NYLS v. St. John's v. Seton Hall v. Drexel v. Pace Forum

[YankeesFan]

Areyouinsane should be required reading for the OP deciding between these schools. He had the best/most horrifying stories I have ever heard...

[romothesavior]

Ah, I misread that, but my point still stands. Dude is fresh out of the law school womb and bragging about how great successes? Seems a tad premature.

Look, its great that you're happy with what your path and what you'll be doing. A lot of solos are, and being your own boss is great. But 1) come back to us when you've actually made it, and 2) even if it works out for you, going to law school to be a solo is generally an awful idea. Most people lack the technical knowledge, financial capital, support network, and book of business to pull it off. Its a grueling and risky way to start a career, and for every solo who succeeds right out of law school, there are ten struggling to get enough parking tickets and misdemeanors to pay the rent. Not to mention that law school does a terrible job preparing you for real world practice. You seem like a good guy and I truly hope you succeed and enjoy it, but don't preach to us and spew bad advice.

[reasonable_man]

Its funny. I can probably count on one hand how many solo practitioners I've had cases with since graduation... Honestly, maybe 4 or 5 - tops. I assume thats because they don't generally get "good cases" and lets face it, I don't get to the shit-law courts al that often. But in the 4 or 5 times I have litigated cases with solos I am always startled by how inept they tend to be. Their "offices" are complete shit, their "staff" either doesn't exist or is beyond sub-par, their briefs actually suck cock (ever see paper suck a dick - its nuts), their court room skills are terrible, they dress like shit and generally are laughed at by the real attorneys. The exception is the rare solo who was an attorney at a real firm and struck out on their own (and even those guys are usually nut bags).

So congratulations Tarp on your solo practice. Welcome to the shit.

[pianoguy7]

This was clearly a mistake, posting on this forum, let's call it a lapse in judgement. With the exception of a handful of posters this was a complete shit-show. I expected some silly responses but in 5 pages perhaps 4 posts were of value. I understand that people are hurting in this economy and in the law field especially, it is not a novel idea. I was looking for opinions between the schools I listed and in pharmaceutical law however, I received the same ineffectual rants found on every hate-law-blogs. The fact that no one who works in pharmaceutical law could post is actually encouraging as they actually likely have jobs and therefore don't need to troll on website to get a sense of fulfillment.

Thanks to tarp especially for giving me some useful info, I'll certainly take it to heart.

[Ti Malice]

This was clearly a mistake, posting on this forum, let's call it a lapse in judgement. With the exception of a handful of posters this was a complete shit-show. I expected some silly responses but in 5 pages perhaps 4 posts were of value. I understand that people are hurting in this economy and in the law field especially, it is not a novel idea. I was looking for opinions between the schools I listed and in pharmaceutical law however, I received the same ineffectual rants found on every hate-law-blogs. The fact that no one who works in pharmaceutical law could post is actually encouraging as they actually likely have jobs and therefore don't need to troll on website to get a sense of fulfillment.

Thanks to tarp especially for giving me some useful info, I'll certainly take it to heart.

Hilarious. Tarp gave you by far the most useless, dangerous, wrongheaded advice on this thread. It just happened to be in line with what you wanted to hear.

All this thread needs now is a typically ridiculous post from LexLeon.

[stillwater]

This was clearly a mistake, posting on this forum, let's call it a lapse in judgement. With the exception of a handful of posters this was a complete shit-show. I expected some silly responses but in 5 pages perhaps 4 posts were of value. I understand that people are hurting in this economy and in the law field especially, it is not a novel idea. I was looking for opinions between the schools I listed and in pharmaceutical law however, I received the same ineffectual rants found on every hate-law-blogs. The fact that no one who works in pharmaceutical law could post is actually encouraging as they actually likely have jobs and therefore don't need to troll on website to get a sense of fulfillment.

Thanks to tarp especially for giving me some useful info, I'll certainly take it to heart.

tarp works in shitlaw. thats not useful or encouraging.

