NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

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banjo
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby banjo » Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:38 pm

CLS/NYU clearly beat Penn in the tippy top firms, but it's not a blowout. In the V10 minus Davis Polk it's more like 75-90 grads versus 32. When you adjust for class size, not terrible.

law2015
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby law2015 » Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:51 pm

banjo wrote:CLS/NYU clearly beat Penn in the tippy top firms, but it's not a blowout. In the V10 minus Davis Polk it's more like 75-90 grads versus 32. When you adjust for class size, not terrible.


It is really cool that we have all this new information available. I am hoping that someone will make a list and compare how schools compare for V10, V10-V20 and such. By just glancing at the firms individually I thought NYU/CLS had a significant advantage at top firms over Penn.

kaiser
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby kaiser » Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:38 am

law2015 wrote:
banjo wrote:CLS/NYU clearly beat Penn in the tippy top firms, but it's not a blowout. In the V10 minus Davis Polk it's more like 75-90 grads versus 32. When you adjust for class size, not terrible.


It is really cool that we have all this new information available. I am hoping that someone will make a list and compare how schools compare for V10, V10-V20 and such. By just glancing at the firms individually I thought NYU/CLS had a significant advantage at top firms over Penn.


I figured that this was pretty common knowledge, that Penn may place a very large number into biglaw, but that the few schools above it such as NYU and CLS place more people into the "highest tier" of big firms.

AllTheLawz
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby AllTheLawz » Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:45 am

thelawyler wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
thelawyler wrote:
Did Davis Polk really only hire 6 people that year? If not, I can see why this is incomplete data.

Yeah and it has Cooley with only 7. My guess is there just isn't any way to know exactly how many people the 60 firms who didn't respond to the survey hired, and for the 58 for whom they could find any data they decided incomplete was better than nothing. Would be nice if they'd have admitted that though. At least now with the firm by firm breakdown we can get a better idea for how rampant the underreporting issue is.


If somebody can collect a relative list of all the big firms that are completely under-represented here, we could probably build a pretty accurate picture. Or wait for the ABA data, I suppose.


Also fairly certain Arnold & Porter has more than the 5 listed in the data, Boies has more than 1, Brown Rudnick more than 2, the data doesn't even have an entry for King & Spalding, White & Case probably had more than 12 and who knows what else is off.

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Crowing
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Crowing » Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:11 am

Kirkland: NU 17, UChi 9

Is that typical?

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izy223
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby izy223 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:39 am

law2015 wrote:
banjo wrote:CLS/NYU clearly beat Penn in the tippy top firms, but it's not a blowout. In the V10 minus Davis Polk it's more like 75-90 grads versus 32. When you adjust for class size, not terrible.


It is really cool that we have all this new information available. I am hoping that someone will make a list and compare how schools compare for V10, V10-V20 and such. By just glancing at the firms individually I thought NYU/CLS had a significant advantage at top firms over Penn.


add in paul weiss which i remember at their event saying they hired 20-25 (i forget exact number) NYU summers that year. lets say that on the low end they hired 10-15 that changes it from 75-90 to 85-110 it makes a big difference

kaiser
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby kaiser » Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:46 am

izy223 wrote:
law2015 wrote:
banjo wrote:CLS/NYU clearly beat Penn in the tippy top firms, but it's not a blowout. In the V10 minus Davis Polk it's more like 75-90 grads versus 32. When you adjust for class size, not terrible.


It is really cool that we have all this new information available. I am hoping that someone will make a list and compare how schools compare for V10, V10-V20 and such. By just glancing at the firms individually I thought NYU/CLS had a significant advantage at top firms over Penn.


add in paul weiss which i remember at their event saying they hired 20-25 (i forget exact number) NYU summers that year. lets say that on the low end they hired 10-15 that changes it from 75-90 to 85-110 it makes a big difference


Yeah, no doubt lots of Paul Weiss kids at NYU. Among transfers alone, I know of 4 PW summers (class of 2013 though)

chipchip
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby chipchip » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:44 am

I'll confirm that those numbers definitely are off for firms like W&C, Latham, and others for GULC, especially when you factor in clerks. (The only W&C hire there is a special case, as far as I'm aware.) Not to mention firms that aren't included anyway.

Just my .02 cents.

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skers
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby skers » Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:12 am

Crowing wrote:Kirkland: NU 17, UChi 9

Is that typical?


Who the fuck knows really. Some people may have just preferred Jenner and Sidley. Chicago sent 16 summers to Kirkland last year, so if you have the grades and want to SHATTER THE MARKET you'll be fine.

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Samara
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Samara » Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:28 am

TemporarySaint wrote:
Crowing wrote:Kirkland: NU 17, UChi 9

Is that typical?


Who the fuck knows really. Some people may have just preferred Jenner and Sidley. Chicago sent 16 summers to Kirkland last year, so if you have the grades and want to SHATTER THE MARKET you'll be fine.

I don't think there is usually such a disparity, but Kirkland traditionally hires a lot of NU people.

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JamesDean1955
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby JamesDean1955 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:43 am

I stand by my earlier posts:

% of students obtaining biglaw at a certain school is roughly your % chance at said school. Placement stats /=/ placement ability, but if anything they underestimate placement ability, not overestimate.

The whole "T6" and "CCN > MCPB" thing is completely overrated and an arbitrary TLS invention. CCN may place more into the very prestigious firms, but that's it. Honestly I'm far more concerned with obtaining a NYC market paying job that I am "V10 or bust." If you're that much of a prestige whore...I don't even :roll: ...

Also I don't think MVP are complete "peers." But anyways, I know TLS doesn't agree with any of this. Carry on.

