USNWR Trolling with Yale #1. Texas Tech is place to be

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pastapplicant
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Re: USNWR Trolling with Yale #1. Texas Tech is place to be

Postby pastapplicant » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:16 am

dingbat wrote:
cahwc12 wrote:http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define+peer

Merriam-Webster wrote:1 : one that is of equal standing with another : equal ; especially : one belonging to the same societal group especially based on age, grade, or status
how are a school's students it's peers?
A school's peers are other schools.


lol i always laugh at those memes. especially when they hit the mark and the ownee backtracks to save himself.

cynthiad
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Re: USNWR Trolling with Yale #1. Texas Tech is place to be

Postby cynthiad » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:16 am

John_rizzy_rawls wrote:
cahwc12 wrote:
Employment Outcomes: 50%
Employment Rate: 22.5%
Super Lawyers: 12.5%
Partners in NLJ 200: 10%
Bar Passage: 5%

Peer Assessment: 35%
RateMyProfessors.com: 20%
Princeton Review: 15%

Cost of Attendance: 10%
Debt: 10%

Other: 5%
Diversity: 5%


Employment Outcomes: 20%
Employment rate at graduation: 4%
Employment rate at nine months after graduation: 14%
Bar passage rate: 2%

Peer Assessment: 25%
Peer assessment score: 25%

Cost of Attendance: 1.5%
Financial aid: 1.5%

Other: 53.5%
Assessment score by lawyers/judges: 15%
Median LSAT scores : 12.5%
Median undergrad GPA: 10%
Acceptance rate: 2.5%
Average instruction, library, and supporting services: 9.75%
Student/faculty ratio: 3%
Library resources: 0.75%


Which one looks more ridiculous to you? The one that rates employment outcomes at 50% or the one that factors in selectivity, admissions scores, boomer opinions and library services at 50%?


Glad someone said it. These aren't the idiotic Cooley rankings, they're a system using metrics very relevant ITE.

Although they would do well to take into account self-selecting employment data from Yale and I'd like to see what their employment breakdown is (clerkships, academia, non-JD required employment, etc).


"Super lawyers" is ridiculous. And partners in the NLJ200 isn't that helpful in determining job prospect for new grads.

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dingbat
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Re: USNWR Trolling with Yale #1. Texas Tech is place to be

Postby dingbat » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:19 am

pastapplicant wrote:
dingbat wrote:
cahwc12 wrote:http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define+peer

Merriam-Webster wrote:1 : one that is of equal standing with another : equal ; especially : one belonging to the same societal group especially based on age, grade, or status
how are a school's students it's peers?
A school's peers are other schools.


lol i always laugh at those memes. especially when they hit the mark and the ownee backtracks to save himself.

I'm pretty sure he doubled down and failed to save himself

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cahwc12
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Re: USNWR Trolling with Yale #1. Texas Tech is place to be

Postby cahwc12 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:25 am

pastapplicant wrote:
dingbat wrote:
cahwc12 wrote:http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define+peer

Merriam-Webster wrote:1 : one that is of equal standing with another : equal ; especially : one belonging to the same societal group especially based on age, grade, or status
how are a school's students it's peers?
A school's peers are other schools.


lol i always laugh at those memes. especially when they hit the mark and the ownee backtracks to save himself.


I backtracked because I disagree? I understand what peer means. I argue that "peer assessment" as USNWR applies it isn't actual peer assessment. When looking at a school, do you care more about what the other schools think of your schools, or what the students going there think of the school?

It has long been argued (LinkRemoved) that the peer assessment metric is largely a circlejerk based on the USNWR rankings, and that being a law school professor ill-equips one to make qualitative judgments about other schools. What would they base it off of? Cost of attendance and employment outcomes? Prestige? USNWR rankings? All of these things are simply derivative of other areas, and in the last case, doubly so.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: USNWR Trolling with Yale #1. Texas Tech is place to be

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:31 am

cahwc12 wrote:
pastapplicant wrote:
dingbat wrote:
cahwc12 wrote:http://lmgtfy.com/?q=define+peer

Merriam-Webster wrote:1 : one that is of equal standing with another : equal ; especially : one belonging to the same societal group especially based on age, grade, or status
how are a school's students it's peers?
A school's peers are other schools.


lol i always laugh at those memes. especially when they hit the mark and the ownee backtracks to save himself.


