NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

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JamesDean1955
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby JamesDean1955 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:21 pm

I really think people are over analyzing this whole thing. Yes, the tiers are useless. Yes, it will be impossible to know exactly how and exactly why ones chances improve/worsen from one school to the next (outside of HYS).

But the bottom line is (correct me if I'm wrong), the % students getting A3 clerkships + biglaw is ROUGHLY greater than or equal to your % chances of doing the same. That is to say that placement stats /=/ placement ability, but in fact they understate placement ability. How could they overstate placement ability? Students just "getting lucky"? I don't think so. If you go to Penn, at least 60% of your class is getting biglaw. If you go to Michigan, x% or more of your class is getting biglaw.

If a school places 70% in biglaw, then clearly firms are taking below median students. Are these below median students being selected by grades? Interview skills? Ties? Who cares!

If I'm going to take out a shitload of loans to finance my legal education, I want to go to the one that, on paper, has the best placement stats for the job outcomes I need to pay off my loans. Statistically speaking this is the best chance I have, these are the only measurements available, and postulating "what if" scenarios is just a waste of time.

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Rahviveh
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Rahviveh » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:26 pm

JamesDean1955 wrote:I really think people are over analyzing this whole thing. Yes, the tiers are useless. Yes, it will be impossible to know exactly how and exactly why ones chances improve/worsen from one school to the next (outside of HYS).

But the bottom line is (correct me if I'm wrong), the % students getting A3 clerkships + biglaw is ROUGHLY greater than or equal to your % chances of doing the same. That is to say that placement stats /=/ placement ability, but in fact they understate placement ability. How could they overstate placement ability? Students just "getting lucky"? I don't think so.

If a school places 70% in biglaw, then clearly firms are taking below median students. Are these below median students being selected by grades? Interview skills? Ties? Who cares!

If I'm going to take out a shitload of loans to finance my legal education, I want to go to the one that, on paper, has the best placement stats for the job outcomes I need to pay off my loans. Statistically speaking this is the best chance I have, these are the only measurements available, and postulating "what if" scenarios is just a waste of time.

Although I agree with this sentiment, as you know the choice people will usually be faced with is whether to take P over M or V with larger scholarships. At that point you have to decide whether you're willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars based on your faith in these stats.

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JamesDean1955
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby JamesDean1955 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:29 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
JamesDean1955 wrote:I really think people are over analyzing this whole thing. Yes, the tiers are useless. Yes, it will be impossible to know exactly how and exactly why ones chances improve/worsen from one school to the next (outside of HYS).

But the bottom line is (correct me if I'm wrong), the % students getting A3 clerkships + biglaw is ROUGHLY greater than or equal to your % chances of doing the same. That is to say that placement stats /=/ placement ability, but in fact they understate placement ability. How could they overstate placement ability? Students just "getting lucky"? I don't think so.

If a school places 70% in biglaw, then clearly firms are taking below median students. Are these below median students being selected by grades? Interview skills? Ties? Who cares!

If I'm going to take out a shitload of loans to finance my legal education, I want to go to the one that, on paper, has the best placement stats for the job outcomes I need to pay off my loans. Statistically speaking this is the best chance I have, these are the only measurements available, and postulating "what if" scenarios is just a waste of time.

Although I agree with this sentiment, as you know the choice people will usually be faced with is whether to take P over M or V with larger scholarships. At that point you have to decide whether you're willing to spend tens of thousands of dollars based on your faith in these stats.


Agreed. Of course you need to assume scholarships are equal for this to work, which is seldom the case, but nevertheless I think this approach has value and you simply need to determine how much that (approximate) extra placement boost is, and how much that's worth to you.

There are two major concerns when taking out the level of debt that only biglaw can pay off. The first is getting the job in the first place. The second is sticking with it (or not getting pushed out) long enough to service your debt.

It's up to you to balance these concerns, but for me personally, I'm going to worry far more about the first concern rather than the latter.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby bizzybone1313 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:38 pm

It seems that M and V are underperforming relative to P due to having less lay prestige. Since a lot of Big Law work has to do with performing deals for business clients, Penn garners more respect among the Wharton/executive types.

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06102016
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby 06102016 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:39 pm

..

