NLJ 250 Placement for C/O 2012 Forum

[guano]

Is Penn placing all of these kids in NYC, or are other east coast markets recovering and bolstering these numbers?

Penn places in both NY and in Philly, which is a decent sized legal market in its own right

[Tiago Splitter]

Going forward, is this the new normal or could we see significantly worse numbers for future classes?

That's four years in a row with numbers like these.

[dsn32]

Is Penn placing all of these kids in NYC, or are other east coast markets recovering and bolstering these numbers?

Penn places in both NY and in Philly, which is a decent sized legal market in its own right

Good to know. I'm very much of the "any big law that isn't in NYC" variety, and Philly seems much closer to what I'm used to.

[Nynaeve]

Penn 3L here. C/O 2012, like my class, had a strikingly large number of folks head to LA, DC, and TX. Penn has not been as NYC-focused these last few years as is portrayed in these forums. Few folks end up in Philly (though anyone can, if they want, it seems).

I'm very curious to see our numbers for the C/O 2013 next year; PI-focused people excluded, I can think of just a dozen or so people not doing an A3 clerkship or heading to a large firm. It's very odd.

Honestly don't know what's behind it. Our career office is seemingly pretty terrible, and I doubt the quality of the education is any different than is the education at CLS/NYU/Mich/UVA.

[pastapplicant]

HYS, CCP, N/N/V/B/C/D/M, G

But this is nothing new if you have been looking at NLJ and Art. 3 placement over the last few years (since 2005).

EDIT: I do worry that it will eventually be M/G will be together at the end of the T14. I am actually serious.

brah, why do you feel so compelled to go into every single thread and try to establish your own T14 hierarchy when in reality firms and hiring people just don't care about these trivial brackets? i've been on this site for a while now and it seems like you spend most of your time doing this. judging from your profile you go to tulane so what's your obsession? i just don't get it.

[dsn32]

Penn 3L here. C/O 2012, like my class, had a strikingly large number of folks head to LA, DC, and TX. Penn has not been as NYC-focused these last few years as is portrayed in these forums. Few folks end up in Philly (though anyone can, if they want, it seems).

I'm very curious to see our numbers for the C/O 2013 next year; PI-focused people excluded, I can think of just a dozen or so people not doing an A3 clerkship or heading to a large firm. It's very odd.

Honestly don't know what's behind it. Our career office is seemingly pretty terrible, and I doubt the quality of the education is any different than is the education at CLS/NYU/Mich/UVA.

Thank you for this. I definitely need to get all this info when I visit, but it's good to know that Penn is placing outside of NYC.

[20130312]

Few folks end up in Philly (though anyone can, if they want, it seems).

From speaking with some of your peers at Penn, this is simply not true. Philly was a bloodbath in SA hiring last year.

[thelawyler]

Few folks end up in Philly (though anyone can, if they want, it seems).

From speaking with some of your peers at Penn, this is simply not true. Philly was a bloodbath in SA hiring last year.

I've heard similar accounts of it being pretty hard to land Philly and it is not simply a "walk into it if we want" job. Perhaps Nynaeve has good grades/WE/ties to make him particularly desirable there?

[Nelson]

Few folks end up in Philly (though anyone can, if they want, it seems).

From speaking with some of your peers at Penn, this is simply not true. Philly was a bloodbath in SA hiring last year.

The grades for Philly firms tend to be pretty similar to their NY offices so I have always doubted the "anyone at Penn can get Philly" myth. It would be better explained as anyone who can get Philly with their grades can get NYC. Philly biglaw is definitely not a security blanket for bad grades.

[megagnarley]

IIRC Michigan was doing better before ITE which sorta lends credence to the lacking home market theory. Michigan tends to spread its grads but the theory is that when positions are few and firms have to cut hiring Michigan gets fucked because they're not the primary feeder into those firms. So NYC firms cut positions for Michigan grads in favor of CLS/NYU/Penn/Cornell grads, Chicago firms for UChi/NU, Cal firms for Stanford/Boalt, etc. I have no idea how true this is or not but on paper it makes sense.

