How Much More Should UPenn be worth over Michigan and UVA?

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How big of a difference in scholarship money is Penn worth vs. UVA and Michigan?

No Difference
27
30%
$5,000.00/year
9
10%
$10,000.00/year
10
11%
$15,000.00/year
11
12%
$20,000.00/year
10
11%
$25,000.00/year
22
25%
 
Total votes: 89

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JamesDean1955
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How Much More Should UPenn be worth over Michigan and UVA?

Postby JamesDean1955 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:24 pm

I am wondering what everything thinks regarding UPenn vs. UVA and Michigan for NYC biglaw: UPenn historically outperforms UVA and Michigan in biglaw, and comes very close with respect to A3 clerkships. I know TLS consensus is that these are peer schools, but that was pre-ITE. UPenn has significantly outperformed the other schools ITE.

So, how big of a difference in scholarship money do y'all think Penn is worth over UVA and Mich, for someone who wants NYC Biglaw? Also take into account that COL is probably $4,000.00/year more expensive for Philly than the other two, so you can essentially add $4k onto these amounts.

I made a poll, but please let me know why you decide the way you do. Apologies in advance if this is beating a dead horse. I only went up to $25k because, well, more than that would probably be insane.

EDIT: All amounts are per year...if you didn't know and want to change your vote I enabled it. A lot of people have done the poll but very few responses. Let's hear some thoughts! I feel like a lot of others will be in this situation this cycle.
Last edited by JamesDean1955 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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megagnarley
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Re: How Much More Should UPenn be worth over Michigan and UVA?

Postby megagnarley » Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:49 pm

JamesDean1955 wrote:I am wondering what everything thinks regarding UPenn vs. UVA and Michigan for NYC biglaw: UPenn historically outperforms UVA and Michigan in biglaw, and comes very close with respect to A3 clerkships. I know TLS consensus is that these are peer schools, but that was pre-ITE. UPenn has significantly outperformed the other schools ITE.

So, how big of a difference in scholarship money do y'all think Penn is worth over UVA and Mich, for someone who wants NYC Biglaw? Also take into account that COL is probably $4,000.00/year more expensive for Philly than the other two, so you can essentially add $4k onto these amounts.

I made a poll, but please let me know why you decide the way you do. Apologies in advance if this is beating a dead horse. I only went up to $25k because, well, more than that would probably be insane.


Everything I've heard about UVA's grading and OCI process scares me.

Mich slipped big last year, which my be an anomaly, but still you're much better off median at Penn than Mich even on a good year it seems.

In the scheme of life 25k is small.

edit: moral opposition to spellcheck prepost

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JamesDean1955
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Re: How Much More Should UPenn be worth over Michigan and UVA?

Postby JamesDean1955 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:24 pm

megagnarley wrote:
JamesDean1955 wrote:I am wondering what everything thinks regarding UPenn vs. UVA and Michigan for NYC biglaw: UPenn historically outperforms UVA and Michigan in biglaw, and comes very close with respect to A3 clerkships. I know TLS consensus is that these are peer schools, but that was pre-ITE. UPenn has significantly outperformed the other schools ITE.

So, how big of a difference in scholarship money do y'all think Penn is worth over UVA and Mich, for someone who wants NYC Biglaw? Also take into account that COL is probably $4,000.00/year more expensive for Philly than the other two, so you can essentially add $4k onto these amounts.

I made a poll, but please let me know why you decide the way you do. Apologies in advance if this is beating a dead horse. I only went up to $25k because, well, more than that would probably be insane.


Everything I've heard about UVA's grading and OCI process scares me.

Mich slipped big last year, which my be an anomaly, but still you're much better off median at Penn than Mich even on a good year it seems.

In the scheme of life 25k is small.

edit: moral opposition to spellcheck prepost


I just realized that my post probably wasn't very clear; these are per year scholarship differences. You don't really think Penn is worth $75k total + interest over UVA and Mich right? I mean, either you didn't know these where per year, or that's some serious Penn trolling.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, editing the OP.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: How Much More Should UPenn be worth over Michigan and UVA?

Postby Dr. Dre » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:28 pm

UVA; I would need at least 50k difference

Michigan would be 35 k difference

OP, go to Upenn. Great job opportunities after you graduate. And you'll be going to Philly

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JamesDean1955
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Re: How Much More Should UPenn be worth over Michigan and UVA?

