Nova Southeastern?

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hephaestus
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Re: Nova Southeastern?

Postby hephaestus » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:58 pm

gatorgirl2012 wrote:The legal market in south florida is huge, not that it isn't in other places. I just think people that aren't from south florida don't realize how huge "Miami" really is, both in territory (Miami, West Palm, Ft Lauderdale) and population too of course. There are tons of old people, immigrants, real estate activity, international business/trade in what is collectively known as "south florida," all of which require legal expertise.

Like I said, I misspoke--using absolutes is bad. But in all honesty, these employment stats don't surprise me too much.

Its a market that got slaughtered by the crash, however.

timbs4339
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Re: Nova Southeastern?

Postby timbs4339 » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:13 pm

gatorgirl2012 wrote:The legal market in south florida is huge, not that it isn't in other places. I just think people that aren't from south florida don't realize how huge "Miami" really is, both in territory (Miami, West Palm, Ft Lauderdale) and population too of course. There are tons of old people, immigrants, real estate activity, international business/trade in what is collectively known as "south florida," all of which require legal expertise.

Like I said, I misspoke--using absolutes is bad. But in all honesty, these employment stats don't surprise me too much.


It doesn't surprise us because there are tons of "huge" metro areas with no entry-level jobs for lawyers because the legal hiring market doesn't work like that. Chicago, Philly, SF are three off the top of my head. The problem with your assumption is that 1) large metro areas tend to have lots of law schools that feed into them, 2) large metro areas tend to have a lot of people who leave to go to law school and want to come back. Thus it evens out.

Immigrants have no money to pay kids to do legal work. Old people are not going to hire 25 year old kids or they have their legal work done by people where they come from. These international corporations don't seem to be using Florida firms for their work or else Miami biglaw would hire more than 30 summers each year.

In order to have a robust ENTRY-LEVEL hiring market, you need 1) lots of biglaw firms hiring summers, 2) lots of government organizations or public defender systems. Miami has neither. The small and midsize firms just don't have the capacity to hire and train new people.

Half or 2/3 of FL law schools should be closed outright and their "jobs" absorbed by the other schools. Florida, FL State, and maybe Miami should be all that remain.

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Yukos
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Re: Nova Southeastern?

Postby Yukos » Tue Feb 19, 2013 11:38 pm

timbs4339 wrote:Half or 2/3 of FL law schools should be closed outright and their "jobs" absorbed by the other schools. Florida, FL State, and maybe Miami Nova should be all that remain.


Haven't you been reading the thread?

Aroldis105
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Re: Nova Southeastern?

Postby Aroldis105 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:37 am

SUPERNOVA!!!!

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gatorgirl2012
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Re: Nova Southeastern?

Postby gatorgirl2012 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:39 am

timbs4339 wrote: Immigrants have no money to pay kids to do legal work. Old people are not going to hire 25 year old kids or they have their legal work done by people where they come from. These international corporations don't seem to be using Florida firms for their work or else Miami biglaw would hire more than 30 summers each year.


Increasingly, multinational corporations are basing their LatAm headquarters in South Florida and seeking consulting/legal expertise from firms....in south florida. This is a fact. It's a growing trend and perhaps this summer, YOU can be the 30th SA at Greenberg Traurig.

This is useless to the OP btws. And I agree, Nova has received too much attention on TLS today...
Last edited by gatorgirl2012 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:42 am, edited 1 time in total.

Mal Reynolds
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Re: Nova Southeastern?

Postby Mal Reynolds » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:40 am

romothesavior wrote:And now, we have resolved the eternal question.


RIP TLS megathread era. You will be missed.

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romothesavior
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Re: Nova Southeastern?

Postby romothesavior » Wed Feb 20, 2013 2:04 am

gatorgirl2012 wrote:The legal market in south florida is huge, not that it isn't in other places.

No, not really, at least not for entry-level jobs. The legal market in Florida, including south Florida, is one of the most oversaturated places in the entire country.

So yes, like timbs said, while the Miami metro area may be big and have a lot of legal needs, the market for law students is very poor.

gatorgirl2012 wrote:Increasingly, multinational corporations are basing their LatAm headquarters in South Florida and seeking consulting/legal expertise from firms....in south florida. This is a fact. It's a growing trend and perhaps this summer, YOU can be the 30th SA at Greenberg Traurig.

Are you saying GT has ~30 SAs in Miami a year? Was that a joke that I didn't understand? NALP says they had 5 in 2012. A cursory review of the data for the firms listed on NALP shows that the average big firm has 3-5 SAs. Are there even 30 SA jobs total in Miami?

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gatorgirl2012
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Re: Nova Southeastern?

