NYLS v. St. John's v. Seton Hall v. Drexel v. Pace

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romothesavior
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Re: NYLS v. St. John's v. Seton Hall v. Drexel v. Pace

Postby romothesavior » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:57 pm

stillwater wrote:
reverendt wrote:The only one of those schools that I would consider halfway respectable is Seton Hall (I gather they provide a decent education and they used to place decently in NJ, although their reputation for shamelessly inflating their placement statistics and section stacking is hard to overlook.)
Seton Hall is a dump. To use respectable in connection with such a shitmill does disfavor upon the English language.

That's rich. :lol:

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Re: NYLS v. St. John's v. Seton Hall v. Drexel v. Pace

Postby tarp » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:27 pm

I'm a Drexel alum and I enjoyed my three years there. Given the lowest cost of attendance, plus even lower living costs in Philly, and the IP law concentration they offer I would seriously consider attending Drexel. I know a few students from the 2012 graduating class who are working for GSK in Philly now, though of course your mileage may vary. The 2.98 stip is a bit onerous, you will need to be on top of your game to avoid the risk of losing scholarship. My stip was lower, I think 2.67 or something like that. I graduated with almost a 3.5 GPA near the top of my class so I had no worries about losing the scholly. I worked part-time and helped raise a kid too, so it's not like I studied 24/7. Just study hard and you'll be fine.

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Re: NYLS v. St. John's v. Seton Hall v. Drexel v. Pace

Postby cinephile » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:40 pm

tarp wrote:I'm a Drexel alum and I enjoyed my three years there. Given the lowest cost of attendance, plus even lower living costs in Philly, and the IP law concentration they offer I would seriously consider attending Drexel. I know a few students from the 2012 graduating class who are working for GSK in Philly now, though of course your mileage may vary. The 2.98 stip is a bit onerous, you will need to be on top of your game to avoid the risk of losing scholarship. My stip was lower, I think 2.67 or something like that. I graduated with almost a 3.5 GPA near the top of my class so I had no worries about losing the scholly. I worked part-time and helped raise a kid too, so it's not like I studied 24/7. Just study hard and you'll be fine.


Nonsense. Not every person can be at the top of the class, by it's very definition only the top is at the top. So while you managed to study hard and be fine, 90% of your classmates did not. What are the odds this dude is going to be a superstar like you, 10%? Not worth betting his future on.

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Re: NYLS v. St. John's v. Seton Hall v. Drexel v. Pace

Postby Ti Malice » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:42 pm

tarp wrote:I'm a Drexel alum and I enjoyed my three years there. Given the lowest cost of attendance, plus even lower living costs in Philly, and the IP law concentration they offer I would seriously consider attending Drexel. I know a few students from the 2012 graduating class who are working for GSK in Philly now, though of course your mileage may vary. The 2.98 stip is a bit onerous, you will need to be on top of your game to avoid the risk of losing scholarship. My stip was lower, I think 2.67 or something like that. I graduated with almost a 3.5 GPA near the top of my class so I had no worries about losing the scholly. I worked part-time and helped raise a kid too, so it's not like I studied 24/7. Just study hard and you'll be fine.


Left in the useful parts.

Drexel is garbage: http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=drexel.

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Re: NYLS v. St. John's v. Seton Hall v. Drexel v. Pace

Postby pianoguy7 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:00 pm

tarp wrote:I'm a Drexel alum and I enjoyed my three years there. Given the lowest cost of attendance, plus even lower living costs in Philly, and the IP law concentration they offer I would seriously consider attending Drexel. I know a few students from the 2012 graduating class who are working for GSK in Philly now, though of course your mileage may vary. The 2.98 stip is a bit onerous, you will need to be on top of your game to avoid the risk of losing scholarship. My stip was lower, I think 2.67 or something like that. I graduated with almost a 3.5 GPA near the top of my class so I had no worries about losing the scholly. I worked part-time and helped raise a kid too, so it's not like I studied 24/7. Just study hard and you'll be fine.



