UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker

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UtilityMonster
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Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker

Postby UtilityMonster » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:35 pm

stevenash1313 wrote:
envisciguy wrote:I'd take a full ride at virtually any of the top 14 over HYS. It's hard to beat free.


Definitely, you'd be an idiot to not take UVA. debt is real.


Really? So that must make many of the 1000 students at HYS idiots as it is a safe bet many of them were offered a full ride at a t14.

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BruceWayne
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Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker

Postby BruceWayne » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:54 pm

If you choose UVA you can almost certainly kiss Chicago and Texas goodbye if you are not from one of those cities/states (you would need very high grades to work in these cities with no ties from UVA). Median getting DC from UVA is hard but doable.

If you get below median at UVA you'll be lucky to get any firm job at all.

Regardless of the grades you get at HYS you'll get a firm job if you want it and know how to bid/interview.

If your grades at HYS are average/decent you can get Chicago, Texas, or DC regardless of ties.

Those are the main things you should consider (FYI I'm at UVA).

grapefruits
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Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker

Postby grapefruits » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:09 pm

Desert Fox wrote:You can't reliably get Chicago/Texas without having ties, even from Yale.


What data do you have, that reliably excludes self-selection, that substantiates this?

EdgarWinter
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Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker

Postby EdgarWinter » Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:13 pm

UtilityMonster wrote:
stevenash1313 wrote:
envisciguy wrote:I'd take a full ride at virtually any of the top 14 over HYS. It's hard to beat free.


Definitely, you'd be an idiot to not take UVA. debt is real.


Really? So that must make many of the 1000 students at HYS idiots as it is a safe bet many of them were offered a full ride at a t14.


The vast majority of HYS admits are not offered T14 full rides. The latter are far rarer.

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bk1
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Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker

Postby bk1 » Sat Feb 16, 2013 6:22 pm

grapefruits wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:You can't reliably get Chicago/Texas without having ties, even from Yale.


What data do you have, that reliably excludes self-selection, that substantiates this?

There will never be data for this one way or the other. It simply isn't collected.

That being said, ITT there are a bunch of actual law students who have gone through OCI and who know plenty of other law students who have gone through OCI (myself, DF, BW, etc). We know from experience how hard it is for people to break into markets where they don't have ties. It is hard for their resume to get pulled from the stack that is mailed in and even if you get a screener through OCI, it is hard to convince them in person that you want to be there.

I know because I've experienced it and I've talked to people who've experienced it. I've had screening interviews where I was absolutely grilled about my interest in a certain area. When everything in your resume points to another location it is hard to convince the interviewer that you legitimately want to work in their location. As much as you pontificate about wanting city X, without any hard factors for wanting city X, most interviewers are going to be skeptical.

Firms don't want to have to deal with someone picking up and leaving because they don't like the location. People who have never lived in a location are flight risks because they can't know if they'd like it long term. It's not like there is a dearth of over qualified law students. Firms can easily get the credentials they want out of people who have ties meaning they have no need to overcome their reluctance to hire people without ties.

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Stringer Bell
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Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker

Postby Stringer Bell » Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:01 pm

There is a lot of misinformation about getting secondary markets without strong ties on this site. You can absolutely pull it off, but there are a bunch of variables. A big one is where you actually have ties to. For example, if you are from Hope, Arkansas, went to undergrad at the University of Arkansas and go to Duke or UVA for law school you could potentially get Atlanta, Birmingham, Texas, etc. Many firms aren't going to be too skeptical that you are dying to get back to Hope and it makes sense that you would have an interest in those particular markets. Having a good reason for wanting those markets or the particular firm is still necessary though. However, if you are from Atlanta, went to GT for undergrad, worked for a few years in Atlanta and go to UVA or Duke for law school then try to get Chicago, you generally had better have a damn good reason to have any shot. Some firms will listen to a good reason, but many will not. This even somewhat extends to New York.