[somewhatwayward]

This was clearly a mistake, posting on this forum, let's call it a lapse in judgement. With the exception of a handful of posters this was a complete shit-show. I expected some silly responses but in 5 pages perhaps 4 posts were of value. I understand that people are hurting in this economy and in the law field especially, it is not a novel idea. I was looking for opinions between the schools I listed and in pharmaceutical law however, I received the same ineffectual rants found on every hate-law-blogs. The fact that no one who works in pharmaceutical law could post is actually encouraging as they actually likely have jobs and therefore don't need to troll on website to get a sense of fulfillment.

Thanks to tarp especially for giving me some useful info, I'll certainly take it to heart.

Wow, that is all you took from five pages of people trying to help you? I guess you can't say you weren't warned, though. The people posting ITT don't hate law. Most of the people posting ITT actually won law school in that they have jobs that will aid them in managing their debt. That is because they put themselves in the position of either going to a top school or going to a medium school with a big scholarship, typically by studying their asses off for the LSAT. You can do this, too. You never answered my question about how you managed to get a grad degree in biochem while not scoring higher on the LSAT. I suspect you are capable of a better LSAT, and I think you would be well-served by taking it again.

Honestly, though, if I had an advanced science degree, there is no way in hell I would be looking at law, which is a very unstable field right now, even for those of us who won the law school lottery and got big law jobs. I don't understand the appeal of moving from a relatively stable field to an unstable one, especially when you are talking about going to schools that are the very bottom rungs. Having a science degree helps your job search, but there are still 100-150 schools that firms will look to before these schools, and they all have people with science degrees at them. A couple IP people from CLS and NYU struck out this past year. Okay, I've said my piece. But don't dismiss everything we are saying bc we are bitter "haters"....we aren't (well, most of us aren't)....we are just actual law students and young lawyers who have a finger on the pulse of what is going on in legal hiring, and it is not pretty.

[romothesavior]

Shitlaw LOOMS

[suralin]

This was clearly a mistake, posting on this forum, let's call it a lapse in judgement. With the exception of a handful of posters this was a complete shit-show. I expected some silly responses but in 5 pages perhaps 4 posts were of value. I understand that people are hurting in this economy and in the law field especially, it is not a novel idea. I was looking for opinions between the schools I listed and in pharmaceutical law however, I received the same ineffectual rants found on every hate-law-blogs. The fact that no one who works in pharmaceutical law could post is actually encouraging as they actually likely have jobs and therefore don't need to troll on website to get a sense of fulfillment.

Thanks to tarp especially for giving me some useful info, I'll certainly take it to heart.

Hilarious. Tarp gave you by far the most useless, dangerous, wrongheaded advice on this thread. It just happened to be in line with what you wanted to hear.

All this thread needs now is a typically ridiculous post from LexLeon.

+1. This thread is a prime example of compartmentalization (numbers are just numbers? LOL) and confirmation bias.

[hung jury]

LOOMS

[romothesavior]

All respect for science majors is now lost.

OP, the advice you needed is all here. Hard to believe you're ignoring the data. Good luck.

[hephaestus]

Don't worry. Facts and statistics aren't real.

[dirtrida2]

I leave you all with this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpccpglnNf0

[Huey Freeman]

Just tagging this thread...I want to read through areyouinsane's stories

[rickgrimes69]

This was clearly a mistake, posting on this forum, let's call it a lapse in judgement. With the exception of a handful of posters this was a complete shit-show. I expected some silly responses but in 5 pages perhaps 4 posts were of value. I understand that people are hurting in this economy and in the law field especially, it is not a novel idea. I was looking for opinions between the schools I listed and in pharmaceutical law however, I received the same ineffectual rants found on every hate-law-blogs. The fact that no one who works in pharmaceutical law could post is actually encouraging as they actually likely have jobs and therefore don't need to troll on website to get a sense of fulfillment.

Thanks to tarp especially for giving me some useful info, I'll certainly take it to heart.

