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UVA, NYU or Columbia

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:14 am
by lawschoolboundfuture
Which one should I go to? I want to eventually live in DC

Re: UVA, NYU or Columbia

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:27 am
by NDJ
take the $ and run brah - 90k is a lot. and try to negotiate with the other two..
TLS conventional wisdom seems to be that if CLS/NYU are any more 'nationally portable' than UVA and other non"T6" schools, its by a very slim margin. but i am pretty new on here so i may be wrong...im sure others will disagree.. either way i think going into major debt ite should only be a final resort.. 90k is a LOT of money to pay for a few % of biglaw chances.. (assuming this is what you want)
congrats either way!

Re: UVA, NYU or Columbia

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:34 am
by Ti Malice
Hmm, I think that's a tough call. I hesitate to say that CLS is $90K better than UVA, but below median at CLS is quite a bit less scary than below median at UVA. DC might be fairly tough from either, but your chances of underemployment are much lower with CLS. If you have no preexisting debt, I would probably lean toward CLS by a hair, but I wouldn't say that's the obvious choice by any means.

Re: UVA, NYU or Columbia

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:17 am
by Bronck
Wait until NYU and CLS give out merit aid.

Re: UVA, NYU or Columbia

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:37 am
by star fox
Take the money.

Re: UVA, NYU or Columbia

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:32 am
by Real Madrid
NYU can be eliminated immediately.

If you were set on NYC, I could maybe see an argument for Columbia, but since you want to work in DC I really can't.

UVa

Re: UVA, NYU or Columbia

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 9:17 am
by nebula666
No shame in saving almost $100k when you don't want NYC.

Re: UVA, NYU or Columbia

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:04 am
by envisciguy
It's important to consider cost of living too. You're going to spend considerably more in NY than you will in Charlottesville. So the $90,000 from UVA is closer to $100,000, if not more.

Re: UVA, NYU or Columbia

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:06 am
by JamMasterJ
UVA, though you may still get money at the other two

<< an NYU student

Re: UVA, NYU or Columbia

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 11:32 am
by dixiecupdrinking
Wait and see. If NYU/CLS end up being sticker, then definitely take UVA. If they close the gap (and I suspect you may get something from NYU/CLS; IIRC they give out merit aid pretty late in the cycle), then either CLS or NYU is defensible. From knowing a few UVA students, my impression has been that there is a feeling there that job prospects are not quite as certain as they are at the T6; what price you put on that is a personal question.

Re: UVA, NYU or Columbia

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 12:25 pm
by NoodleyOne
90+k is a ton of money. CoL in Cville is way lower. Easy imo.

Re: UVA, NYU or Columbia

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:44 pm
by helix23
NDJ wrote:take the $ and run brah - 90k is a lot. and try to negotiate with the other two..
TLS conventional wisdom seems to be that if CLS/NYU are any more 'nationally portable' than UVA and other non"T6" schools, its by a very slim margin. but i am pretty new on here so i may be wrong...im sure others will disagree.. either way i think going into major debt ite should only be a final resort.. 90k is a LOT of money to pay for a few % of biglaw chances.. (assuming this is what you want)
congrats either way!


It's not "a few %" it's 61.4% for CLS v. 37.1% for UVA

Re: UVA, NYU or Columbia

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:47 pm
by JamesDean1955
helix23 wrote:
NDJ wrote:take the $ and run brah - 90k is a lot. and try to negotiate with the other two..
TLS conventional wisdom seems to be that if CLS/NYU are any more 'nationally portable' than UVA and other non"T6" schools, its by a very slim margin. but i am pretty new on here so i may be wrong...im sure others will disagree.. either way i think going into major debt ite should only be a final resort.. 90k is a LOT of money to pay for a few % of biglaw chances.. (assuming this is what you want)
congrats either way!


