NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

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Sheffield
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Sheffield » Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:48 pm

IAFG wrote:If bonuses are ever a real thing again, this may not be true in the future, but depending on bennies/taxes, you can straight up have a bigger take home in some non-NY markets despite making $145k.

What is the scoop on NYC pay bonuses (and other benefits) versus those of Philly sized markets?

Given my less than out-of-the-ballpark grades for NYC, I do not have a view from the front row (much less the private box club).

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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby pastapplicant » Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:51 pm

JamesDean1955 wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:
pastapplicant wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:HYS, CCP, N/N/V/B/C/D/M, G

But this is nothing new if you have been looking at NLJ and Art. 3 placement over the last few years (since 2005).

EDIT: I do worry that it will eventually be M/G will be together at the end of the T14. I am actually serious.


brah, why do you feel so compelled to go into every single thread and try to establish your own T14 hierarchy when in reality firms and hiring people just don't care about these trivial brackets? i've been on this site for a while now and it seems like you spend most of your time doing this. judging from your profile you go to tulane so what's your obsession? i just don't get it.

Also, really can't see why this data supports what he's saying. Honestly when I saw the list I thought maybe this will put a nail in the CCP schtick but I guess not.

Also yeah, Paul, Weiss = honestly probably like 3-4% of NYU's class (15-20 people). Probably the same at CLS. So CCN ought to be almost literally tied here. (Since it seems reasonable to assume that only 1-3 people or so from Chicago go to PW.)

Edit: From their website looks like 2 Chicago 'law clerks,' 10 from NYU, 13 from CLS. Actually surprised the NYU number is that low but I suppose people who did SAs at Paul Weiss tend to try to clerk, so that's probably part of it.


By looking at this data alone, you're right there is no "CCP", it's actually P>CCN. But the NLJ250 chart isn't the only source of data. The bottom line is while he was probably Penn > NYU trolling, that is actually supported if you were to only look at this data.


Any data is going to have biases one way or another as you said. My point is simply that all this talk on TLS about CCN or CCP or MVP tiers is pretty stupid seeing how most hiring people don't care or even know about these made up tiers. All I wanted to do was point out Aberzombie's constant trolling in every single thread that even slightly relates to UPenn or NYU. I can understand someone like Taipeimort trolling for Chicago since he actually attends the school. But I really don't Aberzombie's obsession with UPenn when he attends Tulane.

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IAFG
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby IAFG » Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:52 pm

pastapplicant wrote:But I really don't Aberzombie's obsession with UPenn when he attends Tulane.

Surely he transferred, otherwise it is really weird

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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby 09042014 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:02 pm

It is important to realize that these numbers are merely students who get it, not some objective number of how much of a class could get big lawl.

Self selection is a huge and virtually impossible to account for:

Which markets you target can be a huge difference. If the % of penn students who targeted DC was the same as the ones from Georgetown, Penn wouldn't be #1. The locations Cornell and Michigan try to place into are radically different.

I also don't think it's much of a coincident that rural school tend to do worse. People big cities tend to avoid those schools. And people from smaller towns don't. And then they try to get back to their secondary or tertiary markets (some of which don't even have many NLj250 firms) it's hard.

Of course, there are different numbers of PI kiddies, JD/MBA bros, daddy's paying my tuition, etc. etc. which mess it around.

I sincerely doubt a student who goes to Michigan has 20% less chance of getting big law than if she had gone to Penn, and made the same grades, had the same resume, interview the same, at the same firms.

What should be clear:

CNN > MVPB> DNCG is a stupid 0L scheme based on how hard these schools are to GET into. It's never had anything to do with job placement.

UVA's TTT OCI interviewing system is a joke that hurts most of the class for the benefit of a few who don't need any help

These schools aren't work 250K of debt.

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Rahviveh
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Rahviveh » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:11 pm

Desert Fox wrote:It is important to realize that these numbers are merely students who get it, not some objective number of how much of a class could get big lawl.

Self selection is a huge and virtually impossible to account for:

Which markets you target can be a huge difference. If the % of penn students who targeted DC was the same as the ones from Georgetown, Penn wouldn't be #1. The locations Cornell and Michigan try to place into are radically different.

I also don't think it's much of a coincident that rural school tend to do worse. People big cities tend to avoid those schools. And people from smaller towns don't. And then they try to get back to their secondary or tertiary markets (some of which don't even have many NLj250 firms) it's hard.

Of course, there are different numbers of PI kiddies, JD/MBA bros, daddy's paying my tuition, etc. etc. which mess it around.