Thanks for the great info. This is what I was looking for, some firsthand ACTUAL knowledge. Thanks so much really appreciate it. I wasn't thrilled about the stip of 2.98/top 50%, but I had a pretty high GPA requirement for my scholarship in undergrad (not like a was majoring in basket-weaving either) and it just made me stay on top of studying.

Really thank you for the info!

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Re: NYLS v. St. John's v. Seton Hall v. Drexel v. Pace

Postby stillwater » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:02 pm

pianoguy7 wrote:
tarp wrote:I'm a Drexel alum and I enjoyed my three years there. Given the lowest cost of attendance, plus even lower living costs in Philly, and the IP law concentration they offer I would seriously consider attending Drexel. I know a few students from the 2012 graduating class who are working for GSK in Philly now, though of course your mileage may vary. The 2.98 stip is a bit onerous, you will need to be on top of your game to avoid the risk of losing scholarship. My stip was lower, I think 2.67 or something like that. I graduated with almost a 3.5 GPA near the top of my class so I had no worries about losing the scholly. I worked part-time and helped raise a kid too, so it's not like I studied 24/7. Just study hard and you'll be fine.



Thanks for the great info. This is what I was looking for, some firsthand ACTUAL knowledge. Thanks so much really appreciate it. I wasn't thrilled about the stip of 2.98/top 50%, but I had a pretty high GPA requirement for my scholarship in undergrad (not like a was majoring in basket-weaving either) and it just made me stay on top of studying.

Really thank you for the info!


Except your undergrad wasn't on a forced curve. I love when people tout this ACTUAL firsthand knowledge. Anecdotes are as useful as a cinderblock for a flotation device, they just rationalize bad decisions. Best of luck.

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Re: NYLS v. St. John's v. Seton Hall v. Drexel v. Pace

Postby pianoguy7 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:12 pm

romothesavior wrote:
pianoguy7 wrote:Also im not 12. I've got my rent covered, and I know what my expenses are. The COA is just that, the cost of attending the school

Even with your rent covered, how is that possible? The undiscounted cost of a school like Seton Hall or St. John's (excluding COL) is like 47k a year. A 15k/year scholarship, even with rent covered, still means that you're paying well over 30k (probably closer to 40k) per year for your degree. Not to mention interest if this is debt financed. Unless you aren't telling us something, you will easily be 6 figures into debt.

Look my friend, you're a biochem guy? You are obviously a pretty smart dude. Go crunch the numbers on Law School Transparency and see how bad your odds are. Go read the news articles about the droves of unemployed people coming out of these shitbox schools. You are too smart to be this stubborn. Going to one of these schools would be a terrible, terrible mistake. Either stick with your current path, retake, or don't go.


Awww shucks I'm flattered! I figured in all the fees, books, ect for my COA but it is per year not the whole shabang. I;m not going to include interest because i'm just adding a flat best guesstimate to the top. I was really looking to hear from some people who had gone to one of these schools to pick their brains a little. In hindsight I probably should have limited my question to anyone who had actually attended one of the schools. I had crunched my numbers on Law School Transparency like you said, but not for nothing numbers are just numbers, and I wanted to hear some first hand I went to blah blah school and now I'm working at/doing blah blah. I've had plenty of friends go to Harvard and Yale only to end up teaching some bullshit class in smalltown-usa. A lot of it comes down to the person. Thanks for actually responding with a real answer though.

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Re: NYLS v. St. John's v. Seton Hall v. Drexel v. Pace

Postby pianoguy7 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:16 pm

stillwater wrote:
pianoguy7 wrote:
tarp wrote:I'm a Drexel alum and I enjoyed my three years there. Given the lowest cost of attendance, plus even lower living costs in Philly, and the IP law concentration they offer I would seriously consider attending Drexel. I know a few students from the 2012 graduating class who are working for GSK in Philly now, though of course your mileage may vary. The 2.98 stip is a bit onerous, you will need to be on top of your game to avoid the risk of losing scholarship. My stip was lower, I think 2.67 or something like that. I graduated with almost a 3.5 GPA near the top of my class so I had no worries about losing the scholly. I worked part-time and helped raise a kid too, so it's not like I studied 24/7. Just study hard and you'll be fine.