Not disagreeing, but then how do you explain Dukes numbers not getting hit.

They aren't the primary feeder for DC, or NY, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt the southern states make up that much of the NLJ250 composition.

They have a smaller class size, but if the primary market theory is true their numbers shouldn't be trending up.

That's a good point to raise, and I don't really have a good answer for that. I suspect Duke's small size has helped them significantly. It's also claimed that Michigan's c/o 2011 got screwed because their CSO encouraged everybody to bid heavily on Chicago and then Chicago didn't recover ITE as well as NYC so a lot of people struck out. I suspect Michigan has traditionally targeted Chicago more than say Duke anyway due to its location in the Midwest. But that doesn't explain why the c/o 2012 data still sucks compared to its peers, so I have no idea.

Remember that it's not unusually for a school to have a year where it does a lot better or worse than typical - which is why you should always look at performance over several years

This has become more than a single year trend. Duke up Mich down.

[pedestrian]

Also look at UCLA/USC and BC/BU. Maybe this will stop the trolling for any of these individual schools for a while. But it probably won't.

Rankings drop for UCLA? Oh wait, that's right, USNWR rankings don't count useful shit.

Why would they drop? UCLA is #15 on NLJ and #15 on USNWR...

Theoretically, if the only factor in rankings was NLJ250 Placement (which it shouldn't be, but should definitely be included) then because USC > UCLA in the NLJ250 rankings, then USC > UCLA for USNWR.

Also, they are 15 on USNWR and 16 on this new NLJ250 list.

Are we looking at the same list? I see UCLA at 15 with 29.13% and USC at 16 with 28.64%. That difference is negligible to the point of being irrelevant but I don't see where USC>UCLA --> UCLA should fall in USNWR comes from.

Am I missing something?

[stillwater]

Theoretically, if the only factor in rankings was NLJ250 Placement (which it shouldn't be, but should definitely be included) then because USC > UCLA in the NLJ250 rankings, then USC > UCLA for USNWR.

Also, they are 15 on USNWR and 16 on this new NLJ250 list.

Are we looking at the same list? I see UCLA at 15 with 29.13% and USC at 16 with 28.64%. That difference is negligible to the point of being irrelevant but I don't see where USC>UCLA --> UCLA should fall in USNWR comes from.

Am I missing something?

Uhhhhhh, who cares about the USNWR?

also BU>BC and UCLA>USC, amirite??????

[dsn32]

Rankings drop for UCLA? Oh wait, that's right, USNWR rankings don't count useful shit.

Why would they drop? UCLA is #15 on NLJ and #15 on USNWR...

Theoretically, if the only factor in rankings was NLJ250 Placement (which it shouldn't be, but should definitely be included) then because USC > UCLA in the NLJ250 rankings, then USC > UCLA for USNWR.

Also, they are 15 on USNWR and 16 on this new NLJ250 list.

Are we looking at the same list? I see UCLA at 15 with 29.13% and USC at 16 with 28.64%. That difference is negligible to the point of being irrelevant but I don't see where USC>UCLA --> UCLA should fall in USNWR comes from.

Am I missing something?

USC placed significantly better in 2011 (32% vs. 24% or something like that). Not much of a justification, but that's where it's coming from.

[Nynaeve]

Few folks end up in Philly (though anyone can, if they want, it seems).

From speaking with some of your peers at Penn, this is simply not true. Philly was a bloodbath in SA hiring last year.

I've heard similar accounts of it being pretty hard to land Philly and it is not simply a "walk into it if we want" job. Perhaps Nynaeve has good grades/WE/ties to make him particularly desirable there?

Sorry, not trying to misinform, that's just the perception I had. I was at median, no ties, and straight out of undergrad. I based that particular statement on the C/O 2013 OCI, so perhaps it's no longer the case. For C/O 2013, it seemed like everyone who interviewed with at least a few Philly firms had at least one offer, but that's not fact and I've heard OCI this year was a bit rougher.