I sincerely doubt a student who goes to Michigan has 20% less chance of getting big law than if she had gone to Penn, and made the same grades, had the same resume, interview the same, at the same firms.

What should be clear:

CNN > MVPB> DNCG is a stupid 0L scheme based on how hard these schools are to GET into. It's never had anything to do with job placement.

UVA's TTT OCI interviewing system is a joke that hurts most of the class for the benefit of a few who don't need any help

These schools aren't work 250K of debt.

How do you explain Penn outplacing Cornell significantly? I would imagine Cornell kids are more NYC focused than Penn kids

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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby 09042014 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:23 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:It is important to realize that these numbers are merely students who get it, not some objective number of how much of a class could get big lawl.

Self selection is a huge and virtually impossible to account for:

Which markets you target can be a huge difference. If the % of penn students who targeted DC was the same as the ones from Georgetown, Penn wouldn't be #1. The locations Cornell and Michigan try to place into are radically different.

I also don't think it's much of a coincident that rural school tend to do worse. People big cities tend to avoid those schools. And people from smaller towns don't. And then they try to get back to their secondary or tertiary markets (some of which don't even have many NLj250 firms) it's hard.

Of course, there are different numbers of PI kiddies, JD/MBA bros, daddy's paying my tuition, etc. etc. which mess it around.

I sincerely doubt a student who goes to Michigan has 20% less chance of getting big law than if she had gone to Penn, and made the same grades, had the same resume, interview the same, at the same firms.

What should be clear:

CNN > MVPB> DNCG is a stupid 0L scheme based on how hard these schools are to GET into. It's never had anything to do with job placement.

UVA's TTT OCI interviewing system is a joke that hurts most of the class for the benefit of a few who don't need any help

These schools aren't work 250K of debt.

How do you explain Penn outplacing Cornell significantly? I would imagine Cornell kids are more NYC focused than Penn kids


My point is that is could be a million different reasons. A couple years ago Cornell was number 1.

I really doubt firms are sitting there saying, fuck it lets not hire at Cornell because their median LSAT is 1 point lower than Penn! Those cornell kids are fucking mongoloids!

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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby dingbat » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:27 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:How do you explain Penn outplacing Cornell significantly? I would imagine Cornell kids are more NYC focused than Penn kids

Penn has two major markets it places into, NY and Philly. People tend to forget that Philly has a huge legal market as well, which is not much smaller than SF, LA, Boston, Dallas, etc.

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IAFG
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby IAFG » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:28 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
My point is that is could be a million different reasons. A couple years ago Cornell was number 1.

I really doubt firms are sitting there saying, fuck it lets not hire at Cornell because their median LSAT is 1 point lower than Penn! Those cornell kids are fucking mongoloids!

But a Cornell grad partner cycling off the hiring committee at Cleary and being replaced by a Duke alum could make a difference.

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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Crowing » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:28 pm

dingbat wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:How do you explain Penn outplacing Cornell significantly? I would imagine Cornell kids are more NYC focused than Penn kids

Penn has two major markets it places into, NY and Philly. People tend to forget that Philly has a huge legal market as well, which is not much smaller than SF, LA, Boston, Dallas, etc.


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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby EvilClinton » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:28 pm

dingbat wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:How do you explain Penn outplacing Cornell significantly? I would imagine Cornell kids are more NYC focused than Penn kids

Penn has two major markets it places into, NY and Philly. People tend to forget that Philly has a huge legal market as well, which is not much smaller than SF, LA, Boston, Dallas, etc.

So now you are back?

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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby IAFG » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:29 pm

dingbat wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:How do you explain Penn outplacing Cornell significantly? I would imagine Cornell kids are more NYC focused than Penn kids

Penn has two major markets it places into, NY and Philly. People tend to forget that Philly has a huge legal market as well, which is not much smaller than SF, LA, Boston, Dallas, etc.

By legal market size, are you talking SA class sizes? Because I haven't run the numbers on NALP in a couple years, but that doesn't sound right.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:29 pm

dingbat wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:How do you explain Penn outplacing Cornell significantly? I would imagine Cornell kids are more NYC focused than Penn kids

Penn has two major markets it places into, NY and Philly. People tend to forget that Philly has a huge legal market as well, which is not much smaller than SF, LA, Boston, Dallas, etc.

DF was saying that a median student at either school has the same opportunities. This explanation suggests they don't.

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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby 04102014 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:29 pm

Crowing wrote:
dingbat wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:How do you explain Penn outplacing Cornell significantly? I would imagine Cornell kids are more NYC focused than Penn kids

Penn has two major markets it places into, NY and Philly. People tend to forget that Philly has a huge legal market as well, which is not much smaller than SF, LA, Boston, Dallas, etc.


