In a position I don't want to be in. Willamette/Lewis&Clark

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What should I do?

Attend Lewis & Clark at sticker
6
14%
Attend Willamette w/at least $18k scholly
2
5%
Forget law school and have another baby
35
81%
 
Total votes: 43

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bobbypin
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In a position I don't want to be in. Willamette/Lewis&Clark

Postby bobbypin » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:33 am

158/3.31
Accepted to Lewis and Clark (no scholarship). My first choice due to proximity to where I currently live and want to practice.
Accepted to Willamette ($12k w/2.9 stip & $6k w/2.0 stip, both annual) This is an hour south of me.

I own a home in Portland, have 2 teenagers, I'm 39, and want to practice criminal law either as a PD or ADA. State? Federal? I don't care.

When I contacted L&C, I was told they have promised all of their money already but will reallocate as students with offers withdraw. I was told I wouldn't know anything until late March or late April. My plan is to contact Willamette to see if they have any more $$ to offer. But what I want is for L&C to give me $15k a year.

Someone on TLS responded to another poster suggesting they take all the loan amount since they could IBR. That seems insane to me.

I looked at the employment numbers for all of the Oregon schools, they are abysmal. I don't want to think I am a special snowflake but this is the only thing I have wanted to do in my life and I figure if I can eek out a $45k annual salary, I'll be happy.

What would you do?

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Crowing
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Re: In a position I don't want to be in. Willamette/Lewis&Clark

Postby Crowing » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:36 am

bobbypin wrote:What would you do?


Retake LSAT. Reapply next cycle. Go to a better school/get better $ offers.

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bobbypin
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Re: In a position I don't want to be in. Willamette/Lewis&Clark

Postby bobbypin » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:42 am

Crowing wrote:
bobbypin wrote:What would you do?


Retake LSAT. Reapply next cycle. Go to a better school/get better $ offers.


It is either these schools or I don't go. My family lives here. We can't move.
Does retaking and waiting another year really make sense considering my age?
Especially if I would be reapplying to Lewis and Clark?
Oregon is a small market. There aren't many HLS grads working here.

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: In a position I don't want to be in. Willamette/Lewis&Clark

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:47 am

bobbypin wrote:
Crowing wrote:
bobbypin wrote:What would you do?


Retake LSAT. Reapply next cycle. Go to a better school/get better $ offers.


It is either these schools or I don't go. My family lives here. We can't move.
Does retaking and waiting another year really make sense considering my age?
Especially if I would be reapplying to Lewis and Clark?
Oregon is a small market. There aren't many HLS grads working here.


It absolutely makes sense. A few more lsat points could mean tens of thousands of dollars. Especially from those schools. Especially given your situation, debt will suck doubly I would think so take on as little as possible.

Also, your 'tar makes me smile.

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Crowing
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Re: In a position I don't want to be in. Willamette/Lewis&Clark

Postby Crowing » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:50 am

bobbypin wrote:
Crowing wrote:
bobbypin wrote:What would you do?


Retake LSAT. Reapply next cycle. Go to a better school/get better $ offers.


It is either these schools or I don't go. My family lives here. We can't move.
Does retaking and waiting another year really make sense considering my age?
Especially if I would be reapplying to Lewis and Clark?
Oregon is a small market. There aren't many HLS grads working here.


That's fine. You mentioned being concerned about cost. Retaking and getting a better score can still be very beneficial because you can reapply with better numbers and get a bigger scholarship from those same schools.

Everybody has the sentiment of not wanting to delay their career goals for another year, but considering how big of a difference it can make financially, I still think retaking is pretty much universally a good decision for people who still have plenty of room to improve on the LSAT. Sure you might be 39, but do you really think it will make much of a difference if you're 43 instead of 42 when you graduate?

rad lulz
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Re: In a position I don't want to be in. Willamette/Lewis&Clark

Postby rad lulz » Thu Feb 21, 2013 3:51 am

Retake or don't go due to bad job prospects

K Rock
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Re: In a position I don't want to be in. Willamette/Lewis&Clark

Postby K Rock » Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:36 am

I agree with retake advice. Also, next year apply to a few more schools, even if you have no intention of going to them, so if those schools offer you scholarship money you can use that as a bargaining chip with L&C.

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hephaestus
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Re: In a position I don't want to be in. Willamette/Lewis&Clark

Postby hephaestus » Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:06 am

rad lulz wrote:Retake or don't go due to bad job prospects

timbs4339
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Re: In a position I don't want to be in. Willamette/Lewis&Clark

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:49 am

Do you have any work experience in a PD or DA office? These jobs are usually very competitive and require some demonstrated interest.

The people saying "just do IBR bro" either work for law schools or are trolls.