Thanks for the great info. This is what I was looking for, some firsthand ACTUAL knowledge. Thanks so much really appreciate it. I wasn't thrilled about the stip of 2.98/top 50%, but I had a pretty high GPA requirement for my scholarship in undergrad (not like a was majoring in basket-weaving either) and it just made me stay on top of studying.

Really thank you for the info!


Except your undergrad wasn't on a forced curve. I love when people tout this ACTUAL firsthand knowledge. Anecdotes are as useful as a cinderblock for a flotation device, they just rationalize bad decisions. Best of luck.



Actually it was, but nice try. I'm going to apply your same thinking to your response. Assuming you aren't interested in a pharmaceutical/biotechnology law career and you don't have a biochemistry/chemistry degree then your response is simply a fun story. According to you anecdotes are as useful as a cinderblock for a flotation device, so your advice is just that.

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stillwater
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Re: NYLS v. St. John's v. Seton Hall v. Drexel v. Pace

Postby stillwater » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:19 pm

pianoguy7 wrote:
stillwater wrote:
pianoguy7 wrote:
tarp wrote:I'm a Drexel alum and I enjoyed my three years there. Given the lowest cost of attendance, plus even lower living costs in Philly, and the IP law concentration they offer I would seriously consider attending Drexel. I know a few students from the 2012 graduating class who are working for GSK in Philly now, though of course your mileage may vary. The 2.98 stip is a bit onerous, you will need to be on top of your game to avoid the risk of losing scholarship. My stip was lower, I think 2.67 or something like that. I graduated with almost a 3.5 GPA near the top of my class so I had no worries about losing the scholly. I worked part-time and helped raise a kid too, so it's not like I studied 24/7. Just study hard and you'll be fine.



Thanks for the great info. This is what I was looking for, some firsthand ACTUAL knowledge. Thanks so much really appreciate it. I wasn't thrilled about the stip of 2.98/top 50%, but I had a pretty high GPA requirement for my scholarship in undergrad (not like a was majoring in basket-weaving either) and it just made me stay on top of studying.

Really thank you for the info!


Except your undergrad wasn't on a forced curve. I love when people tout this ACTUAL firsthand knowledge. Anecdotes are as useful as a cinderblock for a flotation device, they just rationalize bad decisions. Best of luck.



Actually it was, but nice try. I'm going to apply your same thinking to your response. Assuming you aren't interested in a pharmaceutical/biotechnology law career and you don't have a biochemistry/chemistry degree then your response is simply a fun story. According to you anecdotes are as useful as a cinderblock for a flotation device, so your advice is just that.


The fact your undergrad was on a forced curve is actually extraneous. These are objectively shitty schools, look at the numbers. That is not an anecdote. Perhaps it is an aggregation of horror stories, so there's your anecdote.

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Re: NYLS v. St. John's v. Seton Hall v. Drexel v. Pace

Postby uvabro » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:25 pm

OP, don't listen to these douchebags. They all just want to kill your dreams, and are not here to help you. I care about you, as any good stranger on the internet does so while these people are all just jealous they couldn't get into Pace and want to see you make the poor choice of not getting a sure fire 160k job with your biotech degree and kick ass logic skills, I will tell you what you need to do.

It's true jobs are down, and many of these schools only put between 3% and 10% into big law. Therefore, what you need to do is enroll in all of them simultaneously. Aggregating the odds, I believe between these 5 you'll have about a 45% chance of big law which is like the same as going to NYU. When you make partner in 3 years, you'll be making millions of year so sure it will cost maybe 1 million in student loans to enroll in 5 schools simultaneously, but it's totally worth it.

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Re: NYLS v. St. John's v. Seton Hall v. Drexel v. Pace

Postby pianoguy7 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:29 pm

uvabro wrote:OP, don't listen to these douchebags. They all just want to kill your dreams, and are not here to help you. I care about you, as any good stranger on the internet does so while these people are all just jealous they couldn't get into Pace and want to see you make the poor choice of not getting a sure fire 160k job with your biotech degree and kick ass logic skills, I will tell you what you need to do.