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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby stillwater » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:30 pm

IAFG wrote:
dingbat wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:How do you explain Penn outplacing Cornell significantly? I would imagine Cornell kids are more NYC focused than Penn kids

Penn has two major markets it places into, NY and Philly. People tend to forget that Philly has a huge legal market as well, which is not much smaller than SF, LA, Boston, Dallas, etc.

By legal market size, are you talking SA class sizes? Because I haven't run the numbers on NALP in a couple years, but that doesn't sound right.


i thought philly had a relatively small legal market given its size

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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Dmini7 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:31 pm

dingbat wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:How do you explain Penn outplacing Cornell significantly? I would imagine Cornell kids are more NYC focused than Penn kids

Penn has two major markets it places into, NY and Philly. People tend to forget that Philly has a huge legal market as well, which is not much smaller than SF, LA, Boston, Dallas, etc.


Obviously being the Pope wasn't all he thought it would be. I guess we can forgive him for leaving us for what amounted to nearly 5 whole days.

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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Rahviveh » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:37 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:It is important to realize that these numbers are merely students who get it, not some objective number of how much of a class could get big lawl.

Self selection is a huge and virtually impossible to account for:

Which markets you target can be a huge difference. If the % of penn students who targeted DC was the same as the ones from Georgetown, Penn wouldn't be #1. The locations Cornell and Michigan try to place into are radically different.

I also don't think it's much of a coincident that rural school tend to do worse. People big cities tend to avoid those schools. And people from smaller towns don't. And then they try to get back to their secondary or tertiary markets (some of which don't even have many NLj250 firms) it's hard.

Of course, there are different numbers of PI kiddies, JD/MBA bros, daddy's paying my tuition, etc. etc. which mess it around.

I sincerely doubt a student who goes to Michigan has 20% less chance of getting big law than if she had gone to Penn, and made the same grades, had the same resume, interview the same, at the same firms.

What should be clear:

CNN > MVPB> DNCG is a stupid 0L scheme based on how hard these schools are to GET into. It's never had anything to do with job placement.

UVA's TTT OCI interviewing system is a joke that hurts most of the class for the benefit of a few who don't need any help

These schools aren't work 250K of debt.

How do you explain Penn outplacing Cornell significantly? I would imagine Cornell kids are more NYC focused than Penn kids


My point is that is could be a million different reasons. A couple years ago Cornell was number 1.

I really doubt firms are sitting there saying, fuck it lets not hire at Cornell because their median LSAT is 1 point lower than Penn! Those cornell kids are fucking mongoloids!

Right I understand. Fwiw though the 4 year average on the second page of this thread has Penn ahead by 10%

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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby 09042014 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:42 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
dingbat wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:How do you explain Penn outplacing Cornell significantly? I would imagine Cornell kids are more NYC focused than Penn kids

Penn has two major markets it places into, NY and Philly. People tend to forget that Philly has a huge legal market as well, which is not much smaller than SF, LA, Boston, Dallas, etc.

DF was saying that a median student at either school has the same opportunities. This explanation suggests they don't.


Unless the student at Cornell would have aimed for Philly, instead where they want to, I don't there would be any difference.

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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby 09042014 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:48 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:It is important to realize that these numbers are merely students who get it, not some objective number of how much of a class could get big lawl.

Self selection is a huge and virtually impossible to account for:

Which markets you target can be a huge difference. If the % of penn students who targeted DC was the same as the ones from Georgetown, Penn wouldn't be #1. The locations Cornell and Michigan try to place into are radically different.

I also don't think it's much of a coincident that rural school tend to do worse. People big cities tend to avoid those schools. And people from smaller towns don't. And then they try to get back to their secondary or tertiary markets (some of which don't even have many NLj250 firms) it's hard.

Of course, there are different numbers of PI kiddies, JD/MBA bros, daddy's paying my tuition, etc. etc. which mess it around.

I sincerely doubt a student who goes to Michigan has 20% less chance of getting big law than if she had gone to Penn, and made the same grades, had the same resume, interview the same, at the same firms.

What should be clear:

CNN > MVPB> DNCG is a stupid 0L scheme based on how hard these schools are to GET into. It's never had anything to do with job placement.

UVA's TTT OCI interviewing system is a joke that hurts most of the class for the benefit of a few who don't need any help

These schools aren't work 250K of debt.

How do you explain Penn outplacing Cornell significantly? I would imagine Cornell kids are more NYC focused than Penn kids


My point is that is could be a million different reasons. A couple years ago Cornell was number 1.