I backtracked because I disagree? I understand what peer means. I argue that "peer assessment" as USNWR applies it isn't actual peer assessment. When looking at a school, do you care more about what the other schools think of your schools, or what the students going there think of the school?

It has long been argued (LinkRemoved) that the peer assessment metric is largely a circlejerk based on the USNWR rankings, and that being a law school professor ill-equips one to make qualitative judgments about other schools. What would they base it off of? Cost of attendance and employment outcomes? Prestige? USNWR rankings? All of these things are simply derivative of other areas, and in the last case, doubly so.

Look, it's totally reasonable to argue that peer assessment isn't valuable to students figuring out where to go to school and it shouldn't factor into rankings, but just because you don't/people shouldn't care about peer assessments doesn't magically make student assessments of law schools peer assessments. Students' peer assessments would be of other students, because a student simply isn't a peer of an institution - that's not how it works. You could possibly argue that what we should be looking at is how a student's peer would assess their own school, which again, fine, but that's not a school's peer assessment, which is how the term is being used.

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dingbat
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Re: USNWR Trolling with Yale #1. Texas Tech is place to be

Postby dingbat » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:43 am

Please don't be a pollfessor alt

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moonman157
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Re: USNWR Trolling with Yale #1. Texas Tech is place to be

Postby moonman157 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 10:54 am

For as much fluff as the USNWR rankings may take into account, and for whatever improvements these rankings may make, the end result of the USNRW rankings are so vastly superior that it has to mean something. Methodology aside, I would much rather have a prospective law student internalize the USNWR's top 10 (or top 14) than this bullshit system's.

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hephaestus
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Re: USNWR Trolling with Yale #1. Texas Tech is place to be

Postby hephaestus » Thu Feb 14, 2013 11:11 am

moonman157 wrote:For as much fluff as the USNWR rankings may take into account, and for whatever improvements these rankings may make, the end result of the USNRW rankings are so vastly superior that it has to mean something. Methodology aside, I would much rather have a prospective law student internalize the USNWR's top 10 (or top 14) than this bullshit system's.

Yeah. I mean, no one argues that the USNWR system is great, but at least it gets the T14 right.

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moonman157
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Re: USNWR Trolling with Yale #1. Texas Tech is place to be

Postby moonman157 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 12:58 pm

ImNoScar wrote:
moonman157 wrote:For as much fluff as the USNWR rankings may take into account, and for whatever improvements these rankings may make, the end result of the USNRW rankings are so vastly superior that it has to mean something. Methodology aside, I would much rather have a prospective law student internalize the USNWR's top 10 (or top 14) than this bullshit system's.

Yeah. I mean, no one argues that the USNWR system is great, but at least it gets the T14 right.


And they're even not bad when it comes to establishing "tiers." The problem with USNWR rankings is the problem with any system of rankings for law schools, namely that any ranking system with have UNC higher or lower than University of Washington, but for someone with ties to Seattle who wants to work there, where UNC is ranked in relation to UW is absolutely meaningless. The TLS conventional wisdom of "T14 or best local school in the area that you have ties to" is TCR for choosing a law school most of the time, but there's no way for a simple rankings system to take that into account.

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nickb285
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Re: USNWR Trolling with Yale #1. Texas Tech is place to be

Postby nickb285 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:53 pm

moonman157 wrote:And they're even not bad when it comes to establishing "tiers." The problem with USNWR rankings is the problem with any system of rankings for law schools, namely that any ranking system with have UNC higher or lower than University of Washington, but for someone with ties to Seattle who wants to work there, where UNC is ranked in relation to UW is absolutely meaningless. The TLS conventional wisdom of "T14 or best local school in the area that you have ties to" is TCR for choosing a law school most of the time, but there's no way for a simple rankings system to take that into account.


I think you could, but it'd be a pain in the ass. You'd have to separate the country into regions, and have separate national and regional rankings. Then you rank the "national" schools, this would probably wind up looking a lot like the current USNWR rankings, but maybe only do the top 25 schools or so. Then you match the rest of the schools only against schools in their state/region, so you have, for instance, the University of Utah ranked relative to ASU, Colorado, U of Arizona, and U of Idaho under a Mountain West/Southwest regional ranking, but not listed in competition with Alabama and Georgia. Stipulate that objectively and quantitatively comparing schools from different regions is nearly impossible unless you're talking about the nationally recognized schools ranked in the national list.