Postby gatorgirl2012 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 8:33 am

Again growing. my point in mentioning GT is that it's a large firm, and not the only one in the growing market of South florida. those same numbers you referred to indicate they took in more SAs in 2011 than the summer before--2012 isn't even accounted for. I'm done with this, considering Miami big law most likely wouldn't even look to Nova for SAs. This threads's officially off the grid lol

timbs4339
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Re: Nova Southeastern?

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:22 am

romothesavior wrote:
gatorgirl2012 wrote:The legal market in south florida is huge, not that it isn't in other places.

No, not really, at least not for entry-level jobs. The legal market in Florida, including south Florida, is one of the most oversaturated places in the entire country.

So yes, like timbs said, while the Miami metro area may be big and have a lot of legal needs, the market for law students is very poor.

gatorgirl2012 wrote:Increasingly, multinational corporations are basing their LatAm headquarters in South Florida and seeking consulting/legal expertise from firms....in south florida. This is a fact. It's a growing trend and perhaps this summer, YOU can be the 30th SA at Greenberg Traurig.

Are you saying GT has ~30 SAs in Miami a year? Was that a joke that I didn't understand? NALP says they had 5 in 2012. A cursory review of the data for the firms listed on NALP shows that the average big firm has 3-5 SAs. Are there even 30 SA jobs total in Miami?


Romo is correct. I would be surprised if there were more than 50 biglaw SA spots in the Miami area.

IB4 but all the jerbs are in 10-50 person firms here.

Gatorgirl, every firm took more summers than 2011 because 2010 they were coming out of the bloodbath that was the 2009 hiring season. That was true in New York, Chicago, DC, and most other cities. Regardless of what the deans at UF have told you, more people =/= more jobs for you, especially if those same firms are getting most of the work done in New York with the local firm doing derivative stuff.

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romothesavior
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Re: Nova Southeastern?

Postby romothesavior » Wed Feb 20, 2013 9:43 am

First a south Florida job is "guaranteed" from Nova, now GT is on their way to 30 person summer classes, which might be more SA jobs than the entire city had in 2012. And that increase in SAs over the past few years isn't because the economy is slowly recovering from the worst downturn in legal history, its because the legal market is growing in Miami, don't you see?

Glad we have an abundance of OLs around here to keep us 3Ls in check.

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gatorgirl2012
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Re: Nova Southeastern?

Postby gatorgirl2012 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:09 am

I'm not trying to keep y'all in check, I just don't appreciate the fatalistic advice given on this forum--t14 or bust. I think most people that are smart enough to do their homework, thereby arriving at this site seeking advice to make sense of it all, realize and accept the fact that getting a job out of law school is no easy task and in no way guaranteed.

I stand by my initial remarks, that if you want to stay in S. Florida, minimize debt, and play your cards right, Nova isn't a bad choice. Have I applied there? No. Will I? No. I don't want to practice here because being born and raised here, I'm sick of it lol

And quite frankly, your tearing apart my argument is petty and useless to this OP. just because I didn't state why the market is growing here doesn't mean I didn't arrive at that conclusion without the acknowledgment that we're in a recovery. This is a forum, not a journal. I have a job and as 3L, shouldn't you be occupying your time more productively? Perhaps by tackling the presumably doomed job search? Sorry to be catty, I think it's warranted.

timbs4339
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Re: Nova Southeastern?

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:27 am

gatorgirl2012 wrote:I'm not trying to keep y'all in check, I just don't appreciate the fatalistic advice given on this forum--t14 or bust. I think most people that are smart enough to do their homework, thereby arriving at this site seeking advice to make sense of it all, realize and accept the fact that getting a job out of law school is no easy task and in no way guaranteed.

I stand by my initial remarks, that if you want to stay in S. Florida, minimize debt, and play your cards right, Nova isn't a bad choice. Have I applied there? No. Will I? No. I don't want to practice here because being born and raised here, I'm sick of it lol

And quite frankly, your tearing apart my argument is petty and useless to this OP. just because I didn't state why the market is growing here doesn't mean I didn't arrive at that conclusion without the acknowledgment that we're in a recovery. This is a forum, not a journal. I have a job and as 3L, shouldn't you be occupying your time more productively? Perhaps by tackling the presumably doomed job search? Sorry to be catty, I think it's warranted.


Yes, and while researching Florida law school they come to this forum and see you spouting BS like "a ton of international corporations are doing business here now so there are plenty of jobs" and "there are a lot of old people and immigrants in South Florida so there's a lot of jobs." Without someone to come along and point out the massive holes in that argument, this might actually lead someone to take out a lot of debt to go into law school in a saturated market with no evidence the market will get better. And that's wrong, and you know it.