I really doubt firms are sitting there saying, fuck it lets not hire at Cornell because their median LSAT is 1 point lower than Penn! Those cornell kids are fucking mongoloids!

Right I understand. Fwiw though the 4 year average on the second page of this thread has Penn ahead by 10%


It could be people targeting philly. It could be more students from smaller towns. It could be a million things.

There definitely could be a preference in a significant number of firms that creates the difference. My point is that it's virtually impossible to figure out how much Penn adds to an individual students chances compared to Cornell. And that's all anyone really wants to know.

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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby moonman157 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:51 pm

Desert Fox wrote:It is important to realize that these numbers are merely students who get it, not some objective number of how much of a class could get big lawl.

Self selection is a huge and virtually impossible to account for:

Which markets you target can be a huge difference. If the % of penn students who targeted DC was the same as the ones from Georgetown, Penn wouldn't be #1. The locations Cornell and Michigan try to place into are radically different.

I also don't think it's much of a coincident that rural school tend to do worse. People big cities tend to avoid those schools. And people from smaller towns don't. And then they try to get back to their secondary or tertiary markets (some of which don't even have many NLj250 firms) it's hard.

Of course, there are different numbers of PI kiddies, JD/MBA bros, daddy's paying my tuition, etc. etc. which mess it around.

I sincerely doubt a student who goes to Michigan has 20% less chance of getting big law than if she had gone to Penn, and made the same grades, had the same resume, interview the same, at the same firms.

What should be clear:

CNN > MVPB> DNCG is a stupid 0L scheme based on how hard these schools are to GET into. It's never had anything to do with job placement.

UVA's TTT OCI interviewing system is a joke that hurts most of the class for the benefit of a few who don't need any help

These schools aren't work 250K of debt.


Even as a metric for admissions, the distinction is pretty worthless. Northwestern is hella hard to get into if you dont have WE, even if your numbers are good. UVA waitlists the fuck out of people, and Penn YPs pretty heavily as well. Berk is just super random.

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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby 09042014 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:53 pm

Well it's no coincidence NW is the only t14 I got into. TTT admissions.

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Crowing
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Crowing » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:55 pm

moonman157 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:It is important to realize that these numbers are merely students who get it, not some objective number of how much of a class could get big lawl.

Self selection is a huge and virtually impossible to account for:

Which markets you target can be a huge difference. If the % of penn students who targeted DC was the same as the ones from Georgetown, Penn wouldn't be #1. The locations Cornell and Michigan try to place into are radically different.

I also don't think it's much of a coincident that rural school tend to do worse. People big cities tend to avoid those schools. And people from smaller towns don't. And then they try to get back to their secondary or tertiary markets (some of which don't even have many NLj250 firms) it's hard.

Of course, there are different numbers of PI kiddies, JD/MBA bros, daddy's paying my tuition, etc. etc. which mess it around.

I sincerely doubt a student who goes to Michigan has 20% less chance of getting big law than if she had gone to Penn, and made the same grades, had the same resume, interview the same, at the same firms.

What should be clear:

CNN > MVPB> DNCG is a stupid 0L scheme based on how hard these schools are to GET into. It's never had anything to do with job placement.

UVA's TTT OCI interviewing system is a joke that hurts most of the class for the benefit of a few who don't need any help

These schools aren't work 250K of debt.


Even as a metric for admissions, the distinction is pretty worthless. Northwestern is hella hard to get into if you dont have WE, even if your numbers are good. UVA waitlists the fuck out of people, and Penn YPs pretty heavily as well. Berk is just super random.


It's a more accurate grouping based on general strength of incoming medians.

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06102016
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby 06102016 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:55 pm

..

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Nelson
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Nelson » Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:02 pm

Desert Fox wrote:My point is that it's virtually impossible to figure out how much Penn adds to an individual students chances compared to Cornell. And that's all anyone really wants to know.

This.
Desert Fox wrote:These schools aren't work 250K of debt.

And this.

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Sheffield
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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Sheffield » Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:07 pm

shntn wrote:
Sheffield wrote:While Philly compensation maybe $20K less than NYC, the Philly COL likely makes up the difference (not that Philly is cheap, just cheaper).

I work at one of these firms, and this is absolutely true. In terms of purchasing power, our Philly associates are significantly better off than those in NYC, despite making $15k less per year.

I said $20K because NYC is usually $165 and I thought Pepper had the highest starting pay in Philly at $145K (even heard $135K). Nevertheless, my being wrong is never breaking news!

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Re: NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012

Postby Cobretti » Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:08 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Well it's no coincidence NW is the only t14 I got into. TTT admissions.

8)




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