It's not "a few %" it's 61.4% for CLS v. 37.1% for UVA


Don't misrepresent based on one year's data. If you're a pessimist and honestly think that trend will continue, go ahead, I don't agree with that TLS notion. A better number is the five-year averages (someone should update this btw):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... pUVE#gid=0

Re: UVA, NYU or Columbia

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:54 pm
by helix23
JamesDean1955 wrote:
helix23 wrote:
NDJ wrote:take the $ and run brah - 90k is a lot. and try to negotiate with the other two..
TLS conventional wisdom seems to be that if CLS/NYU are any more 'nationally portable' than UVA and other non"T6" schools, its by a very slim margin. but i am pretty new on here so i may be wrong...im sure others will disagree.. either way i think going into major debt ite should only be a final resort.. 90k is a LOT of money to pay for a few % of biglaw chances.. (assuming this is what you want)
congrats either way!


It's not "a few %" it's 61.4% for CLS v. 37.1% for UVA


Don't misrepresent based on one year's data. If you're a pessimist and honestly think that trend will continue, go ahead, I don't agree with that TLS notion. A better number is the five-year averages (someone should update this btw):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... pUVE#gid=0


Jimmy, I gave last year's big law numbers, not sure how that makes me a pessimist making prognostications about trends? I also think that last year's numbers are more helpful than a 5 year average. I don't think 2007 is totally relevant.

Re: UVA, NYU or Columbia

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:59 pm
by JamesDean1955
^ I know you did, straight from LST. We disagree in that I think UVA had a bad year last go around, and it ain't gonna continue in the future (I think this will be true of most non-HYSCCN T14's). I would expect that number to go back up in the high 40's in the next year. Whether you agree with that or not, a 5 year average (even with 2007) is a better representation than a one year statistic.

Take out 2007, add in 2012 figures, and UVA will come out ahead while Columbia will be unchanged.

EDIT: Disclaimer: UVA isn't even a top choice of mine at this point, so no UVA trollin' here.

Re: UVA, NYU or Columbia

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:06 pm
by star fox
JamesDean1955 wrote:^ I know you did, straight from LST. We disagree in that I think UVA had a bad year last go around, and it ain't gonna continue in the future (I think this will be true of most non-HYSCCN T14's). I would expect that number to go back up in the high 40's in the next year. Whether you agree with that or not, a 5 year average (even with 2007) is a better representation than a one year statistic.

Take out 2007, add in 2012 figures, and UVA will come out ahead while Columbia will be unchanged.

EDIT: Disclaimer: UVA isn't even a top choice of mine at this point, so no UVA trollin' here.


I'm guessing people who entered Law School in 2010 probably thought the same thing (not just from the Top 14, but definitely including them). I wonder how that's working out for many of those people as they prepare to graduate and enter the over-saturated job market in a few months. The most important numbers for employment are last year's. Expecting a "bounce-back" or that "it'll get better" is always a risky proposition.

Re: UVA, NYU or Columbia

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:11 pm
by JamesDean1955
Completely risk-averse people should not even be considering law school, outside of HYS WITH financial aid. There's definitely risk involved in making positive speculations, and TLS doesn't like optimism and reads LST every night like it's the bible, but I think we have seen the worst. The worst things will be from here on out is stagnant, due to the oversaturation of the market and changes in firm structures. That's the worst it will be.

I know I'm one against 1,000 on these boards. Oh well, I'll take my chances.

EDIT: Note that my thoughts do not extend to non-T14 schools. Maybe T25, T30 schools will come back as well, but I'm only focusing on T14's here.

Re: UVA, NYU or Columbia

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:13 pm
by Sheffield
If you can get into Columbia, do it. UVA has way too many school funded jobs, counted as employment.

Re: UVA, NYU or Columbia

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:15 pm
by Rahviveh
john7234797 wrote:
JamesDean1955 wrote:^ I know you did, straight from LST. We disagree in that I think UVA had a bad year last go around, and it ain't gonna continue in the future (I think this will be true of most non-HYSCCN T14's). I would expect that number to go back up in the high 40's in the next year. Whether you agree with that or not, a 5 year average (even with 2007) is a better representation than a one year statistic.

Take out 2007, add in 2012 figures, and UVA will come out ahead while Columbia will be unchanged.

EDIT: Disclaimer: UVA isn't even a top choice of mine at this point, so no UVA trollin' here.


I'm guessing people who entered Law School in 2010 probably thought the same thing (not just from the Top 14, but definitely including them). I wonder how that's working out for many of those people as they prepare to graduate and enter the over-saturated job market in a few months. The most important numbers for employment are last year's. Expecting a "bounce-back" or that "it'll get better" is always a risky proposition.