I really don't care if you are a 0L or 3L, your statements are poorly reasoned and I'm going to tell you why they are poorly reasoned. Right now the best you can say about Nova is that if you go on a full scholly and don't get a job you won't be up the creek.

-Signed: T6 graduate with a job.

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Ruxin1
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Re: Nova Southeastern?

Postby Ruxin1 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 10:41 am

gatorgirl2012 wrote:Again growing. my point in mentioning GT is that it's a large firm, and not the only one in the growing market of South florida. those same numbers you referred to indicate they took in more SAs in 2011 than the summer before--2012 isn't even accounted for. I'm done with this, considering Miami big law most likely wouldn't even look to Nova for SAs. This threads's officially off the grid lol


GT Miami almost always takes 1 each from UF & FSU -- so you are competing for 3 spots against T14/Emory/Vandy, anyone else with ties to Miami...so ya...

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gatorgirl2012
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Re: Nova Southeastern?

Postby gatorgirl2012 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:08 am

timbs4339 wrote: T6 graduate with a job


Congrats dude. Sincerely.

dabbadon8
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Re: Nova Southeastern?

Postby dabbadon8 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:43 am

Local school's shot at FL biglaw is a joke. Have fun competing with above median t14 kids from sofla. Bilzin hired 1 UM sa, akerman had no local students, gt requires top 1 percent from uf/fsu. Going to a local school with expectations of anything but sofla shitlaw is unreasonable.

clone22
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Re: Nova Southeastern?

Postby clone22 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:49 am

gatorgirl2012 wrote:I'm not trying to keep y'all in check, I just don't appreciate the fatalistic advice given on this forum--t14 or bust. I think most people that are smart enough to do their homework, thereby arriving at this site seeking advice to make sense of it all, realize and accept the fact that getting a job out of law school is no easy task and in no way guaranteed.

I stand by my initial remarks, that if you want to stay in S. Florida, minimize debt, and play your cards right, Nova isn't a bad choice. Have I applied there? No. Will I? No. I don't want to practice here because being born and raised here, I'm sick of it lol

And quite frankly, your tearing apart my argument is petty and useless to this OP. just because I didn't state why the market is growing here doesn't mean I didn't arrive at that conclusion without the acknowledgment that we're in a recovery. This is a forum, not a journal. I have a job and as 3L, shouldn't you be occupying your time more productively? Perhaps by tackling the presumably doomed job search? Sorry to be catty, I think it's warranted.


I don't care how you play your cards, Nova is a terrible choice. Their tuition and COA will still put you at or above 100K of debt after 3 years, and the job prospects are just terrible. Nova doesn't even hold OCI for non-LR people until February of 2L. Very few, if any people will get a job paying more than 60K first year coming out of Nova. Florida "big law" and midlaw are cumulatively hiring about 30 people this year. The number has not gone up from the 2011 number. I've interviewed with almost every major firm in south florida this past fall. People who were getting callbacks were top 5% of UF and FSU, and then the T14 kids. As much as I hate to say it, the T14 kids are eating the lunches of all the kids that are going to Florida schools, at least in terms of high paying jobs. Akerman had a reception this summer for T14 kids that wanted to come back to Florida to start work. There were at least 25-30 people. They are the people that will be getting big law in Florida. I hope this doesn't offend, but when Florida firms have a choice between 10% T14 and top 5% UF/FSU, they're gonna go with the T14 kid because it makes the firm look better.

The Nova/UM kids don't even stand a chance.

edit: if you can go to UM/nova for absolutely free (with no stips) and you're not gunning to do biglaw/in house work, go for it. If you have a high paying job lined up for after law school, go for it (I know at least a couple of people going to Nova whose parents are senior partners at decent places, for those kids Nova is a decent choice).

If you don't have family connections that will hook you up and your choices are nova or UM, sit out a year, cram for the lsat, and reapply next year.

best of luck

Also in terms of legal market not coming back to pre-2007 highs:
http://biglaw.org/news/6933/us-summer-a ... mbers-drop

while I love florida and it is amazing, outside of the t14 you will have an extremely difficult time finding a job that starts north of 60K a year.
Last edited by clone22 on Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

jeffyl00b
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Re: Nova Southeastern?

Postby jeffyl00b » Wed Feb 20, 2013 11:58 am

When I graduated from university pre-2010 in Florida, our economy was much worse than today. We had a terrorist attack. Did you have many classmates in your class who actually experienced lay-off notices from their part-time jobs and career fairs cancelled? Was the job market even great in 2007/2008?
How can one claim that the statistics are different? If anything, those are the folks who would've been laid off.

Just sigh

usfvictor
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Re: Nova Southeastern?