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Crowing
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Re: USNWR Trolling with Yale #1. Texas Tech is place to be

Postby Crowing » Thu Feb 14, 2013 2:57 pm

nickb285 wrote:
moonman157 wrote:And they're even not bad when it comes to establishing "tiers." The problem with USNWR rankings is the problem with any system of rankings for law schools, namely that any ranking system with have UNC higher or lower than University of Washington, but for someone with ties to Seattle who wants to work there, where UNC is ranked in relation to UW is absolutely meaningless. The TLS conventional wisdom of "T14 or best local school in the area that you have ties to" is TCR for choosing a law school most of the time, but there's no way for a simple rankings system to take that into account.


I think you could, but it'd be a pain in the ass. You'd have to separate the country into regions, and have separate national and regional rankings. Then you rank the "national" schools, this would probably wind up looking a lot like the current USNWR rankings, but maybe only do the top 25 schools or so. Then you match the rest of the schools only against schools in their state/region, so you have, for instance, the University of Utah ranked relative to ASU, Colorado, U of Arizona, and U of Idaho under a Mountain West/Southwest regional ranking, but not listed in competition with Alabama and Georgia. Stipulate that objectively and quantitatively comparing schools from different regions is nearly impossible unless you're talking about the nationally recognized schools ranked in the national list.


The problem with this is that even regions are meaningless. Law is really restricted to individual states. A state school in MO is not gonna get you a job in KS. Anyway LST already has something like this.

20141023
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Re: USNWR Trolling with Yale #1. Texas Tech is place to be

Postby 20141023 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:07 pm

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Last edited by 20141023 on Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Brainalist
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Re: USNWR Trolling with Yale #1. Texas Tech is place to be

Postby The Brainalist » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:21 pm

*Goes to ratemyprofessors.com*
*Gives poor ratings to all law profs at stanford*
*Has never been to stanford*
*Profits*

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CFprez
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Re: USNWR Trolling with Yale #1. Texas Tech is place to be

Postby CFprez » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:37 pm

kappycaft1 wrote:I think that the USNWR peer evaluations actually do play a somewhat-important role in the rankings. They essentially prevent great schools that might have had one "bad year" from taking a precipitous drop in rankings, and they also prevent shitty schools from gaming the system to take a giant leap in rankings. If the rankings were solely based around employment rates, then institutions such as Cooley could potentially create low-paying, full-time, long-term, JD-required positions for all of their students that couldn't get such jobs so that it would appear as though 100% of their graduates were employed as actual lawyers. This would make it impossible to tell the difference between places like Cooley and Yale for the common uninformed applicant. Additionally, law school faculty tend to know at least a little bit about other schools, and therefore they can prevent garbage like this from happening through peer evaluations. If rankings were all about employment, you might see schools driving each other out of business trying to create jobs - irregardless of quality - for their graduates. The peer evaluations are thus kind of like a system of checks and balances.


kappycaft1 are you essentially saying that Cooley is now going to pay all their graduates and create a seemingly endless PYRAMID SCHEME? Basically every new Cooley student paying loans will support 10 Cooley students at minimum wage. That would be the way to win a rankings scheme.

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drmguy
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Re: USNWR Trolling with Yale #1. Texas Tech is place to be

Postby drmguy » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:03 pm

National Jurist defends its rankings

Sounds like including the ratemyprofessors data was their biggest problem.

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dingbat
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Re: USNWR Trolling with Yale #1. Texas Tech is place to be

Postby dingbat » Thu Feb 14, 2013 6:10 pm

The only credible rankings is NLJ250 plus Article III clerkships
It's not perfect, but it'll do

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DaleCooper
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Re: USNWR Trolling with Yale #1. Texas Tech is place to be

Postby DaleCooper » Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:07 am

dingbat wrote:The only credible rankings is NLJ250 plus Article III clerkships
It's not perfect, but it'll do


:evil:

You must include FedGov and PreftigePI.

(Okay, I've done my part.)

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: USNWR Trolling with Yale #1. Texas Tech is place to be

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 11:21 am

Even the NLJ350 isn't as useful as it should be. That data would need to only take into account partner track associates in order to be useful for rankings, as there are a lotto of of staff attorney/career associate/doc review type positions that should not be counted.

Federal government full time, long term positions should be counted as well. There are a lot of temporary federal positions out there that shouldn't be counted.

cooldude87
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Re: USNWR Trolling with Yale #1. Texas Tech is place to be

Postby cooldude87 » Fri Feb 15, 2013 5:04 pm

--LinkRemoved--

lol




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