[Crowing]

Ouch, WUSTL got hammered. That class was 300 though. New 1L class is only 200.

It's up 3% from last year, which seems to be a pretty average increase considering the overall improvement between this year and last year.

Also posted this in the WUSTL thread:

It's not actually that bad when you consider that the schools ahead of WUSTL are 1) the T14 2) traditionally the 4 schools right outside the T14 (UCLA/UT/Vandy/USC) 3) schools known for being biglaw feeders (Fordham/BC/BU/GWU) 4) the inaugural graduating class of a tiny school that all attended on full schollys (UCI) and 5) UIUC. Lol UIUC is really the only one that surprises me.

That last quote sounds like some serious rationalization. Perhaps that is a little harsh since they basically placed in line with their peers ND and UIUC. I guess I am reacting to that in the context of the crazy blind love in the WUSTL c/o 2016 admissions thread.

Maybe so, but ultimately I still think WUSTL ended up at about where any reasonable person would expect. I'm not a past/current/future WUSTL student so I'm not trying to justify any personal decisions or anything like that.

[IAFG]

I was at median, no ties, and straight out of undergrad.

I guess that's why BruceWayne says people on TLS assume some GPAs don't exist. There are grades below median after all.

[Nynaeve]

I was at median, no ties, and straight out of undergrad.

I guess that's why BruceWayne says people on TLS assume some GPAs don't exist. There are grades below median after all.

Haha. Right, but I was basing my statements on folks whose grades ran the gamut - a bunch as low as what I think was bottom 15%-20% - not just my own average grades. It seemed like, during C/O 2013 OCI, Philly firms, with a few exceptions, were not very concerned with grades, but were more interested in your answer to "Why Philadelphia?"

P.S. I love your avatar.

[bizzybone1313]

I was at median, no ties, and straight out of undergrad.

I guess that's why BruceWayne says people on TLS assume some GPAs don't exist. There are grades below median after all.

Haha. Right, but I was basing my statements on folks whose grades ran the gamut - a bunch as low as what I think was bottom 15%-20% - not just my own average grades. It seemed like, during C/O 2013 OCI, Philly firms, with a few exceptions, were not very concerned with grades, but were more interested in your answer to "Why Philadelphia?"

P.S. I love your avatar.

I personally like Crowing's avatar. I almost spit lemonade on my screen when I first saw it.

[JamesDean1955]

Are we looking at the same list? I see UCLA at 15 with 29.13% and USC at 16 with 28.64%. That difference is negligible to the point of being irrelevant but I don't see where USC>UCLA --> UCLA should fall in USNWR comes from.

Am I missing something?

Yeah I was looking at last year's NLJ250 data, you're right. #readingcompfail

[stillwater]

Are we looking at the same list? I see UCLA at 15 with 29.13% and USC at 16 with 28.64%. That difference is negligible to the point of being irrelevant but I don't see where USC>UCLA --> UCLA should fall in USNWR comes from.

Am I missing something?

Yeah I was looking at last year's NLJ250 data, you're right. #readingcompfail

you should stand up and give yourself a 10 minute self-criticism. We will not accept such shortcomings ITT.

[Sheffield]

Penn 3L here. C/O 2012, like my class, had a strikingly large number of folks head to LA, DC, and TX. Penn has not been as NYC-focused these last few years as is portrayed in these forums. Few folks end up in Philly (though anyone can, if they want, it seems).

I'm very curious to see our numbers for the C/O 2013 next year; PI-focused people excluded, I can think of just a dozen or so people not doing an A3 clerkship or heading to a large firm. It's very odd.

Honestly don't know what's behind it. Our career office is seemingly pretty terrible, and I doubt the quality of the education is any different than is the education at CLS/NYU/Mich/UVA.