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romothesavior
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Re: In a position I don't want to be in. Willamette/Lewis&Clark

Postby romothesavior » Thu Feb 21, 2013 9:57 am

You've waited this long, wait one more year. I wouldn't recommend a 22 year old take out that kind of debt for these schools, and debt is a much bigger concern for you given your age. Burdening your family with debt and/or spending big bucks on a questionable degree is not wise.

For information on employment data, go to Law School Transparency and look up the information for these schools. They're expensive and risky.

Take another year, retake, and do it for cheap. Good luck!

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Re: In a position I don't want to be in. Willamette/Lewis&Clark

Postby BigZuck » Thu Feb 21, 2013 10:18 am

Given your numbers, geographical restrictions, and current offers you are unfortunately, in the immortal words of Mr. Pancakes, "disqualified" from attending law school. Way too risky to have a horrible debt burden from poor schools, especially for someone in your position. It's bad enough when 22 year olds want to make a choice that has a very real chance of ruining your life. But the fact that you have a family makes that choice even more hellacious.

But there is hope and that can be found in retaking the LSAT and potentially reapplying if your numbers warrant it. I'm old too and I put off for a year, I know you can do it. And this site is a great resource for improving that LSAT. I would start preping now for June.

timbs4339
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Re: In a position I don't want to be in. Willamette/Lewis&Clark

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:28 pm

The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?

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somewhatwayward
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Re: In a position I don't want to be in. Willamette/Lewis&Clark

Postby somewhatwayward » Thu Feb 21, 2013 1:43 pm

The only way it makes sense to go to any school in OR is for free. Completely free. This probably means retaking the LSAT, which you could do in June and then go back to L&C and Willamette and tell them that now that you are into the 160s, you won't go without much more money. Then keep playing them off each other until you get a full ride. If there are stips, DROP OUT IF STIPS ARE NOT MET AFTER FIRST/SECOND YEAR. Also, if you do improve your score in June, don't be afraid to go to schools and ask to apply at that point. Trust me, schools are going to be desperate this cycle, and it would not surprise me at all if schools allow people to apply basically up til schools starts. Basically it is a students' market so don't fuck up your life and your kids' life by not maximizing advantage. The best thing would be to retake in June and/or October and reapply with higher numbers at the beginning of the cycle. If you are willing to start at 39, why not 40? There's really no difference there. One thing I can tell you unequivocally, though: do not take either of your current choices at the price they cost. They are not worth it, period. You have other people depending on you, so you need to be even more responsible than the 22-year-old special snowflakes that litter this subforum with their Drexel w 18K/year v. Seton Hall at sticker.

Lastly, what is it about law specifically that makes you want to do it so badly? Another option is to try to figure out a career that would have whatever aspect of law you like in it but wouldn't cost so much time and money to pursue.

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magp90
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Re: In a position I don't want to be in. Willamette/Lewis&Clark

Postby magp90 » Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:04 pm

If you could really dedicate some time to studying, you might be able to take the LSAT in June and get either one of the schools to reconsider their scholarship offer. Happens all the time. However, it would require you to deposit at one of them as a way of securing a spot, but it may allow you to get more money out of one or both of them without waiting another year.

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Re: In a position I don't want to be in. Willamette/Lewis&Clark

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu Feb 21, 2013 6:59 pm

bobbypin wrote:I don't want to think I am a special snowflake but this is the only thing I have wanted to do in my life

Why? Honest question. Because if you're not sure whether you want to be a prosecutor or a public defender, you may already be at a disadvantage to the people you'll be competing with for the very few jobs in those positions. Most people who end up successfully doing that kind of thing these days know what they want to do and why they want to do it.

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Re: In a position I don't want to be in. Willamette/Lewis&Clark

Postby sidhesadie » Thu Feb 21, 2013 8:53 pm

There is also extremely limited DA hiring around here. If moving from your current home is an issue, a number of the DA's around here (I know Linn and Multnomah cty for sure, don't know who else) require their ADA's to live in-county. So, if moving to another Oregon county is not an option, you are probably even more limited. So I'd think really hard about whether defense is really an option, and if so, are you prepared to hang a shingle on it, because the public defender is also pretty competitive.

Most people want to do one or the other, (prosecute or defend) so you might think about what exactly it is that you think is appealing and see if there is some other career that might be interesting for you that has more hiring options.

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bobbypin
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Re: In a position I don't want to be in. Willamette/Lewis&Clark

Postby bobbypin » Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:39 am

I have a strong preference for PD but know that PD/DA are two sides of the same coin.
I live in Clackamas County but was unaware of the residency requirements in Multnomah. One of my college professors is a Clackamas County ADA, a graduate from Willamette. His advice was to go to whatever Oregon law school was the cheapest.

Why practice law? I want to be in a courtroom. I want to question witnesses, and argue a case in front of a jury.
I cannot do that as a paralegal.