You are the equivalent of somebody smoking cigarettes to prove they don't cause cancer.

[A → B ⊨ ¬B → ¬A]

Tagged for encouraging anecdotes.

[TooOld4This]

This was clearly a mistake, posting on this forum, let's call it a lapse in judgement. With the exception of a handful of posters this was a complete shit-show. I expected some silly responses but in 5 pages perhaps 4 posts were of value. I understand that people are hurting in this economy and in the law field especially, it is not a novel idea. I was looking for opinions between the schools I listed and in pharmaceutical law however, I received the same ineffectual rants found on every hate-law-blogs. The fact that no one who works in pharmaceutical law could post is actually encouraging as they actually likely have jobs and therefore don't need to troll on website to get a sense of fulfillment.

Thanks to tarp especially for giving me some useful info, I'll certainly take it to heart.

I don't think you have any idea what pharma law is. Do you mean patent prosecution? FDA regulatory? Patent litigation? General corporate for a pharma company?

You basically have three potential employers -- drug companies, government, firms. Drug companies generally don't have very big legal departments. Small legal departments = don't hire new grads. They don't have the resources to train and there are plenty of firm refuges to hire. Working for the PTO or FDA is probably your best bet, but I don't know if they have an honors program. Even if they do, the odds of getting one of the slots are extremely small. That leaves you with firms. For actual drug related work (rather than employment or other small corporate matters) pharma companies hire top firms. The work is generally mission critical, so the firms involved are pretty much all stars. It doesn't match the Vault rankings, since those measure something different, but it is pretty much all firms that hire from top schools.

[jstr00az]

What are your thoughts?

NYLS 30/yr Top 50% COA($20,500)
St. John's 25/yr Top 40% COA($26,000)
Seton Hall 15/yr Top 75% COA($34,000)
Drexel 25/yr GPA 2.98 COA($16,500)
Pace COA($44,000)
Rutgers-Newark COA($38,706)

Before you go all nuts with your re-take chants, don't waste your time.
Planning to go into Pharmaceutical law. Open to IP or criminal; see what else strikes my fancy when I get to law school.

Thanks!

What is pharmaceutical law? And you do realize that IP and criminal are completely different. You clearly don't know what you want to do with the law degree. None of these are good options.

[uvabro]

This was clearly a mistake, posting on this forum, let's call it a lapse in judgement. With the exception of a handful of posters this was a complete shit-show. I expected some silly responses but in 5 pages perhaps 4 posts were of value. I understand that people are hurting in this economy and in the law field especially, it is not a novel idea. I was looking for opinions between the schools I listed and in pharmaceutical law however, I received the same ineffectual rants found on every hate-law-blogs. The fact that no one who works in pharmaceutical law could post is actually encouraging as they actually likely have jobs and therefore don't need to troll on website to get a sense of fulfillment.

Thanks to tarp especially for giving me some useful info, I'll certainly take it to heart.

tarp works in shitlaw. thats not useful or encouraging.

I am normally not serious, and I really don't care what happens to OP. He seems to think he's a special snowflake and while I love most people, the special snowflakes are generally less decent human beings than the unspecial snowflakes so assuming that someone else would just replace him, I care even less.

But the key thing that hasn't gotten enough attention is that the dude tarp was cum laude at one of these places, which means they did well and they're still relegated to practicing on their own with no 6-figure options. Regardless of background, you'd have to think if the dude "can sell himself", has business sense and was cum laude then that will trump the average hard science student at these places. Irrespective of data, the only supporting anecdote is if you do really damn well you'll still likely not get a job. Law isn't that much fun. I just don't get it.

Of course, OP might be #1 and that might make these different, but it seems OP thinks he's too special to ever put in the proper work ethic or approach fact patterns in the right way. Confidence is good, but the people high and mighty on their high horses generally suck at two sided analysis.

[tarp]

The lack of analytical thinking and reading comprehension skills on this forum is quite shocking for a group of wannabe lawyers.