It's true jobs are down, and many of these schools only put between 3% and 10% into big law. Therefore, what you need to do is enroll in all of them simultaneously. Aggregating the odds, I believe between these 5 you'll have about a 45% chance of big law which is like the same as going to NYU. When you make partner in 3 years, you'll be making millions of year so sure it will cost maybe 1 million in student loans to enroll in 5 schools simultaneously, but it's totally worth it.



HAHAHA perfect!!! Now that's a plan!

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Re: NYLS v. St. John's v. Seton Hall v. Drexel v. Pace

Postby goldeneye » Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:53 pm

Dude, if you have biochem, just go work in bigpharm now. You'll clear way more money as a scientist.

It makes no sense to waste 3 years to make 160k if you're lucky when you could probably bank 6 figures now.

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Re: NYLS v. St. John's v. Seton Hall v. Drexel v. Pace

Postby tarp » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:24 am

If you follow the advice of these people, only the top 14 schools are even worth attending.

I know plenty of successful lawyers who graduated from schools these people are calling "toilets."

I wonder how many of these posters actually hold a J.D. and know anything about the profession of law.

If you expect a 160k salary to be handed to you on a silver platter, then no, don't attend these schools. Jobs are not plentiful right now. If you have something else to fall back on, like a biochem degree, or some business sense, then by all means attend one of these schools if tuition is reasonable (which it is, with the scholarship offers you received).

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Re: NYLS v. St. John's v. Seton Hall v. Drexel v. Pace

Postby eweller » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:27 am

.
Last edited by eweller on Wed Jan 22, 2014 3:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: NYLS v. St. John's v. Seton Hall v. Drexel v. Pace

Postby hephaestus » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:31 am

Don't worry. Facts and statistics aren't real.

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Re: NYLS v. St. John's v. Seton Hall v. Drexel v. Pace

Postby pianoguy7 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:42 am

tarp wrote:If you follow the advice of these people, only the top 14 schools are even worth attending.

I know plenty of successful lawyers who graduated from schools these people are calling "toilets."

I wonder how many of these posters actually hold a J.D. and know anything about the profession of law.

If you expect a 160k salary to be handed to you on a silver platter, then no, don't attend these schools. Jobs are not plentiful right now. If you have something else to fall back on, like a biochem degree, or some business sense, then by all means attend one of these schools if tuition is reasonable (which it is, with the scholarship offers you received).



This is what I have gathered from lawyers I know in the NYC market as well, in fact the lawyer whom I respect the most went to a school with a terrible reputation and she is widely successful. And I have my doubts about many people on this forum anyways. I'm not looking for a big law career first year out, I'd just like to do something I enjoy which is why I don't want to work in a lab the rest of my life. I'm not looking for silver platters either.
Thanks for the advice. It seems well founded.

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Re: NYLS v. St. John's v. Seton Hall v. Drexel v. Pace

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:43 am

tarp wrote:If you follow the advice of these people, only the top 14 schools are even worth attending.

I know plenty of successful lawyers who graduated from schools these people are calling "toilets."

I wonder how many of these posters actually hold a J.D. and know anything about the profession of law.

If you expect a 160k salary to be handed to you on a silver platter, then no, don't attend these schools. Jobs are not plentiful right now. If you have something else to fall back on, like a biochem degree, or some business sense, then by all means attend one of these schools if tuition is reasonable (which it is, with the scholarship offers you received).



I have a JD from one of the most prestigious schools in the nation and I hold a desirable job. Do not attend one of these schools.

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Re: NYLS v. St. John's v. Seton Hall v. Drexel v. Pace

Postby goldeneye » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:47 am

pianoguy7 wrote:
tarp wrote:If you follow the advice of these people, only the top 14 schools are even worth attending.

I know plenty of successful lawyers who graduated from schools these people are calling "toilets."

I wonder how many of these posters actually hold a J.D. and know anything about the profession of law.

If you expect a 160k salary to be handed to you on a silver platter, then no, don't attend these schools. Jobs are not plentiful right now. If you have something else to fall back on, like a biochem degree, or some business sense, then by all means attend one of these schools if tuition is reasonable (which it is, with the scholarship offers you received).