I lean towards public defense because I know that our justice system would collapse if defendants did not have adequate representation and held the prosecution's feet to the fire to prove the defendant committed the crime. When I was a teenager, I wanted to be a DA to "put bad guys in jail". After studying constitutional and criminal law in undergrad for my paralegal certificate, I learned that our system is a balancing act. We need to have smart, hard-working people on both sides.

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Re: In a position I don't want to be in. Willamette/Lewis&Clark

Postby PRgradBYU » Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:47 am

John_rizzy_rawls wrote:
bobbypin wrote:
Crowing wrote:
bobbypin wrote:What would you do?


Retake LSAT. Reapply next cycle. Go to a better school/get better $ offers.


It is either these schools or I don't go. My family lives here. We can't move.
Does retaking and waiting another year really make sense considering my age?
Especially if I would be reapplying to Lewis and Clark?
Oregon is a small market. There aren't many HLS grads working here.


It absolutely makes sense. A few more lsat points could mean tens of thousands of dollars. Especially from those schools. Especially given your situation, debt will suck doubly I would think so take on as little as possible.

Also, your 'tar makes me smile.


Listen to this guy, OP. If you so much as hit the mid-160s, you're looking at some good Lewis & Clark money. I've never known of anybody who absolutely could not retake; it's just an excuse used by people who don't want to put the work into it. It sucks (trust me, I did it), but it will be totally worth it.

rad lulz
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Re: In a position I don't want to be in. Willamette/Lewis&Clark

Postby rad lulz » Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:48 am

bobbypin wrote:I lean towards public defense because I know that our justice system would collapse if defendants did not have adequate representation and held the prosecution's feet to the fire to prove the defendant committed the crime. When I was a teenager, I wanted to be a DA to "put bad guys in jail". After studying constitutional and criminal law in undergrad for my paralegal certificate, I learned that our system is a balancing act. We need to have smart, hard-working people on both sides.

Brah, in theory this is how it's supposed to work/feel, but in practice you're gonna be dealing with a group of people who are mostly morons, don't appreciate you, and don't understand what you can and cannot do for them. Most of these cases will be "justice on the cheap" as you work with equally slammed DAs to plea out the vast majority of these randos as fast as they come in your door.

This is coming from someone who actually really likes criminal defense work. I'd try to intern for a PDs office before law school if I were you.

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bobbypin
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Re: In a position I don't want to be in. Willamette/Lewis&Clark

Postby bobbypin » Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:13 am

rad lulz wrote:
bobbypin wrote:I lean towards public defense because I know that our justice system would collapse if defendants did not have adequate representation and held the prosecution's feet to the fire to prove the defendant committed the crime. When I was a teenager, I wanted to be a DA to "put bad guys in jail". After studying constitutional and criminal law in undergrad for my paralegal certificate, I learned that our system is a balancing act. We need to have smart, hard-working people on both sides.

Brah, in theory this is how it's supposed to work/feel, but in practice you're gonna be dealing with a group of people who are mostly morons, don't appreciate you, and don't understand what you can and cannot do for them. Most of these cases will be "justice on the cheap" as you work with equally slammed DAs to plea out the vast majority of these randos as fast as they come in your door.

This is coming from someone who actually really likes criminal defense work. I'd try to intern for a PDs office before law school if I were you.


I know the realities are I'll be working with/for people who don't appreciate me and may even think I am working against them. I don't have a pollyanna view of the crap I'll be dealing with.
I just don't have a passion for bankruptcy or wills/trusts. And have no big law dreams. There is no big law in Portland.

PRgradBYU wrote:
Listen to this guy, OP. If you so much as hit the mid-160s, you're looking at some good Lewis & Clark money. I've never known of anybody who absolutely could not retake; it's just an excuse used by people who don't want to put the work into it. It sucks (trust me, I did it), but it will be totally worth it.


I know I can retake. Fuck, I just didn't want to. Dusted off my Manhattan books. Goddamn LR.
I have taken the LSAT twice. Oct 12 - 156, Dec 12 - 158...... June 13 - 170!

Fuck, fuck, fuck.

rad lulz
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Re: In a position I don't want to be in. Willamette/Lewis&Clark

Postby rad lulz » Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:15 am

You're making the right choice brej

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gaud
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Re: In a position I don't want to be in. Willamette/Lewis&Clark

Postby gaud » Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:16 am

rad lulz wrote:You're making the right choice brej

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CFprez
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Re: In a position I don't want to be in. Willamette/Lewis&Clark

Postby CFprez » Fri Feb 22, 2013 1:35 am

bobbypin wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
bobbypin wrote:I lean towards public defense because I know that our justice system would collapse if defendants did not have adequate representation and held the prosecution's feet to the fire to prove the defendant committed the crime. When I was a teenager, I wanted to be a DA to "put bad guys in jail". After studying constitutional and criminal law in undergrad for my paralegal certificate, I learned that our system is a balancing act. We need to have smart, hard-working people on both sides.