I find it especially amusing how several people took my post which stated that I am waiting to get admitted, as meaning that I'm waiting to get admitted to law school. I actually was rolling on the floor laughing at that one, especially since my posts clearly stated that I am a Drexel Law graduate. That's clue number one that I am speaking to a bunch of 0L's with no life experience. Once you finish law school, you take the bar exam and then you must get admitted to the bar. That is the admittance to which I was referring. If you haven't already taken the LSAT, you may wish to brush up on your reading comprehension skills. Don't worry, I won't charge you for this bit of education.

To whomever assumed that my decision to open my own solo practice was due to an inability to find a job, I have a newsflash: I didn't apply for any jobs. I went to law school precisely because I could work in a field that interests me, give back to the community, and could strike out on my own and not have to work for somebody else. I have a job right now that pays the bills, in the same field I was working before I went to law school, and my goal has always been to open a solo practice. I have 8 years of business, sales, and marketing experience. I'm probably a few years older than most of you guys on this forum, and I already have a family, mortgages, investments, etc. I'm not worried about whether I will succeed or not - I know I will because I am a damn good lawyer. I don't need to work for a slimy law firm to confirm that, and I certainly won't do their bidding for them.

To those posters who refer to small firms and solos who do things like criminal defense and immigration law as "shitlaw" I say - please, do not hesitate to go and fuck yourself. Your kind of law is shitlaw. I genuinely enjoy representing real people and helping them with real problems they are facing. I didn't go to law school to assist large corporations. They are doing just fine on their own.

The number one problem in the legal industry is people who go into it purely for profit. I am not one of those.

Adios.

[TatteredDignity]

That leaves you with firms. For actual drug related work (rather than employment or other small corporate matters) pharma companies hire top firms. The work is generally mission critical, so the firms involved are pretty much all stars. It doesn't match the Vault rankings, since those measure something different, but it is pretty much all firms that hire from top schools.

Not totally true. Shook, Hardy and Bacon, for example, does a lot of high-end pharma defense work. They definitely don't hire exclusively from top schools.

[TooOld4This]

That leaves you with firms. For actual drug related work (rather than employment or other small corporate matters) pharma companies hire top firms. The work is generally mission critical, so the firms involved are pretty much all stars. It doesn't match the Vault rankings, since those measure something different, but it is pretty much all firms that hire from top schools.

Not totally true. Shook, Hardy and Bacon, for example, does a lot of high-end pharma defense work. They definitely don't hire exclusively from top schools.

True. They hire from the very solid local schools for their more off the beaten path offices (Kansas City, Tampa). This doesn't help OP though, because the schools he is looking at are still not of the type Shook generally hires from and they have only 4 people in their Philly office.

Is it impossible for OP to get a pharma job from these school? Probably not. But it will take the stars aligning in ways the OP won't be able to control for it to happen. When choosing a law school, it is pretty much always a bad idea to choose one that requires you to beat formidable odds at every single turn in order to have a chance at success.

[nick417]

This was clearly a mistake, posting on this forum, let's call it a lapse in judgement. With the exception of a handful of posters this was a complete shit-show. I expected some silly responses but in 5 pages perhaps 4 posts were of value. I understand that people are hurting in this economy and in the law field especially, it is not a novel idea. I was looking for opinions between the schools I listed and in pharmaceutical law however, I received the same ineffectual rants found on every hate-law-blogs. The fact that no one who works in pharmaceutical law could post is actually encouraging as they actually likely have jobs and therefore don't need to troll on website to get a sense of fulfillment.

Thanks to tarp especially for giving me some useful info, I'll certainly take it to heart.

