Brooklyn Law School (41K) vs. St. John's (Full)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Brooklyn (pay $8976) vs. St. John's (free)

Brooklyn
18
67%
St. John's
9
33%
 
Total votes: 27

pwnyc127
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Brooklyn Law School (41K) vs. St. John's (Full)

Postby pwnyc127 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:33 pm

Brooklyn or St. John's?

-Carswell Scholarship from Brooklyn worth 41K- tuition cost is $49,976. So I'd be paying $8,976 per year.
-Stipulations: Maintain rank in top 80% of class
Full Tuition at St. John's.
-Stipulations: Maintain rank in top 40% of class to retain full value of scholarship. Top 50% of class retain 75% of scholarship. Top 65% of class maintain 50% of scholarship.


Holding all other factors constant, based on tuition and employment statistics, which would you choose and why?
Last edited by pwnyc127 on Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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nickb285
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Re: Brooklyn Law School (41K) vs. St. John's (Full)

Postby nickb285 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 4:41 pm

Both of those schools are drastically inflating their employment numbers:
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=brooklyn
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=stjohns

Neither of these schools are good ideas, and the credited response is to retake the LSAT and apply to better schools. If you refuse to do that you're making a huge mistake, but the lower stips on the Brooklyn scholarship means that it's probably a less terrible idea. Not a good idea, mind you, but a less terrible idea.

timbs4339
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Re: Brooklyn Law School (41K) vs. St. John's (Full)

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:11 pm

You will likely be paying more than 2,300 per year because of tuition increases of a few thousand per year. So think around $10,000 in tuition total. Still, Brooklyn is not a terrible move here unless you want biglaw or an equivalently competitive job.

Where are you getting that tuition for Brooklyn is 43K? It's 49K on the website.

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nickb285
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Re: Brooklyn Law School (41K) vs. St. John's (Full)

Postby nickb285 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:20 pm

timbs4339 wrote:You will likely be paying more than 2,300 per year because of tuition increases of a few thousand per year. So think around $10,000 in tuition total.


And don't forget COL and other expenses. Unless OP has tons of savings or family money those will still be loaned. LST puts indirect costs for Brooklyn at $24,368/year. Assuming that's fairly accurate, that means that if you're right about tuition increases OP will wind up owing about $85k plus interest for a degree with the job prospects listed above.

Ti Malice
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Re: Brooklyn Law School (41K) vs. St. John's (Full)

Postby Ti Malice » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:21 pm

Neither is a good idea, but between your two options, BLS is better. If you were to lose some or all of your scholarship at either, the only smart thing to do would be to drop out.

pwnyc127
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Re: Brooklyn Law School (41K) vs. St. John's (Full)

Postby pwnyc127 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:16 am

Right, the $43K figure was from another website, they must have raised the tuition price since that was posted. I have about $20K in the stock market, after that its all loans. I live close enough to commute to either of them, so room and board is not a factor.

We've all heard the "re-take the LSAT and go to Harvard" argument plenty of times, however based on my current situation, if I'm going to do law school its now or never. If I was to retake the LSAT, I wouldn't be able to re-apply for this cycle. Also another piece of information: I'm planning on going for a JD/MBA joint degree. Brooklyn has a joint program with Baruch, which is a prestigious business school. St. John's has a business school that's more geared toward undergraduate studies.

PRgradBYU
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Re: Brooklyn Law School (41K) vs. St. John's (Full)

Postby PRgradBYU » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:22 am

pwnyc127 wrote:Right, the $43K figure was from another website, they must have raised the tuition price since that was posted. I have about $20K in the stock market, after that its all loans. I live close enough to commute to either of them, so room and board is not a factor.

We've all heard the "re-take the LSAT and go to Harvard" argument plenty of times, however based on my current situation, if I'm going to do law school its now or never. If I was to retake the LSAT, I wouldn't be able to re-apply for this cycle. Also another piece of information: I'm planning on going for a JD/MBA joint degree. Brooklyn has a joint program with Baruch, which is a prestigious business school. St. John's has a business school that's more geared toward undergraduate studies.