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Rahviveh
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Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker

Postby Rahviveh » Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:04 pm

Stringer Bell wrote:There is a lot of misinformation about getting secondary markets without strong ties on this site. You can absolutely pull it off, but there are a bunch of variables. A big one is where you actually have ties to. For example, if you are from Hope, Arkansas, went to undergrad at the University of Arkansas and go to Duke or UVA for law school you could potentially get Atlanta, Birmingham, Texas, etc. Many firms aren't going to be too skeptical that you are dying to get back to Hope and it makes sense that you would have an interest in those particular markets. Having a good reason for wanting those markets or the particular firm is still necessary though. However, if you are from Atlanta, went to GT for undergrad, worked for a few years in Atlanta and go to UVA or Duke for law school then try to get Chicago, you generally had better have a damn good reason to have any shot. Some firms will listen to a good reason, but many will not. This even somewhat extends to New York.


What about going to law school in Chicago and trying to find a job there if you've been in CA or NY your whole life? Is that enough of a tie?

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Stringer Bell
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Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker

Postby Stringer Bell » Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:22 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
Stringer Bell wrote:There is a lot of misinformation about getting secondary markets without strong ties on this site. You can absolutely pull it off, but there are a bunch of variables. A big one is where you actually have ties to. For example, if you are from Hope, Arkansas, went to undergrad at the University of Arkansas and go to Duke or UVA for law school you could potentially get Atlanta, Birmingham, Texas, etc. Many firms aren't going to be too skeptical that you are dying to get back to Hope and it makes sense that you would have an interest in those particular markets. Having a good reason for wanting those markets or the particular firm is still necessary though. However, if you are from Atlanta, went to GT for undergrad, worked for a few years in Atlanta and go to UVA or Duke for law school then try to get Chicago, you generally had better have a damn good reason to have any shot. Some firms will listen to a good reason, but many will not. This even somewhat extends to New York.


What about going to law school in Chicago and trying to find a job there if you've been in CA or NY your whole life? Is that enough of a tie?


I don't want to give you misinformation, so hopefully some of the NU or UChicago people can help. My guess is that if you work in Chicago for 1L summer and especially if you have a good reason for why you went to school there that you can deliver convincingly (i.e. visited friends there before and liked it much better than where you are from or possibly even just fell in love with the city when you visited the school), you will not be at too much of a disadvantage. It will probably just depend on who happens to be interviewing you.

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bk1
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Re: UVA 150K vs HYS Sticker

Postby bk1 » Mon Feb 18, 2013 3:59 pm

Stringer Bell wrote:There is a lot of misinformation about getting secondary markets without strong ties on this site. You can absolutely pull it off, but there are a bunch of variables. A big one is where you actually have ties to. For example, if you are from Hope, Arkansas, went to undergrad at the University of Arkansas and go to Duke or UVA for law school you could potentially get Atlanta, Birmingham, Texas, etc. Many firms aren't going to be too skeptical that you are dying to get back to Hope and it makes sense that you would have an interest in those particular markets. Having a good reason for wanting those markets or the particular firm is still necessary though. However, if you are from Atlanta, went to GT for undergrad, worked for a few years in Atlanta and go to UVA or Duke for law school then try to get Chicago, you generally had better have a damn good reason to have any shot. Some firms will listen to a good reason, but many will not. This even somewhat extends to New York.

I'm not sure who you were referring to as misinformation but I don't think anyone disagrees with this. Ties can often mean to a larger area (e.g. Midwest, South, West Coast, etc) and it often happens that you can get a job in a specific city where you've never actually been because of a larger tie to the area. It's also true that having weaker ties to somewhere else can be beneficial as well, whereas people with a strong tie to a good area can have this screw them over when hunting in another area. Which then gets to this post:
ChampagnePapi wrote:What about going to law school in Chicago and trying to find a job there if you've been in CA or NY your whole life? Is that enough of a tie?

It can be enough of tie. SB's right that you will be much better off if you summer in Chicago rather than the place you're from. I am from CA and spent my 1L summer in CA, but still managed to be semi-successful in Chicago interviews (I got to NU). However, as I noted above, I was routinely grilled on my desire for Chicago. Some interviewers believed me, some did not buy a single explanation that came out of my mouth. That's going to be the way it is, some interviewers will be convinceable with good reasons and others will not be persuaded no matter what. It is definitely at least a slight uphill battle overall, but it is made easier by spending 1L summer in Chicago.




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