up at high end entertainment boutiques that will never show up in these surveys.

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Crowing
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Crowing » Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:54 am

megagnarley wrote:
Crowing wrote:IIRC Michigan was doing better before ITE which sorta lends credence to the lacking home market theory. Michigan tends to spread its grads but the theory is that when positions are few and firms have to cut hiring Michigan gets fucked because they're not the primary feeder into those firms. So NYC firms cut positions for Michigan grads in favor of CLS/NYU/Penn/Cornell grads, Chicago firms for UChi/NU, Cal firms for Stanford/Boalt, etc. I have no idea how true this is or not but on paper it makes sense.



Not disagreeing, but then how do you explain Dukes numbers not getting hit.

They aren't the primary feeder for DC, or NY, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt the southern states make up that much of the NLJ250 composition.

They have a smaller class size, but if the primary market theory is true their numbers shouldn't be trending up.


That's a good point to raise, and I don't really have a good answer for that. I suspect Duke's small size has helped them significantly. It's also claimed that Michigan's c/o 2011 got screwed because their CSO encouraged everybody to bid heavily on Chicago and then Chicago didn't recover ITE as well as NYC so a lot of people struck out. I suspect Michigan has traditionally targeted Chicago more than say Duke anyway due to its location in the Midwest. But that doesn't explain why the c/o 2012 data still sucks compared to its peers, so I have no idea.

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kwais
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby kwais » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:46 am

You can add 2 percentage points to CLS and NYU just for Paul Weiss.

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stuckinthemiddle
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby stuckinthemiddle » Sat Feb 23, 2013 7:33 am

Nothing new about these results, really. Same trends as the last few years. Duke, Penn, Northwestern & Cornell overperforming; Michigan, UVA & Georgetown underperforming, everyone else performing where they "should."

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banjo
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby banjo » Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:25 am

As has been discussed before, NLJ is pretty misleading due to underreporting by some NYC firms. It's very possible that the ABA data will still show CLS ahead of Penn. That said, I'm going to go work on another LOCI for Penn...

eta: I crunched the NLJ/ABA disparities http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 5&t=204562 but I am an 0L so I have no special understanding of employment data.

ETA: Wait, was this issue fixed by the new methodology?

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iMisto
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby iMisto » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:00 am

If NYC firms are underreporting, can it be safely assumed that CLS/NYU/Cornell ( :lol: ) will have slightly higher numbers than what is shown now?

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guano
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby guano » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:28 am

Crowing wrote:
megagnarley wrote:
Crowing wrote:IIRC Michigan was doing better before ITE which sorta lends credence to the lacking home market theory. Michigan tends to spread its grads but the theory is that when positions are few and firms have to cut hiring Michigan gets fucked because they're not the primary feeder into those firms. So NYC firms cut positions for Michigan grads in favor of CLS/NYU/Penn/Cornell grads, Chicago firms for UChi/NU, Cal firms for Stanford/Boalt, etc. I have no idea how true this is or not but on paper it makes sense.



Not disagreeing, but then how do you explain Dukes numbers not getting hit.

They aren't the primary feeder for DC, or NY, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt the southern states make up that much of the NLJ250 composition.

They have a smaller class size, but if the primary market theory is true their numbers shouldn't be trending up.


That's a good point to raise, and I don't really have a good answer for that. I suspect Duke's small size has helped them significantly. It's also claimed that Michigan's c/o 2011 got screwed because their CSO encouraged everybody to bid heavily on Chicago and then Chicago didn't recover ITE as well as NYC so a lot of people struck out. I suspect Michigan has traditionally targeted Chicago more than say Duke anyway due to its location in the Midwest. But that doesn't explain why the c/o 2012 data still sucks compared to its peers, so I have no idea.

Remember that it's not unusually for a school to have a year where it does a lot better or worse than typical - which is why you should always look at performance over several years

Aroldis105
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Aroldis105 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:30 am

iMisto wrote:If NYC firms are underreporting, can it be safely assumed that CLS/NYU/Cornell ( :lol: ) will have slightly higher numbers than what is shown now?


I think the same could be said for the VA/DC schools that feed into Washington. I obviously can't speak for the specific numbers, but you gotta figure some of the top students are taking good jobs in DC not listed in the NLJ 250. But, it's best to just take the list for what it is and value it as such because we can't account for things like this without guessing.