Law school should never be a "now or never" situation. If you really want to go and make it a worthwhile investment of your time and money, retake the LSAT. What do you plan on doing with your JD/MBA degree?

pwnyc127
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Re: Brooklyn Law School (41K) vs. St. John's (Full)

Postby pwnyc127 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:46 am

Hopefully corporate advisement/ in house corporate counsel. I'm keeping my options open though. If I don't start law school this year, I'll probably just get the MBA and continue working. The scholarship offers seem pretty generous, even if I don't land a prestigious big law job, I won't be buried in debt. Plenty of attorneys that I know and work with in New York regard St. John's and Brooklyn as great schools; they made a career and a name for themselves without attending T14.

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RhymesLikeDimes
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Re: Brooklyn Law School (41K) vs. St. John's (Full)

Postby RhymesLikeDimes » Sat Feb 16, 2013 8:34 am

10 or 20 years ago they might have been; this is 2013. New York is an incredibly competitive market that contains 2 of the T6, and is the destination of choice for much of the T14. Planning on getting a job there with anything lower than a Fordham degree is a fool's errand.

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dingbat
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Re: Brooklyn Law School (41K) vs. St. John's (Full)

Postby dingbat » Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:01 am

pwnyc127 wrote:Hopefully corporate advisement/ in house corporate counsel. I'm keeping my options open though. If I don't start law school this year, I'll probably just get the MBA and continue working. The scholarship offers seem pretty generous, even if I don't land a prestigious big law job, I won't be buried in debt. Plenty of attorneys that I know and work with in New York regard St. John's and Brooklyn as great schools; they made a career and a name for themselves without attending T14.

Let's start with the fact that getting a decent job coming out of either of those schools is unlikely - but far harder from St. Johns. Also, keep in mind that many companies don't hire lawyers out of law school - they prefer to hire lawyers with experience (and there are enough people trying to escape the drudgery of biglaw)
The scholarships may seem generous but look at the stipulations. At Brooklyn, it's a pretty low bar, and, to be honest, if you can't maintain it you should drop out. St. John's is a different beast altogether: staying in the top 40% is doable, but there's a pretty good chance you'll lose at least some of your scholarship, and if you only retain 75% after your first year, it'll be as expensive as brooklyn.

Honestly, paying $30k total for a Brooklyn law degree is pretty good. St. John's for free is not bad, but there's a decent chance it'll cost more than Brooklyn, which it is not worth.


As an aside, please don't base your decision on what attorneys managed to do 10 or 20 years ago. The economy was good and the legal market was robust (not to mention the fact that tuition was low). Back then it was a lot easier for a lawyer out of one of those schools to get a decent job, it's a lot harder to do so now.
I'm a bit older and while I wasn't in the legal field at the time, I can tell you that jobs were easy to come by in the '90s, all you had to do was ask (more or less). In the early 2000s, the boom times were good and firms had to go out of their way to find good candidates. Today, thats' not the case.

NYstate
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Re: Brooklyn Law School (41K) vs. St. John's (Full)

Postby NYstate » Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:20 am

Top 80% stipulation? I have not seen that one before. Run, run fast away from these schools. Go with your other plan.

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dingbat
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Re: Brooklyn Law School (41K) vs. St. John's (Full)

Postby dingbat » Sat Feb 16, 2013 9:48 am

NYstate wrote:Top 80% stipulation? I have not seen that one before. Run, run fast away from these schools. Go with your other plan.

top 80%, not top 20%. That's not bad considering that bottom half of the class can't find jobs anyway

timbs4339
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Re: Brooklyn Law School (41K) vs. St. John's (Full)

Postby timbs4339 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:52 am

Unfortunately anything in-house is going to require biglaw or biglaw-equivalent, and that it is really not a good idea to go anything but T14 or T30 with a large scholly. I can count the number of corporations I know who hire in-house out of law school on one hand and they hire out of the top schools.

I think most honest Brooklyn and St. John's students or grads will tell you that their ability to pursue careers where they represent corporate clients is very limited, and not by choice or self-selection. They just aren't that type of school. If you'd said you wanted to be a public defender, to do personal injury litigation, or be a DA, then that would be a different story.

Basically, I would only attend one of these schools 1) on a large scholarship AND, 2) if you really wanted to be a lawyer, and didn't care what kind of work you did or who you represented.

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hephaestus
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Re: Brooklyn Law School (41K) vs. St. John's (Full)

Postby hephaestus » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:59 am

What's the reason you can't wait a year? Just curious, because there are genuinely good reasons.
Also don't do a JD MBA from Brooklyn. It's is not a prestigious B school.