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stillwater
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby stillwater » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:41 pm

slack_academic wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:It seems that M and V are underperforming relative to P due to having less lay prestige. Since a lot of Big Law work has to do with performing deals for business clients, Penn garners more respect among the Wharton/executive types.

Why would law firms care about lay prestige?


if there were even an argument for this, it would presumably be because clients are laypersons

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JamesDean1955
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby JamesDean1955 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:42 pm

"You can't eat prestige" - LST

Idk if it's prestige, maybe a little, probably not a lot, but Penn out-places M and V in biglaw, that's a fact.

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bizzybone1313
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby bizzybone1313 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:43 pm

slack_academic wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:It seems that M and V are underperforming relative to P due to having less lay prestige. Since a lot of Big Law work has to do with performing deals for business clients, Penn garners more respect among the Wharton/executive types.

Why would law firms care about lay prestige?


I had never heard of the University of Virginia until a few years back when I started doing research on law schools. Some of the people that want legal services are lay people. Basically, Penn in the northeast is probably a whole lot more respected than Virginia and Michigan. The numbers seem to show this. To be honest, I didn't know Penn was an Ivy until I looked them up. I have always known Harvard, Yale, Columbia and Cornell are Ivies.

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mephistopheles
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby mephistopheles » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:44 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:
slack_academic wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:It seems that M and V are underperforming relative to P due to having less lay prestige. Since a lot of Big Law work has to do with performing deals for business clients, Penn garners more respect among the Wharton/executive types.

Why would law firms care about lay prestige?


I had never heard of the University of Virginia until a few years back when I started doing research on law schools. Some of the people that want legal services are lay people. Basically, Penn in the northeast is probably a whole lot more respected than Virginia and Michigan. The numbers seem to show this. To be honest, I didn't know Penn was an Ivy until I looked them up. I have always known Harvard, Yale, Columbia and Cornell are Ivies.



is michigan even that respected anywhere? (well, aside from michigan and the rest of the midwesttt?

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bizzybone1313
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby bizzybone1313 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:46 pm

stillwater wrote:
slack_academic wrote:
bizzybone1313 wrote:It seems that M and V are underperforming relative to P due to having less lay prestige. Since a lot of Big Law work has to do with performing deals for business clients, Penn garners more respect among the Wharton/executive types.

Why would law firms care about lay prestige?


if there were even an argument for this, it would presumably be because clients are laypersons


Exactly. If the clients aren't lawyers themselves, then by definition they are laypersons, even if they have MBA's from Harvard and the like.

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Nelson
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Nelson » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:51 pm

bizzybone1313 wrote:It seems that M and V are underperforming relative to P due to having less lay prestige. Since a lot of Big Law work has to do with performing deals for business clients, Penn garners more respect among the Wharton/executive types.

This is preposterous. You must be trolling.

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06102016
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby 06102016 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:59 pm

..

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suralin
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby suralin » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:03 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:HYS, CCP, N/N/V/B/C/D/M, G

But this is nothing new if you have been looking at NLJ and Art. 3 placement over the last few years (since 2005).

EDIT: I do worry that it will eventually be M/G will be together at the end of the T14. I am actually serious.


What the fuck? Did nobody else see this?

Why are you so adamant about CCP? Columbia placed 53.26% and NYU placed 52.93% into the NLJ 250, that's a difference of less than 0.33%. Even granting that only a trivial number of NYU's grads self-select into preftigious PI, how does that justify CCP with NYU an entire tier below?

Disclaimer: Not a future NYU student, just trying to understand your logic.

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Crowing
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Crowing » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:04 pm

JamesDean1955 wrote:If a school places 70% in biglaw, then clearly firms are taking below median students.


This is not actually true. I mean I'm sure firms DO take below median students, but that figure doesn't necessarily imply that.

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Crowing
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Crowing » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:05 pm

Suralin wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:HYS, CCP, N/N/V/B/C/D/M, G

But this is nothing new if you have been looking at NLJ and Art. 3 placement over the last few years (since 2005).

EDIT: I do worry that it will eventually be M/G will be together at the end of the T14. I am actually serious.


What the fuck? Did nobody else see this?