Postby JamesDean1955 » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:31 pm

Dr. Dre wrote:UVA; I would need at least 50k difference

Michigan would be 35 k difference

OP, go to Upenn. Great job opportunities after you graduate. And you'll be going to Philly


So, you would take Penn at sticker vs. UVA full ride? These amounts are per year, and with tuition around $50k/year, that's essentially what you're saying.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: How Much More Should UPenn be worth over Michigan and UVA?

Postby Dr. Dre » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:40 pm

JamesDean1955 wrote:
Dr. Dre wrote:UVA; I would need at least 50k difference

Michigan would be 35 k difference

OP, go to Upenn. Great job opportunities after you graduate. And you'll be going to Philly


So, you would take Penn at sticker vs. UVA full ride? These amounts are per year, and with tuition around $50k/year, that's essentially what you're saying.



sorry what I meant was I would prefer to graduate from Upenn with 50k debt instead of UVA without that 50k. And I would prefer Upenn with 35k in debt than to go to Michigan without that 35 k in debt.

No I would not go to Upenn and pay sticker than UVA on full.

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megagnarley
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Re: How Much More Should UPenn be worth over Michigan and UVA?

Postby megagnarley » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:03 pm

JamesDean1955 wrote:
megagnarley wrote:
JamesDean1955 wrote:I am wondering what everything thinks regarding UPenn vs. UVA and Michigan for NYC biglaw: UPenn historically outperforms UVA and Michigan in biglaw, and comes very close with respect to A3 clerkships. I know TLS consensus is that these are peer schools, but that was pre-ITE. UPenn has significantly outperformed the other schools ITE.

So, how big of a difference in scholarship money do y'all think Penn is worth over UVA and Mich, for someone who wants NYC Biglaw? Also take into account that COL is probably $4,000.00/year more expensive for Philly than the other two, so you can essentially add $4k onto these amounts.

I made a poll, but please let me know why you decide the way you do. Apologies in advance if this is beating a dead horse. I only went up to $25k because, well, more than that would probably be insane.


Everything I've heard about UVA's grading and OCI process scares me.

Mich slipped big last year, which my be an anomaly, but still you're much better off median at Penn than Mich even on a good year it seems.

In the scheme of life 25k is small.

edit: moral opposition to spellcheck prepost


I just realized that my post probably wasn't very clear; these are per year scholarship differences. You don't really think Penn is worth $75k total + interest over UVA and Mich right? I mean, either you didn't know these where per year, or that's some serious Penn trolling.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, editing the OP.


Duly noted.

In that case, absolutely not. At 30k overall you have an easy choice but once you startin getting up to 40/50k more overall it gets much murkier.

My bid would be at 30k. I'd take Penn with a scholly of 50k total over UVA at 80k but if UVA bumped it up it might be hard to say no.

Numbers are arbitrary. Just an example.

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Rahviveh
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Re: How Much More Should UPenn be worth over Michigan and UVA?

Postby Rahviveh » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:48 pm

I prefer Penn as a school and its location over the other two but I don't think I'd pay more for it just on that. There still is no consensus on TLS that these schools are anything but peers when it comes to employment

This is mostly a personal decision based on whether you are convinced outcomes are better at P than M or V

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: How Much More Should UPenn be worth over Michigan and UVA?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:07 am

Whatever the amount is, it seems to rising:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... ctive=true

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: How Much More Should UPenn be worth over Michigan and UVA?

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:17 am

Assuming that sticker price for all three is $150K worth of tuition debt, and assuming that I would pay that much for a school, I would take Penn at sticker tuition debt over Michigan/UVA unless Michigan/UVA tuition debt would be half that amount.

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Dr. Dre
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Re: How Much More Should UPenn be worth over Michigan and UVA?

Postby Dr. Dre » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:11 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Assuming that sticker price for all three is $150K worth of tuition debt, and assuming that I would pay that much for a school, I would take Penn at sticker tuition debt over Michigan/UVA unless Michigan/UVA tuition debt would be half that amount.


+1

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Rahviveh
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Re: How Much More Should UPenn be worth over Michigan and UVA?

Postby Rahviveh » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:32 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Assuming that sticker price for all three is $150K worth of tuition debt, and assuming that I would pay that much for a school, I would take Penn at sticker tuition debt over Michigan/UVA unless Michigan/UVA tuition debt would be half that amount.