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dingbat
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Re: Brooklyn Law School (41K) vs. St. John's (Full)

Postby dingbat » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:04 am

ImNoScar wrote:What's the reason you can't wait a year? Just curious, because there are genuinely good reasons.
Also
don't do a JD MBAdegree from Brooklyn. It's is not a prestigious B school.

fixed

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northwood
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Re: Brooklyn Law School (41K) vs. St. John's (Full)

Postby northwood » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:09 am

dont forget to add in cost of living. So while Brooklyn is about 10k/ year, you need to figure living expenses.

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hephaestus
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Re: Brooklyn Law School (41K) vs. St. John's (Full)

Postby hephaestus » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:11 am

Agreed Dingbat. OP shouldn't pick Brookyn. But on the high probability OP won't retake and insists on going to one of these schools, Brooklyn is somewhat defensible. However, the Brookyn MBA is a very bad idea.
And good point. OP, can you live at home?

pwnyc127
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Re: Brooklyn Law School (41K) vs. St. John's (Full)

Postby pwnyc127 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:29 am

Like I said earlier, room and board is not an factor, I'm within commuting distance to either of these schools. If I was to retake the LSAT in June and score >166, what would the chances be of getting accepted off the wait list at Fordham? I realize that June is late in the application process and Fordham's seats will probably already be filled.

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northwood
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Re: Brooklyn Law School (41K) vs. St. John's (Full)

Postby northwood » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:30 am

if you retake in june and get a better score, i would personally reapply next cycle

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hephaestus
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Re: Brooklyn Law School (41K) vs. St. John's (Full)

Postby hephaestus » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:38 am

pwnyc127 wrote:Like I said earlier, room and board is not an factor, I'm within commuting distance to either of these schools. If I was to retake the LSAT in June and score >166, what would the chances be of getting accepted off the wait list at Fordham? I realize that June is late in the application process and Fordham's seats will probably already be filled.

There could be a chance. I'd definitely try in June though.

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dingbat
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Re: Brooklyn Law School (41K) vs. St. John's (Full)

Postby dingbat » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:38 am

pwnyc127 wrote:Like I said earlier, room and board is not an factor, I'm within commuting distance to either of these schools. If I was to retake the LSAT in June and score >166, what would the chances be of getting accepted off the wait list at Fordham? I realize that June is late in the application process and Fordham's seats will probably already be filled.

It depends on your GPA. If you're on their waitlist, the June LSAT can be taken into consideration and last year people got pulled off the waitlist in July, possibly in August.
Make sure that you get your application in before their deadline, though

pwnyc127
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Re: Brooklyn Law School (41K) vs. St. John's (Full)

Postby pwnyc127 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:42 am

I'm currently waitlisted at Fordham. 3.52 overall GPA, 4.0 GPA in the last two and a half years of college.

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dingbat
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Re: Brooklyn Law School (41K) vs. St. John's (Full)

Postby dingbat » Sat Feb 16, 2013 11:53 am

pwnyc127 wrote:I'm currently waitlisted at Fordham. 3.52 overall GPA, 4.0 GPA in the last two and a half years of college.

If you can get a 166+ you'll have good chance of getting in

PRgradBYU
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Re: Brooklyn Law School (41K) vs. St. John's (Full)

Postby PRgradBYU » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:22 pm

dingbat wrote:
pwnyc127 wrote:I'm currently waitlisted at Fordham. 3.52 overall GPA, 4.0 GPA in the last two and a half years of college.

If you can get a 166+ you'll have good chance of getting in


+1. Fordham is the lowest ranked school you should attend in NY. (Even then, you're taking a big gamble... you'll have to finish in the top 5 or 10% to make it worth your while.)

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dingbat
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Re: Brooklyn Law School (41K) vs. St. John's (Full)

Postby dingbat » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:35 pm

PRgradBYU wrote:
dingbat wrote:
pwnyc127 wrote:I'm currently waitlisted at Fordham. 3.52 overall GPA, 4.0 GPA in the last two and a half years of college.

If you can get a 166+ you'll have good chance of getting in


+1. Fordham is the lowest ranked school you should attend in NY. (Even then, you're taking a big gamble... you'll have to finish in the top 5 or 10%20%-30% to make it worth your while.)
Fixed (and arguably still conservative)




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