Postby usfvictor » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:00 pm

dabbadon8 wrote:Local school's shot at FL biglaw is a joke. Have fun competing with above median t14 kids from sofla. Bilzin hired 1 UM sa, akerman had no local students, gt requires top 1 percent from uf/fsu. Going to a local school with expectations of anything but sofla shitlaw biglaw is unreasonable.


FIFY

clone22
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Re: Nova Southeastern?

Postby clone22 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:02 pm

usfvictor wrote:
dabbadon8 wrote:Local school's shot at FL biglaw is a joke. Have fun competing with above median t14 kids from sofla. Bilzin hired 1 UM sa, akerman had no local students, gt requires top 1 percent from uf/fsu. Going to a local school with expectations of anything but sofla shitlaw biglaw is unreasonable.


FIFY

midlaw, inhouse, and prestigious PI are equally unreasonable. So is that correction really necessary?

usfvictor
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Re: Nova Southeastern?

Postby usfvictor » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:02 pm

jeffyl00b wrote:When I graduated from university pre-2010 in Florida, our economy was much worse than today. We had a terrorist attack. Did you have many classmates in your class who actually experienced lay-off notices from their part-time jobs and career fairs cancelled? Was the job market even great in 2007/2008?
How can one claim that the statistics are different? If anything, those are the folks who would've been laid off.

Just sigh



WHAT? I'm sorry but your message in the context of this Nova conversation made no sense

usfvictor
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Re: Nova Southeastern?

Postby usfvictor » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:05 pm

clone22 wrote:
usfvictor wrote:
dabbadon8 wrote:Local school's shot at FL biglaw is a joke. Have fun competing with above median t14 kids from sofla. Bilzin hired 1 UM sa, akerman had no local students, gt requires top 1 percent from uf/fsu. Going to a local school with expectations of anything but sofla shitlaw biglaw is unreasonable.


FIFY

midlaw, inhouse, and prestigious PI are equally unreasonable. So is that correction really necessary?



yes. they can open their own shop or move from sofla :D .

clone22
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Re: Nova Southeastern?

Postby clone22 » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:07 pm

usfvictor wrote:
clone22 wrote:
usfvictor wrote:
dabbadon8 wrote:Local school's shot at FL biglaw is a joke. Have fun competing with above median t14 kids from sofla. Bilzin hired 1 UM sa, akerman had no local students, gt requires top 1 percent from uf/fsu. Going to a local school with expectations of anything but sofla shitlaw biglaw is unreasonable.


FIFY

midlaw, inhouse, and prestigious PI are equally unreasonable. So is that correction really necessary?



yes. they can open their own shop or move from sofla :D .

well played, although some would argue hanging up your own shingle is similar to shitlaw.

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romothesavior
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Re: Nova Southeastern?

Postby romothesavior » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:14 pm

gatorgirl2012 wrote:I'm not trying to keep y'all in check, I just don't appreciate the fatalistic advice given on this forum--t14 or bust.

No one ITT is T14 or bust. Total straw man.

Look, you seem like a nice girl and well-intentioned, but you're wrong for all the reasons timbs mentioned.
And bad advice isn't well taken around here because of all the reasons timbs mentioned. Too many people have gone to law school for flimsy and illogical reasons.

Anyways, good luck to you.

usfvictor
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Re: Nova Southeastern?

Postby usfvictor » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:17 pm

yes. they can open their own shop or move from sofla :D .

well played, although some would argue hanging up your own shingle is similar to shitlaw.[/quote]


Tis true. But if all else's fails..

jeffyl00b
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Re: Nova Southeastern?

Postby jeffyl00b » Wed Feb 20, 2013 12:22 pm

usfvictor wrote:
jeffyl00b wrote:When I graduated from university pre-2010 in Florida, our economy was much worse than today. We had a terrorist attack. Did you have many classmates in your class who actually experienced lay-off notices from their part-time jobs and career fairs cancelled? Was the job market even great in 2007/2008?
How can one claim that the statistics are different? If anything, those are the folks who would've been laid off.

Just sigh



WHAT? I'm sorry but your message in the context of this Nova conversation made no sense


Read the thread, you'll find the bullet point list I'm responding to, which is in this thread. Once you go through the thread, it's a short one, it might even be on page 1, you may see it clearly since I assume you did well on the LSAT and can find the key words. Hint 2010.

Before some of you youngin's start talking about the economy, might want to consider that some of us have first hand experience before claiming that
A) the economy was great
or my favorite that I've seen on TLS once before B) Once you have had a job, you'll always be able to get one quick and easy.
it doesn't work that way, and it's dishonest to your classmates.

My apologies for not hitting the quote button in the first place, but I just assumed the natural curiosity before the trigger happy reply wouldn't have been at issue.




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