Thank you for this. I definitely need to get all this info when I visit, but it's good to know that Penn is placing outside of NYC.

I found Philly to be open to median grades. Not so much NYC.

Plus, checking the Philly firm links, there are a fair number of associates from Temple/Rutgers/Nova/Drex/Widener. Not so much the case with NYC firms.

Urban legend was that Philly firms were apprehensive about Penn because their hires would jump ship for NYC — I did not find that to be a concern (plus, who does that anymore?). While Philly compensation maybe $20K less than NYC, the Philly COL likely makes up the difference (not that Philly is cheap, just cheaper).

[shntn]

While Philly compensation maybe $20K less than NYC, the Philly COL likely makes up the difference (not that Philly is cheap, just cheaper).

I work at one of these firms, and this is absolutely true. In terms of purchasing power, our Philly associates are significantly better off than those in NYC, despite making $15k less per year.

[IAFG]

While Philly compensation maybe $20K less than NYC, the Philly COL likely makes up the difference (not that Philly is cheap, just cheaper).

I work at one of these firms, and this is absolutely true. In terms of purchasing power, our Philly associates are significantly better off than those in NYC, despite making $15k less per year.

If bonuses are ever a real thing again, this may not be true in the future, but depending on bennies/taxes, you can straight up have a bigger take home in some non-NY markets despite making $145k.

[dixiecupdrinking]

HYS, CCP, N/N/V/B/C/D/M, G

But this is nothing new if you have been looking at NLJ and Art. 3 placement over the last few years (since 2005).

EDIT: I do worry that it will eventually be M/G will be together at the end of the T14. I am actually serious.

brah, why do you feel so compelled to go into every single thread and try to establish your own T14 hierarchy when in reality firms and hiring people just don't care about these trivial brackets? i've been on this site for a while now and it seems like you spend most of your time doing this. judging from your profile you go to tulane so what's your obsession? i just don't get it.

Also, really can't see why this data supports what he's saying. Honestly when I saw the list I thought maybe this will put a nail in the CCP schtick but I guess not.

Also yeah, Paul, Weiss = honestly probably like 3-4% of NYU's class (15-20 people). Probably the same at CLS. So CCN ought to be almost literally tied here. (Since it seems reasonable to assume that only 1-3 people or so from Chicago go to PW.)

Edit: From their website looks like 2 Chicago 'law clerks,' 10 from NYU, 13 from CLS. Actually surprised the NYU number is that low but I suppose people who did SAs at Paul Weiss tend to try to clerk, so that's probably part of it.

[JamesDean1955]

HYS, CCP, N/N/V/B/C/D/M, G

But this is nothing new if you have been looking at NLJ and Art. 3 placement over the last few years (since 2005).

EDIT: I do worry that it will eventually be M/G will be together at the end of the T14. I am actually serious.

brah, why do you feel so compelled to go into every single thread and try to establish your own T14 hierarchy when in reality firms and hiring people just don't care about these trivial brackets? i've been on this site for a while now and it seems like you spend most of your time doing this. judging from your profile you go to tulane so what's your obsession? i just don't get it.

Also, really can't see why this data supports what he's saying. Honestly when I saw the list I thought maybe this will put a nail in the CCP schtick but I guess not.

Also yeah, Paul, Weiss = honestly probably like 3-4% of NYU's class (15-20 people). Probably the same at CLS. So CCN ought to be almost literally tied here. (Since it seems reasonable to assume that only 1-3 people or so from Chicago go to PW.)

Edit: From their website looks like 2 Chicago 'law clerks,' 10 from NYU, 13 from CLS. Actually surprised the NYU number is that low but I suppose people who did SAs at Paul Weiss tend to try to clerk, so that's probably part of it.

By looking at this data alone, you're right there is no "CCP", it's actually P>CCN. But the NLJ250 chart isn't the only source of data. The bottom line is while he was probably Penn > NYU trolling, that is actually supported if you were to only look at this data.