Why are you so adamant about CCP? Columbia placed 53.26% and NYU placed 52.93% into the NLJ 250, that's a difference of less than 0.33%. Even granting that only a trivial number of NYU's grads self-select into preftigious PI, how does that justify CCP with NYU an entire tier below?

Disclaimer: Not a future NYU student, just trying to understand your logic.


He has been seriously Penn trolling for a long time now and nobody understands why because he doesn't even go to Penn.

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JamesDean1955
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby JamesDean1955 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:05 pm

Crowing wrote:
JamesDean1955 wrote:If a school places 70% in biglaw, then clearly firms are taking below median students.


This is not actually true. I mean I'm sure firms DO take below median students, but that figure doesn't necessarily imply that.


Can you explain why?

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mephistopheles
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby mephistopheles » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:05 pm

Crowing wrote:
JamesDean1955 wrote:If a school places 70% in biglaw, then clearly firms are taking below median students.


This is not actually true. I mean I'm sure firms DO take below median students, but that figure doesn't necessarily imply that.


practically, i think it does.

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Crowing
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Crowing » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:07 pm

JamesDean1955 wrote:
Crowing wrote:
JamesDean1955 wrote:If a school places 70% in biglaw, then clearly firms are taking below median students.


This is not actually true. I mean I'm sure firms DO take below median students, but that figure doesn't necessarily imply that.


Can you explain why?


My understanding is that due to the way law schools grade, there are typically a lot more than 50% people at or above median, but I'm sure this varies by school.

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Rahviveh
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Rahviveh » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:09 pm

Crowing wrote:
JamesDean1955 wrote:
Crowing wrote:
JamesDean1955 wrote:If a school places 70% in biglaw, then clearly firms are taking below median students.


This is not actually true. I mean I'm sure firms DO take below median students, but that figure doesn't necessarily imply that.


Can you explain why?


My understanding is that due to the way law schools grade, there are typically a lot more than 50% people at or above median, but I'm sure this varies by school.

Right, a lot of people are clustered at median, so "below median" might only be 30-40% of the class.

So from our standpoint we are really thinking of probabilities and below median is not necessarily a helpful concept
Last edited by Rahviveh on Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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stillwater
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby stillwater » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:09 pm

mephistopheles wrote:
Crowing wrote:
JamesDean1955 wrote:If a school places 70% in biglaw, then clearly firms are taking below median students.


This is not actually true. I mean I'm sure firms DO take below median students, but that figure doesn't necessarily imply that.


practically, i think it does.


yea, wut????, how does that mean they don't dip below median?

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Davidbentley
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Davidbentley » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:11 pm

Crowing wrote:
JamesDean1955 wrote:
Crowing wrote:
JamesDean1955 wrote:If a school places 70% in biglaw, then clearly firms are taking below median students.


This is not actually true. I mean I'm sure firms DO take below median students, but that figure doesn't necessarily imply that.


Can you explain why?


My understanding is that due to the way law schools grade, there are typically a lot more than 50% people at or above median, but I'm sure this varies by school.


I've been trying to clarify the median thing for quite a while. People don't listen. 5 out of 3 americans don't understand statistics and all that.

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mephistopheles
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby mephistopheles » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:11 pm

stillwater wrote:
mephistopheles wrote:
Crowing wrote:
JamesDean1955 wrote:If a school places 70% in biglaw, then clearly firms are taking below median students.


This is not actually true. I mean I'm sure firms DO take below median students, but that figure doesn't necessarily imply that.


practically, i think it does.


yea, wut????, how does that mean they don't dip below median?


the idea is that it's a positively skewed normal distribution. see champagnepapi, supra. but, 70% may be a bit high to not dip below.

rad lulz
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby rad lulz » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:12 pm

In-house GCs who go to outside counsel are lawyers and as such don't care about lay prestige.

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stillwater
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby stillwater » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:13 pm

mephistopheles wrote:
the idea is that it's a positively skewed normal distribution so the median, while the center grade, is not the mean. see champagnepapi, supra. but, 70% may be a bit high.


yea a 20% bulge seems extreme

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JamesDean1955
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby JamesDean1955 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:16 pm

Ah, I'm always thinking in terms of a symmetric distribution, what y'all said makes sense.




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