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Robespierre
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Robespierre » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:23 am

Another underrepresented firm is Sidley. The NLJ data has them at 38 new associates. Really it's close to 100 for all US offices.

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Sheffield
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Sheffield » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:54 am

When you land a (SA) firm that pays BL $$, does their rank matter? Is it significant that they have +300 attorneys or 50? In case it does matter, please expound. Thx.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:16 pm

Sheffield wrote:When you land a (SA) firm that pays BL $$, does their rank matter? Is it significant that they have +300 attorneys or 50? In case it does matter, please expound. Thx.


Rank? Are you serious? So, you're asking if the size of the firm matters? No. Assuming you receive more than one SA offer, what matters is the following in order: offer rate for SA's, yearly retention rate for hired associates, billable hour requirements for hired associates, benefits for hired associates (including bar stipends), associate/partner ratio, anything else of value to you (i.e. whether pro bono hours are counted as billable hours).

keg411
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby keg411 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:48 pm

Sheffield wrote:When you land a (SA) firm that pays BL $$, does their rank matter? Is it significant that they have +300 attorneys or 50? In case it does matter, please expound. Thx.


The V100 is basically "how preftigious is your NYC corporate work". What matters most is Chambers if you have a practice area preference.

Also, came here to LOL at Michigan.

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Elston Gunn
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Elston Gunn » Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:05 pm

zman wrote:
Holynorth wrote:Just curious since I figured you all would know, what are most Yale graduates doing? Are they going into private practice or something? I noticed they only place 30% into biglaw so assuming they found something better to do.


clerkships.


That, and people who want PI jobs can actually get them. (They're definitely not doing academia right out of school.)

law2015
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby law2015 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:08 pm

Sheffield wrote:When you land a (SA) firm that pays BL $$, does their rank matter? Is it significant that they have +300 attorneys or 50? In case it does matter, please expound. Thx.


Yes it matters. The higher ranked firms are likely to provide better exit options.

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guano
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby guano » Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:09 pm

law2015 wrote:
Sheffield wrote:When you land a (SA) firm that pays BL $$, does their rank matter? Is it significant that they have +300 attorneys or 50? In case it does matter, please expound. Thx.


Yes it matters. The higher ranked firms are likely to provide better exit options.

Although if you have a particular practice area in mind, Chambers is more authorative

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JamesDean1955
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby JamesDean1955 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:30 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
Sheffield wrote:When you land a (SA) firm that pays BL $$, does their rank matter? Is it significant that they have +300 attorneys or 50? In case it does matter, please expound. Thx.


Rank? Are you serious? So, you're asking if the size of the firm matters? No. Assuming you receive more than one SA offer, what matters is the following in order: offer rate for SA's, yearly retention rate for hired associates, billable hour requirements for hired associates, benefits for hired associates (including bar stipends), associate/partner ratio, anything else of value to you (i.e. whether pro bono hours are counted as billable hours).


+1. As long as we're talking about roughly V100 firms. Within the V100 I wouldn't think your exit options would be drastically different (maybe for the top 10 firms they might be slightly better). If anyone believes otherwise, I would love to see some actual evidence.

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Rahviveh
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Rahviveh » Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:36 pm

It would be cool if there was a regional breakdown by location

law2015
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby law2015 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 1:39 pm

JamesDean1955 wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:
Sheffield wrote:When you land a (SA) firm that pays BL $$, does their rank matter? Is it significant that they have +300 attorneys or 50? In case it does matter, please expound. Thx.


Rank? Are you serious? So, you're asking if the size of the firm matters? No. Assuming you receive more than one SA offer, what matters is the following in order: offer rate for SA's, yearly retention rate for hired associates, billable hour requirements for hired associates, benefits for hired associates (including bar stipends), associate/partner ratio, anything else of value to you (i.e. whether pro bono hours are counted as billable hours).


+1. As long as we're talking about roughly V100 firms. Within the V100 I wouldn't think your exit options would be drastically different (maybe for the top 10 firms they might be slightly better). If anyone believes otherwise, I would love to see some actual evidence.


Options from a V10 are more likely than not significantly better than those coming from lower ranked firms. What evidence do you think someone can show you?

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:01 pm

When you look at the breakdown by firm, it's actually sort of amazing how inaccurate this NLJ data is considering this has been the go-to "reliable" source for job placement power.

zman
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby zman » Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:00 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:When you look at the breakdown by firm, it's actually sort of amazing how inaccurate this NLJ data is considering this has been the go-to "reliable" source for job placement power.


well the data that schools report is similar and other organizations too.

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star fox
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby star fox » Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:10 pm

Crowing wrote:Kirkland: NU 17, UChi 9

Is that typical?


Pretty sure Kirkland just made a big donation to Northwestern. So they probably like that school a lot (and its students with that previous work experience).

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star fox
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby star fox » Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:13 pm

JamesDean1955 wrote:I stand by my earlier posts:

% of students obtaining biglaw at a certain school is roughly your % chance at said school. Placement stats /=/ placement ability, but if anything they underestimate placement ability, not overestimate.

The whole "T6" and "CCN > MCPB" thing is completely overrated and an arbitrary TLS invention. CCN may place more into the very prestigious firms, but that's it. Honestly I'm far more concerned with obtaining a NYC market paying job that I am "V10 or bust." If you're that much of a prestige whore...I don't even :roll: ...

Also I don't think MVP are complete "peers." But anyways, I know TLS doesn't agree with any of this. Carry on.


The legal world in a nutshell. With how competitive it is out there, everyone's a prestige whore.




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