The question is the difference between UVA/CLS (24% for 2011 vs 11% for the years before it). Will that difference revert back to pre-ITE levels?

Is it at all reflective of placement ability between the two schools? Probably not.

Granted 11% is still a lot to me - but people will value that differently depending on your goals.

Also - according to career services at UVA c/o 2012 placed 55% into big firms. I don't know what that figure is for CLS.

Re: UVA, NYU or Columbia

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:19 pm
by JamesDean1955
Oh, there will always be a huge gap between CLS and UVA, no doubt. I just think that gap is more likely to close, because UVA can't do much worse, and Columbia will probably due better as well, but they are not going back to 75%-80% NLJ250 placement anytime soon.

EDIT: Also note that the question from the OP is not UVA vs. CLS, but UVA w/30k vs. CLS. Assuming that gap closes, which I think it will, some previous posters were underestimating picking UVA in this situation.

Re: UVA, NYU or Columbia

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:19 pm
by helix23
JamesDean1955 wrote:Completely risk-averse people should not even be considering law school, outside of HYS WITH financial aid. There's definitely risk involved in making positive speculations, and TLS doesn't like optimism and reads LST every night like it's the bible, but I think we have seen the worst. The worst things will be from here on out is stagnant, due to the oversaturation of the market and changes in firm structures. That's the worst it will be.


Wait, are you criticizing people for studying/citing real stats as opposed to proffering flowery, baseless proclamations about how things are going to get better?

Re: UVA, NYU or Columbia

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:25 pm
by JamesDean1955
helix23 wrote:
JamesDean1955 wrote:Completely risk-averse people should not even be considering law school, outside of HYS WITH financial aid. There's definitely risk involved in making positive speculations, and TLS doesn't like optimism and reads LST every night like it's the bible, but I think we have seen the worst. The worst things will be from here on out is stagnant, due to the oversaturation of the market and changes in firm structures. That's the worst it will be.


Wait, are you criticizing people for studying/citing real stats as opposed to proffering flowery, baseless proclamations about how things are going to get better?


I'm criticizing you not seeing the forest for the trees. You apparently haven't lived long enough to realize that the economy is cyclical and will bounce back, including the legal market. Constantly reading about how bad things are now makes you nothing more than some moron with tunnel-vision.

I currently work in biglaw (non-attorney), have friends in biglaw (attorneys and otherwise), and some friends at T14's. and I can tell you it's not as bad as TLS would have you believe. Quote all the LST stats you want, at the end of the day your focus is far too narrow.

Anyways I can see how this argument will go nowhere on TLS. Carry on.

Re: UVA, NYU or Columbia

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 2:28 pm
by Rahviveh
helix23 wrote:
JamesDean1955 wrote:Completely risk-averse people should not even be considering law school, outside of HYS WITH financial aid. There's definitely risk involved in making positive speculations, and TLS doesn't like optimism and reads LST every night like it's the bible, but I think we have seen the worst. The worst things will be from here on out is stagnant, due to the oversaturation of the market and changes in firm structures. That's the worst it will be.


Wait, are you criticizing people for studying/citing real stats as opposed to proffering flowery, baseless proclamations about how things are going to get better?


LST is based on c/o 2011 which was supposedly rock bottom, and things have allegedly gotten better since then - and now have plateaued: viewtopic.php?f=23&t=204171

As a 0L I would be perfectly satisfied if things just don't get worse.

Re: UVA, NYU or Columbia

Posted: Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:17 pm
by NYstate
You don't have to guess about 2012 SA hiring. NALP reported on it.
Because 3L hiring basically doesn't exist, if you don't get an SA or if you get no- offered, it looks like biglaw is out.

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=204171

I don't think this pattern of hiring is cyclical, at least not in the next few years which 0Ls here are focused on. Read the Citi report. It has been linked here a few times and you can google it - Citi Hildebrant report. I don't have time to find this now.

Re: UVA, NYU or Columbia

Posted: Thu Feb 14, 2013 7:26 pm
by DaleCooper
Without regard to culture? UVA, then Columbia.*

But those two schools really are polar opposites, culture-wise. I wouldn't make the decision until you've visited both and made sure you don't absolutely hate one of them.

*And I go to NYU.