Have you ever looked at reviews for products on Amazon.com or hotel reviews on Expedia? All you see is pages of negativity telling you how awful the hotel is or the product. However, if you actually buy the product or stay at the hotel, you realize that it isn't that bad. This web site is the reviews for products and hotels. ONLY people who have negative experiences post reviews. People who have good experiences usually don't post reviews. For some reason these people think they have a duty to inform everyone of their terrible experiences and trash everything. Honestly, don't waste your time responding to these negative, ignorant people. According to their logic, ALL post high school is a waste of time. I have friends who graduated with bachelors degrees who have debt and can't find jobs. You go to law school for the experiences of learning law, which is a skill, that can be used in life. I personally I enjoy law, reading case law, and arguing the merits regarding a piece of law. That is why I am going to law school. I understand you came here looking for advice, and unfortunately I do not know anything about pharmaceutical law (I do work at a Intellectual Property Firm and I know about patents and such, and pharmaceutical companies are loaded with patents). I suggest looking elsewhere for advice, all you are going to get here is angry reviews from ignorant people who think they have a duty to trash on EVERYTHING, like people who write reviews for products on Amazon.com or hotels on expedia.com.

[timbs4339]

This was clearly a mistake, posting on this forum, let's call it a lapse in judgement. With the exception of a handful of posters this was a complete shit-show. I expected some silly responses but in 5 pages perhaps 4 posts were of value. I understand that people are hurting in this economy and in the law field especially, it is not a novel idea. I was looking for opinions between the schools I listed and in pharmaceutical law however, I received the same ineffectual rants found on every hate-law-blogs. The fact that no one who works in pharmaceutical law could post is actually encouraging as they actually likely have jobs and therefore don't need to troll on website to get a sense of fulfillment.

Thanks to tarp especially for giving me some useful info, I'll certainly take it to heart.

Have you ever looked at reviews for products on Amazon.com or hotel reviews on Expedia? All you see is pages of negativity telling you how awful the hotel is or the product. However, if you actually buy the product or stay at the hotel, you realize that it isn't that bad. This web site is the reviews for products and hotels. ONLY people who have negative experiences post reviews. People who have good experiences usually don't post reviews. For some reason these people think they have a duty to inform everyone of their terrible experiences and trash everything. Honestly, don't waste your time responding to these negative, ignorant people. According to their logic, ALL post high school is a waste of time. I have friends who graduated with bachelors degrees who have debt and can't find jobs. You go to law school for the experiences of learning law, which is a skill, that can be used in life. I personally I enjoy law, reading case law, and arguing the merits regarding a piece of law. That is why I am going to law school. I understand you came here looking for advice, and unfortunately I do not know anything about pharmaceutical law (I do work at a Intellectual Property Firm and I know about patents and such, and pharmaceutical companies are loaded with patents). I suggest looking elsewhere for advice, all you are going to get here is angry reviews from ignorant people who think they have a duty to trash on EVERYTHING, like people who write reviews for products on Amazon.com or hotels on expedia.com.

Dumb dumb dumb. If you think going into 100K-200K to go to law school is comparable to whether you should go to the Holiday Inn v Best Western you're lacking in the basic kind of logic skills you'll need in practice.

And most products on Amazon are reviewed as 4.5 stars or something, or the 1 star reviews are complaining about the Kindle version being released 2 months later.

OP: You need to listen to the people ITT actually talking about pharmaceutical law instead of tarp, who is living in a dream world that's irrelevant to your original question.

[romothesavior]

Actually Nick, most of the people on this site, including those ITT, went or are going to good law schools, did fairly well, and obtained good outcomes from it. I've never understood the notion that TLS is full of bitter folks. Your analogy is terrible. Most of us are pretty pleased with how things are going. And you don't have to go to one of these schools know they have terrible, pathetic job prospects. We have these things called facts and data.

And you want firsthand info? reasonable man, who as the name would suggest is one of the most reasonable people on TLS, went to a TTT and is a pretty successful attorney. If you want firsthand knowledge of the TTT job scene and what their grads are up to, there are few better than him.

But no, keep shielding yourself from the data and deflecting all reasonable criticism because we're all just a bunch of whiny bitter people right? Just like all those writers from the NYT and WSJ writing about law school being a terrible investment. Or Brian Tamanaha and Paul Campos. Couple of bitter losers who couldn't hack it, right? Enjoy that cocoon you've enveloped yourself in.