This is what I have gathered from lawyers I know in the NYC market as well, in fact the lawyer whom I respect the most went to a school with a terrible reputation and she is widely successful. And I have my doubts about many people on this forum anyways. I'm not looking for a big law career first year out, I'd just like to do something I enjoy which is why I don't want to work in a lab the rest of my life. I'm not looking for silver platters either.
Thanks for the advice. It seems well founded.


shit man. no. the problem isn't having a degree to fall back on. it's that if you had stuck with your degree in the first place, you wouldn't have to pay of shittons of debt you could have avoided. the problem is that if you don't get a 160k paying job, chances are you get on that pays maybe 50. there's no in between.

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Re: NYLS v. St. John's v. Seton Hall v. Drexel v. Pace

Postby paintbynumbers » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:52 am

If you must...choose between some of these than
Rutgers...can get in-state tuition pretty easily, 24-25K yr for 3 years, not bad deal compared to most other schools

not sure how much CoL is in Newark, probably can get pretty cheap apt and live on a budget and not add a lot of debt + work part-time

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Re: NYLS v. St. John's v. Seton Hall v. Drexel v. Pace

Postby Ti Malice » Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:19 am

pianoguy7 wrote:
tarp wrote:I'm a Drexel alum and I enjoyed my three years there. Given the lowest cost of attendance, plus even lower living costs in Philly, and the IP law concentration they offer I would seriously consider attending Drexel. I know a few students from the 2012 graduating class who are working for GSK in Philly now, though of course your mileage may vary. The 2.98 stip is a bit onerous, you will need to be on top of your game to avoid the risk of losing scholarship. My stip was lower, I think 2.67 or something like that. I graduated with almost a 3.5 GPA near the top of my class so I had no worries about losing the scholly. I worked part-time and helped raise a kid too, so it's not like I studied 24/7. Just study hard and you'll be fine.



Thanks for the great info. This is what I was looking for, some firsthand ACTUAL knowledge. Thanks so much really appreciate it. I wasn't thrilled about the stip of 2.98/top 50%, but I had a pretty high GPA requirement for my scholarship in undergrad (not like a was majoring in basket-weaving either) and it just made me stay on top of studying.

Really thank you for the info!


I'm on to you, TLS! You're running some kind of idiot-generation algorithm to inflame the rest of us and boost traffic! Could you people be any more obvious about it? Look at Romo pretending to engage this piece of artificial unintelligence, bumping the thread. Shameless!
Last edited by Ti Malice on Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: NYLS v. St. John's v. Seton Hall v. Drexel v. Pace

Postby goldeneye » Fri Feb 15, 2013 1:22 am

That's exactly it. It's not like we rely on statistics. You'd think a scientist would be able to calculate his odds.

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Re: NYLS v. St. John's v. Seton Hall v. Drexel v. Pace

Postby RhymesLikeDimes » Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:12 am

Most established lawyers who went to TTT toilets did so long before the legal market was in the shape it is now. 10 years ago, any of those 5 schools gave you a realistic pathway to six-figure job (and without $200K+ in debt). That pathway doesn't exist for 95% of grads today. You're much better off taking the $100K you would throw away at one of these schools down to Atlantic City. The house plays much nicer than TTT law schools.

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Re: NYLS v. St. John's v. Seton Hall v. Drexel v. Pace

Postby reasonable_man » Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:21 am

pianoguy7 wrote:
tarp wrote:I'm a Drexel alum and I enjoyed my three years there. Given the lowest cost of attendance, plus even lower living costs in Philly, and the IP law concentration they offer I would seriously consider attending Drexel. I know a few students from the 2012 graduating class who are working for GSK in Philly now, though of course your mileage may vary. The 2.98 stip is a bit onerous, you will need to be on top of your game to avoid the risk of losing scholarship. My stip was lower, I think 2.67 or something like that. I graduated with almost a 3.5 GPA near the top of my class so I had no worries about losing the scholly. I worked part-time and helped raise a kid too, so it's not like I studied 24/7. Just study hard and you'll be fine.