Coincidentally, doing back of the envelope calculations 75k-90k is probably the high end of the value of an extra 10-15% chance of big law (and the exit options it provides, assuming they are high paying) over a ten year period

But that's only if you accept that Penn's superior placement isn't due to self selection

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Nelson
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Re: How Much More Should UPenn be worth over Michigan and UVA?

Postby Nelson » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:05 am

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Assuming that sticker price for all three is $150K worth of tuition debt, and assuming that I would pay that much for a school, I would take Penn at sticker tuition debt over Michigan/UVA unless Michigan/UVA tuition debt would be half that amount.

Dude just stop.

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iMisto
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Re: How Much More Should UPenn be worth over Michigan and UVA?

Postby iMisto » Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:08 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:Whatever the amount is, it seems to rising:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... ctive=true

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JamesDean1955
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Re: How Much More Should UPenn be worth over Michigan and UVA?

Postby JamesDean1955 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:00 pm

Nelson wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:Assuming that sticker price for all three is $150K worth of tuition debt, and assuming that I would pay that much for a school, I would take Penn at sticker tuition debt over Michigan/UVA unless Michigan/UVA tuition debt would be half that amount.

Dude just stop.


Nelson you're a current student, you don't agree with this? I know Aberzombie is all about the CCP...

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JamesDean1955
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Re: How Much More Should UPenn be worth over Michigan and UVA?

Postby JamesDean1955 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:20 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:I prefer Penn as a school and its location over the other two but I don't think I'd pay more for it just on that. There still is no consensus on TLS that these schools are anything but peers when it comes to employment

This is mostly a personal decision based on whether you are convinced outcomes are better at P than M or V


Ok in all seriousness (no trolling here), I really do not understand this statement. On the one hand, TLS loves to pull out LST statistics anytime there is an argument about how bad/how good the economy is. TLS loves stats. And yet, the statistics for recent employment outcomes for Penn vs. UVA and Michigan clearly show Penn is a league ahead in A3 clerkships + biglaw (keep in mind these are the only two outcomes I'm gunning for). Before you said there is a 10-15% difference, but that is understating the past two years.

C/O 2011 Biglaw Difference between Schools

Penn - Michigan: Penn higher by 25.45%
Penn - UVA: Penn higher by 17.14%

C/O 2012 Biglaw Difference between Schools

Penn - Michigan: Penn higher by 21.97%
Penn - UVA: Penn higher by 20.07%

If you include A3 clerkships, UVA and Michigan usually place 1% more of their classes into these clerkships (per the ABA data), and the above numbers would drop by 1%.

So, to conclude, Penn gives you an additional 20% at the two most desirable outcomes (the two you would NEED to service a high debtload).

I don't see how these schools are peers anymore.

EDIT: And I know that placement data /=/ placement ability. But I believe the placement data UNDERSTATES placement ability. For instance, the NLJ250 numbers above don't take into account all 101+ attorney firms paying market, or high end botique firms. And if anything, people self-select OUT of biglaw. You can't very well say the states overstate placement ability, because that's like saying a bunch of students just got really lucky in their interviews and got jobs they wouldn't normally get.

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banjo
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Re: How Much More Should UPenn be worth over Michigan and UVA?

Postby banjo » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:38 pm

It's worth keeping in mind that about 20% of Penn's class stays in Pennsylvania. These students might have Philly or Pittsburgh ties that get them regional biglaw jobs. I picked 15k/yr.

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JamesDean1955
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Re: How Much More Should UPenn be worth over Michigan and UVA?

Postby JamesDean1955 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:47 pm

banjo wrote:It's worth keeping in mind that about 20% of Penn's class stays in Pennsylvania. These students might have Philly or Pittsburgh ties that get them regional biglaw jobs. I picked 15k/yr.


This is a good point, hadn't thought of that. At this point, I'm thinking Penn is worth somewhere between a $10k - $15k difference over UVA and Mich. Unfortunately given my scholarship offers, if will matter if that difference is $10k or $15k because they are going to come out very close (I don't have the luxury of having an easy decision here, i.e. one school did not offer way more than the other).

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Re: How Much More Should UPenn be worth over Michigan and UVA?

Postby Rahviveh » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:49 pm

JamesDean1955 wrote:
banjo wrote:It's worth keeping in mind that about 20% of Penn's class stays in Pennsylvania. These students might have Philly or Pittsburgh ties that get them regional biglaw jobs. I picked 15k/yr.