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skers
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby skers » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:49 am

Aroldis105 wrote:
iMisto wrote:If NYC firms are underreporting, can it be safely assumed that CLS/NYU/Cornell ( :lol: ) will have slightly higher numbers than what is shown now?


I think the same could be said for the VA/DC schools that feed into Washington. I obviously can't speak for the specific numbers, but you gotta figure some of the top students are taking good jobs in DC not listed in the NLJ 250. But, it's best to just take the list for what it is and value it as such because we can't account for things like this without guessing.


The argument applies with my force for CLS/NYU because of the large portions of the class that go to places like Paul Weiss. What you're saying is an argument that can be made for any of the top schools on the list. There are people who choose to go the boutique route, but given ITE and the difficulty in knowing with any real certainty how many people go the boutique route it makes more sense to underestimate the numbers.

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somewhatwayward
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby somewhatwayward » Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:00 am

Crowing wrote:
goldeneye wrote:Ouch, WUSTL got hammered. That class was 300 though. New 1L class is only 200.


It's up 3% from last year, which seems to be a pretty average increase considering the overall improvement between this year and last year.

Also posted this in the WUSTL thread:
It's not actually that bad when you consider that the schools ahead of WUSTL are 1) the T14 2) traditionally the 4 schools right outside the T14 (UCLA/UT/Vandy/USC) 3) schools known for being biglaw feeders (Fordham/BC/BU/GWU) 4) the inaugural graduating class of a tiny school that all attended on full schollys (UCI) and 5) UIUC. Lol UIUC is really the only one that surprises me.


That last quote sounds like some serious rationalization. Perhaps that is a little harsh since they basically placed in line with their peers ND and UIUC. I guess I am reacting to that in the context of the crazy blind love in the WUSTL c/o 2016 admissions thread.

Also, confused by whoever said this list suggests CCP (I mean, yeah, they're the first 3 but NYU is less than .5% below CLS). I'm actually surprised by the fact that NYU tied CLS.

Also surprised to see Rutgers-Camden and Seton Hall on here, especially Seton Hall.

Gearing up for a avalanche of 0L posts saying the poster wants big law and asking about paying 100K+ at the schools on this list placing less than 10% or 20% of their grads in big law.

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20130312
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby 20130312 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:00 am

RU-C 8)

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hume85
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby hume85 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:05 am

InGoodFaith wrote:RU-C 8)

Are you going to stay at RU-C or transfer?

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20130312
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby 20130312 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:08 am

hume85 wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:RU-C 8)

Are you going to stay at RU-C or transfer?

Will let ya know as soon as I know.

Aroldis105
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Aroldis105 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:27 am

TemporarySaint wrote:
Aroldis105 wrote:
iMisto wrote:If NYC firms are underreporting, can it be safely assumed that CLS/NYU/Cornell ( :lol: ) will have slightly higher numbers than what is shown now?


I think the same could be said for the VA/DC schools that feed into Washington. I obviously can't speak for the specific numbers, but you gotta figure some of the top students are taking good jobs in DC not listed in the NLJ 250. But, it's best to just take the list for what it is and value it as such because we can't account for things like this without guessing.


The argument applies with my force for CLS/NYU because of the large portions of the class that go to places like Paul Weiss. What you're saying is an argument that can be made for any of the top schools on the list. There are people who choose to go the boutique route, but given ITE and the difficulty in knowing with any real certainty how many people go the boutique route it makes more sense to underestimate the numbers.


Right, I'm saying that the NLJ is a great tool for gauging great employment opportunities, however, we should show some hesitation in making it the be all end all because there are too many other variables that we don't have access too. That being said, it is still better than the USNWR. I think we're on the same side of the argument here, just different facets of that same argument.

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moonman157
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby moonman157 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:43 am

Glad to see these numbers go up for a change. Makes the Penn WL sting a little more though :(

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skers
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby skers » Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:47 am

Aroldis105 wrote:
TemporarySaint wrote:
Aroldis105 wrote:
I think the same could be said for the VA/DC schools that feed into Washington. I obviously can't speak for the specific numbers, but you gotta figure some of the top students are taking good jobs in DC not listed in the NLJ 250. But, it's best to just take the list for what it is and value it as such because we can't account for things like this without guessing.