Thanks for the great info. This is what I was looking for, some firsthand ACTUAL knowledge. Thanks so much really appreciate it. I wasn't thrilled about the stip of 2.98/top 50%, but I had a pretty high GPA requirement for my scholarship in undergrad (not like a was majoring in basket-weaving either) and it just made me stay on top of studying.

Really thank you for the info!


You want some "firsthand ACTUAL knowledge?" I'm a practicing lawyer and your choices suck. You're making a huge mistake and you should seriously reconsider what you are doing to yourself. Unless you are a biochemist working in a serious capacity - forget ever practicing "drug law" from one of these dumps, unless, of course, you mean representing oxy/meth heads for $250 a pop at the criminal court.

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Re: NYLS v. St. John's v. Seton Hall v. Drexel v. Pace

Postby NYstate » Fri Feb 15, 2013 9:31 am

timbs4339 wrote:
tarp wrote:If you follow the advice of these people, only the top 14 schools are even worth attending.

I know plenty of successful lawyers who graduated from schools these people are calling "toilets."

I wonder how many of these posters actually hold a J.D. and know anything about the profession of law.

If you expect a 160k salary to be handed to you on a silver platter, then no, don't attend these schools. Jobs are not plentiful right now. If you have something else to fall back on, like a biochem degree, or some business sense, then by all means attend one of these schools if tuition is reasonable (which it is, with the scholarship offers you received).



I have a JD from one of the most prestigious schools in the nation and I hold a desirable job. Do not attend one of these schools.


Me too.

OP, You don't understand the job market, you really really don't. Just because you know a couple of people who did well from their schools, it doesn't mean that they are representative of these schools.

NYLS was recently sued by its students for its misleading information. That case was thrown out on appeal because law students are supposed to be educated and sophisticated consumers. And that the hugely misleading and exaggerated employment and income figures promoted by the school were so obviously false that no one would have believed them.

In its decision, however, the Court of Appeals strongly suggest the conduct of the dean and others in putting up these figures were unethical. There is some movement to bring ethics complaints with the board of bar examiners against the deans and others involved in promoting false and misleading data.

Drexel is so new you should not consider it.

You have no idea what the employment market is like. Honestly, most people only want biglaw for the money for a few years to repay their debt. Few people expect to stay in biglaw and make partner. If you don't get biglaw, repaying debt will be problematic. If you want to live with it for 20 years while you are on the pay as you go plan, that is your choice. Just be prepared for this as a much more realistic possibility than getting a job practicing law (at all, much less at a salary that will allow you to repay loans) from these schools.

No one expects a 6 figure job to be handed them on a platter. Many people study for the LSAT with a huge amount of work, retake it if they don't do well, and most have worked pretty hard in undergrad. Most work hard in law school too, in order to get top grades. As you probably don't know, law school is graded on a mandatory curve so that the differences between the top and median are not that great. It isn't like science where if you know the material you will do well. It is possible to know the material and end up at median.

You need to do more research before you go to any of these schools. Some of these schools charge as much as Harvard ( or more). Please don't be taken in by them.

~sunynp

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Re: NYLS v. St. John's v. Seton Hall v. Drexel v. Pace

Postby romothesavior » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:06 pm

OP, please listen to sunyp and reasonableman. They are practicing NYC lawyers, and know this stuff better than anybody.

I know you are looking for "first-hand knowledge," and that can be a good thing when looking at different schools. But you don't have to be a graduate of one of these schools to know they're awful. There's plenty of data, plenty of stats, that make it very clear why these schools are so bad. I don't have to have to shoot myself to know it hurts; similarly, I don't have to go to NYLS or Pace to know they are garbage dumps of schools.

I am really surprised to see someone with a science background fall so hard for the "I know people who went to these schools and they're doing great" anecdotal bullshit. So what? I know a guy who won a couple hundred bucks in roulette a few weeks ago. Does that make it a good investment? And speaking of roulette, you have a better chance of doubling your money on black in roulette than you do of getting any full-time, JD-required, permanent job from most of these schools (any job, let alone a good job). Think on that. The odds are atrocious.




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