Brah, in theory this is how it's supposed to work/feel, but in practice you're gonna be dealing with a group of people who are mostly morons, don't appreciate you, and don't understand what you can and cannot do for them. Most of these cases will be "justice on the cheap" as you work with equally slammed DAs to plea out the vast majority of these randos as fast as they come in your door.

This is coming from someone who actually really likes criminal defense work. I'd try to intern for a PDs office before law school if I were you.


I know the realities are I'll be working with/for people who don't appreciate me and may even think I am working against them. I don't have a pollyanna view of the crap I'll be dealing with.
I just don't have a passion for bankruptcy or wills/trusts. And have no big law dreams. There is no big law in Portland.

PRgradBYU wrote:
Listen to this guy, OP. If you so much as hit the mid-160s, you're looking at some good Lewis & Clark money. I've never known of anybody who absolutely could not retake; it's just an excuse used by people who don't want to put the work into it. It sucks (trust me, I did it), but it will be totally worth it.


I know I can retake. Fuck, I just didn't want to. Dusted off my Manhattan books. Goddamn LR.
I have taken the LSAT twice. Oct 12 - 156, Dec 12 - 158...... June 13 - 170!

Fuck, fuck, fuck.


You seem like you are in a really stable situation. Since law schools applicants are down 19-20% this year and they have been going down every year I don't really see a situation where applicants rise next year. Just IMO cultural lag of conventional wisdom takes some time to trickle down- first from the front pages of the New York Times, then to your uncle, cousin, whatever. Because of this I don't see a rise in applicants next year because people are still hearing for the first time how bad the law school market is all the time this year. Maybe L % C will offer you money this spring though.

Retake in June, or maybe wait it out one more cycle. You aren't like the typical undergrad saying "what else will I do with myself".

Ti Malice
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Re: In a position I don't want to be in. Willamette/Lewis&Clark

Postby Ti Malice » Fri Feb 22, 2013 2:55 am

bobbypin wrote:
rad lulz wrote:
bobbypin wrote:I lean towards public defense because I know that our justice system would collapse if defendants did not have adequate representation and held the prosecution's feet to the fire to prove the defendant committed the crime. When I was a teenager, I wanted to be a DA to "put bad guys in jail". After studying constitutional and criminal law in undergrad for my paralegal certificate, I learned that our system is a balancing act. We need to have smart, hard-working people on both sides.

Brah, in theory this is how it's supposed to work/feel, but in practice you're gonna be dealing with a group of people who are mostly morons, don't appreciate you, and don't understand what you can and cannot do for them. Most of these cases will be "justice on the cheap" as you work with equally slammed DAs to plea out the vast majority of these randos as fast as they come in your door.

This is coming from someone who actually really likes criminal defense work. I'd try to intern for a PDs office before law school if I were you.


I know the realities are I'll be working with/for people who don't appreciate me and may even think I am working against them. I don't have a pollyanna view of the crap I'll be dealing with.
I just don't have a passion for bankruptcy or wills/trusts. And have no big law dreams. There is no big law in Portland.

PRgradBYU wrote:
Listen to this guy, OP. If you so much as hit the mid-160s, you're looking at some good Lewis & Clark money. I've never known of anybody who absolutely could not retake; it's just an excuse used by people who don't want to put the work into it. It sucks (trust me, I did it), but it will be totally worth it.


I know I can retake. Fuck, I just didn't want to. Dusted off my Manhattan books. Goddamn LR.
I have taken the LSAT twice. Oct 12 - 156, Dec 12 - 158...... June 13 - 170!

Fuck, fuck, fuck.


I know it sucks, but you're making the smart choice. Do everything you can to get that 170. If you're not regularly testing a couple of points above your desired score by the time of the June test, wait until October. Don't waste that third and final (until October 2014) retake.

Apply broadly to L&C's peers. Even if you only want to attend L&C, you'll want multiple scholarship offers that you can use to play the schools off of one another.

PRgradBYU
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Re: In a position I don't want to be in. Willamette/Lewis&Clark

Postby PRgradBYU » Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:00 pm

bobbypin wrote:I know I can retake. Fuck, I just didn't want to. Dusted off my Manhattan books. Goddamn LR.
I have taken the LSAT twice. Oct 12 - 156, Dec 12 - 158...... June 13 - 170!


You're actually in a good position, because LR is one of the sections (along with LG) you can actually improve substantially. I recommend using the PowerScore LR Bible. It'll help open your eyes and train you to attack the questions via pattern recognition.

At least you're not struggling with RC like I was... RC is the reason I didn't break into the 170s and I'll forever hate myself for it.




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