This is a good point, hadn't thought of that. At this point, I'm thinking Penn is worth somewhere between a $10k - $15k difference over UVA and Mich. Unfortunately given my scholarship offers, if will matter if that difference is $10k or $15k because they are going to come out very close (I don't have the luxury of having an easy decision here, i.e. one school did not offer way more than the other).

The way UVA has been throwing around money a lot of people will be making this decision. I do not think Penn will be willing to straight match those scholarships.

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Re: How Much More Should UPenn be worth over Michigan and UVA?

Postby BSC » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:52 pm

Looks like I'll be choosing between these two. IDK how helpful the poll results are since the majority are at the two extremes.

What do you think the answer is for someone interested in DC or southeastern biglaw and with ties to the southeast? (me)
Penn doesn't place a lot into these regions... but who knows about its ability to place there..

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Re: How Much More Should UPenn be worth over Michigan and UVA?

Postby 20130312 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:54 pm

banjo wrote:It's worth keeping in mind that about 20% of Penn's class stays in Pennsylvania. These students might have Philly or Pittsburgh ties that get them regional biglaw jobs.

And... that doesn't apply to Michigan or UVA? Not sure how this is a distinguishing factor.

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Nelson
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Re: How Much More Should UPenn be worth over Michigan and UVA?

Postby Nelson » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:54 pm

JamesDean1955 wrote:
Nelson wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:Assuming that sticker price for all three is $150K worth of tuition debt, and assuming that I would pay that much for a school, I would take Penn at sticker tuition debt over Michigan/UVA unless Michigan/UVA tuition debt would be half that amount.

Dude just stop.


Nelson you're a current student, you don't agree with this? I know Aberzombie is all about the CCP...

Because I don't have a deluded view of my own school? MVP are placement peers. Firms are going to have similar cutoffs at all three. TLS is home to way too many horrible exaggerations from small samples.

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JamesDean1955
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Re: How Much More Should UPenn be worth over Michigan and UVA?

Postby JamesDean1955 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:57 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
JamesDean1955 wrote:
banjo wrote:It's worth keeping in mind that about 20% of Penn's class stays in Pennsylvania. These students might have Philly or Pittsburgh ties that get them regional biglaw jobs. I picked 15k/yr.


This is a good point, hadn't thought of that. At this point, I'm thinking Penn is worth somewhere between a $10k - $15k difference over UVA and Mich. Unfortunately given my scholarship offers, if will matter if that difference is $10k or $15k because they are going to come out very close (I don't have the luxury of having an easy decision here, i.e. one school did not offer way more than the other).

The way UVA has been throwing around money a lot of people will be making this decision. I do not think Penn will be willing to straight match those scholarships.


If my UVA scholarship was my largest, my choice would definitely be easier (bc I want to remain on the east coast, unless I get off the Chicago waitlist and then idk...). But while most people seem to have a larger UVA scholarship, my largest is unfortunately Michigan. The location difference and lack of being near multiple big markets makes this even harder. So my decision may come down to a $10k-$20k difference between Michigan scholarship > Penn = UVA scholarships.

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JamesDean1955
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Re: How Much More Should UPenn be worth over Michigan and UVA?

Postby JamesDean1955 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:59 pm

Nelson wrote:
JamesDean1955 wrote:
Nelson wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:Assuming that sticker price for all three is $150K worth of tuition debt, and assuming that I would pay that much for a school, I would take Penn at sticker tuition debt over Michigan/UVA unless Michigan/UVA tuition debt would be half that amount.

Dude just stop.


Nelson you're a current student, you don't agree with this? I know Aberzombie is all about the CCP...

Because I don't have a deluded view of my own school? MVP are placement peers. Firms are going to have similar cutoffs at all three. TLS is home to way too many horrible exaggerations from small samples.


So from your anecdotal experiences as a current student, you really haven't seen any comparative advantage at Penn compared to Michigan and UVA students?

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banjo
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Re: How Much More Should UPenn be worth over Michigan and UVA?

Postby banjo » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:21 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:
banjo wrote:It's worth keeping in mind that about 20% of Penn's class stays in Pennsylvania. These students might have Philly or Pittsburgh ties that get them regional biglaw jobs.

And... that doesn't apply to Michigan or UVA? Not sure how this is a distinguishing factor.


A lot of these Philly/Pittsburgh people might choose Penn over MVB. I've also heard that Penn is regarded extremely highly in Philly, to the point where they might hire deep into the class.
Last edited by banjo on Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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