The argument applies with my force for CLS/NYU because of the large portions of the class that go to places like Paul Weiss. What you're saying is an argument that can be made for any of the top schools on the list. There are people who choose to go the boutique route, but given ITE and the difficulty in knowing with any real certainty how many people go the boutique route it makes more sense to underestimate the numbers.


Right, I'm saying that the NLJ is a great tool for gauging great employment opportunities, however, we should show some hesitation in making it the be all end all because there are too many other variables that we don't have access too. That being said, it is still better than the USNWR. I think we're on the same side of the argument here, just different facets of that same argument.


Word, but with 200k on the line there's probably more utility in pessimism.

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stillwater
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby stillwater » Sat Feb 23, 2013 11:49 am

somewhatwayward wrote:
Crowing wrote:
goldeneye wrote:Ouch, WUSTL got hammered. That class was 300 though. New 1L class is only 200.


It's up 3% from last year, which seems to be a pretty average increase considering the overall improvement between this year and last year.

Also posted this in the WUSTL thread:
It's not actually that bad when you consider that the schools ahead of WUSTL are 1) the T14 2) traditionally the 4 schools right outside the T14 (UCLA/UT/Vandy/USC) 3) schools known for being biglaw feeders (Fordham/BC/BU/GWU) 4) the inaugural graduating class of a tiny school that all attended on full schollys (UCI) and 5) UIUC. Lol UIUC is really the only one that surprises me.


That last quote sounds like some serious rationalization. Perhaps that is a little harsh since they basically placed in line with their peers ND and UIUC. I guess I am reacting to that in the context of the crazy blind love in the WUSTL c/o 2016 admissions thread.

Also, confused by whoever said this list suggests CCP (I mean, yeah, they're the first 3 but NYU is less than .5% below CLS). I'm actually surprised by the fact that NYU tied CLS.

Also surprised to see Rutgers-Camden and Seton Hall on here, especially Seton Hall.

Gearing up for a avalanche of 0L posts saying the poster wants big law and asking about paying 100K+ at the schools on this list placing less than 10% or 20% of their grads in big law.


Seton Hall seems to creep onto this list every year, in the 40-50 range placing between 5%-10%. I am surprised every year but such it is I guess.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:30 pm

TemporarySaint wrote:Word, but with 200k on the line there's probably more utility in pessimism.

Very well put.

As for the underreporting, the NLJ said that only associates from Paul Weiss and King & Spalding aren't included here, but they admit that 60 of the 250 firms didn't respond. So for 58 of those firms they had to use third party data and who knows how complete that is.

On the issue of boutiques, you can see from prior years that top schools send only a very small portion of grads to firms too small to land on the NLJ 250. I don't think boutique placement should really factor in to a 0L's decision unless we have more data showing that a particularly large part of a class went that route.

AllTheLawz
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby AllTheLawz » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:38 pm

Anyone know why Paul Weiss data isn't included? They hire something like 15-20 people at a few of these schools.

Also this:

Additionally, the NLJ 250 does not include large, prestigious internationally-based law firms with American offices.


Paul Weiss plus this problem means that these numbers may be understated by about 5-10% for a few of the top schools.

zman
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby zman » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:51 pm

AllTheLawz wrote:Anyone know why Paul Weiss data isn't included? They hire something like 15-20 people at a few of these schools.

Also this:

Additionally, the NLJ 250 does not include large, prestigious internationally-based law firms with American offices.


Paul Weiss plus this problem means that these numbers may be understated by about 5-10% for a few of the top schools.


they will be included when schools and law school transparency release their own.

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dsn32
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby dsn32 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:05 pm

Is Penn placing all of these kids in NYC, or are other east coast markets recovering and bolstering these numbers?

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Rahviveh
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Rahviveh » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:08 pm

Going forward, is this the new normal or could we see significantly worse numbers for future classes?

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guano
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby guano » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:09 pm

stillwater wrote:Seton Hall seems to creep onto this list every year, in the 40-50 range placing between 5%-10%. I am surprised every year but such it is I guess.

Seton Hall and Rutgers are usually on the list, near the bottom. In NY they're about on par the Cardozo and Brooklyn. All of those have alumni I bigkaw and a "decent" reputation in the city, Not torn took that there are a number of well-connected NY/NJ kids who can't get into a better school




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