Legal Academia

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superhopefulwoo
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Legal Academia

Postby superhopefulwoo » Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:12 pm

If I were interested in legal academia, are there schools other than HYS which would allow me to pursue that career?

iteachtenthgrade
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Re: Legal Academia

Postby iteachtenthgrade » Tue Feb 12, 2013 5:19 pm

This:

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=199388

And about 100 others if you use the "search" function.

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jselson
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Re: Legal Academia

Postby jselson » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:23 pm

superhopefulwoo wrote:If I were interested in legal academia, are there schools other than HYS which would allow me to pursue that career?


Add Chicago. Other schools are crapshoots.

09042014
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Re: Legal Academia

Postby 09042014 » Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:33 pm

jselson wrote:
superhopefulwoo wrote:If I were interested in legal academia, are there schools other than HYS which would allow me to pursue that career?


Add Chicago. Other schools are crapshoots.


I'd bet 50 bucks that Chicago's placement in academia is mostly just more people trying because of the kind of egregious nerds that go there.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Legal Academia

Postby The Brainalist » Tue Feb 12, 2013 9:05 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
jselson wrote:
superhopefulwoo wrote:If I were interested in legal academia, are there schools other than HYS which would allow me to pursue that career?


Add Chicago. Other schools are crapshoots.


I'd bet 50 bucks that Chicago's placement in academia is mostly just more people trying because of the kind of egregious nerds that go there.


I'd also bet that Yale wouldn't be placing so many in academia if so many of them did not try for academia.

You know, a good argument could be made that much of the benefit of ending up at YSH comes in the form of confidence or perceived opportunities.

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jselson
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Re: Legal Academia

Postby jselson » Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:11 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
jselson wrote:
superhopefulwoo wrote:If I were interested in legal academia, are there schools other than HYS which would allow me to pursue that career?


Add Chicago. Other schools are crapshoots.


I'd bet 50 bucks that Chicago's placement in academia is mostly just more people trying because of the kind of egregious nerds that go there.


Even if this is true, they still place and schools look to them more than Columbia or NYU, and at least the OP would be with a group of people who have similar interests rather than being one of a few academia-track folks in sea of biglaw gunners. But idk, I'm an 0L, grain of salt, etc.

09042014
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Re: Legal Academia

Postby 09042014 » Tue Feb 12, 2013 10:19 pm

jselson wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
jselson wrote:
superhopefulwoo wrote:If I were interested in legal academia, are there schools other than HYS which would allow me to pursue that career?


Add Chicago. Other schools are crapshoots.


I'd bet 50 bucks that Chicago's placement in academia is mostly just more people trying because of the kind of egregious nerds that go there.


Even if this is true, they still place and schools look to them more than Columbia or NYU, and at least the OP would be with a group of people who have similar interests rather than being one of a few academia-track folks in sea of biglaw gunners. But idk, I'm an 0L, grain of salt, etc.


But you don't know that schools look to them more.

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Redamon1
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Re: Legal Academia

Postby Redamon1 » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:47 pm

The Brainalist wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
jselson wrote:
superhopefulwoo wrote:If I were interested in legal academia, are there schools other than HYS which would allow me to pursue that career?


Add Chicago. Other schools are crapshoots.


I'd bet 50 bucks that Chicago's placement in academia is mostly just more people trying because of the kind of egregious nerds that go there.


I'd also bet that Yale wouldn't be placing so many in academia if so many of them did not try for academia.

You know, a good argument could be made that much of the benefit of ending up at YSH comes in the form of confidence or perceived opportunities.


It's my feeling as well that most people interested in academia pick HYS if they got in, or drop the idea if they didn't. Conversely, I'd be interested to know to what extent those at other top schools that DO TRY to get academia succeed. In other words, I wish I had more info about the success rate of the various schools.

Myself
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.

Postby Myself » Tue Feb 12, 2013 11:58 pm

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Last edited by Myself on Sun Nov 24, 2013 11:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The Brainalist
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Re: Legal Academia

Postby The Brainalist » Wed Feb 13, 2013 1:50 pm

ajax adonis wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:
I'd also bet that Yale wouldn't be placing so many in academia if so many of them did not try for academia.

You know, a good argument could be made that much of the benefit of ending up at YSH comes in the form of confidence or perceived opportunities.


Eh, you can have all the confidence in the world, but if you're outside T14, it's extremely hard.


This is just for your benefit, but I'm talking about the benefits of YHS which people perceive to be unique to those three schools, specifically access to academia here, but it would probably include clerking or politics in people's minds as well. That would be compared to the schools that are otherwise the same but for differences in placement in those areas, such as Columbia or Chicago.

I don't think it was Leiter's stuff, though he used to do a lot, but I thought I saw somewhere a comparison of those who were trying to land something at whatever meat market they have every year for legal hiring vs. those who landed it. If I remember right, surprisingly few non-HYS grads were even trying for academia.

superhopefulwoo
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Re: Legal Academia

Postby superhopefulwoo » Wed Feb 13, 2013 4:49 pm

The Brainalist wrote:
ajax adonis wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:
I'd also bet that Yale wouldn't be placing so many in academia if so many of them did not try for academia.

You know, a good argument could be made that much of the benefit of ending up at YSH comes in the form of confidence or perceived opportunities.


Eh, you can have all the confidence in the world, but if you're outside T14, it's extremely hard.


This is just for your benefit, but I'm talking about the benefits of YHS which people perceive to be unique to those three schools, specifically access to academia here, but it would probably include clerking or politics in people's minds as well. That would be compared to the schools that are otherwise the same but for differences in placement in those areas, such as Columbia or Chicago.

I don't think it was Leiter's stuff, though he used to do a lot, but I thought I saw somewhere a comparison of those who were trying to land something at whatever meat market they have every year for legal hiring vs. those who landed it. If I remember right, surprisingly few non-HYS grads were even trying for academia.


Looking at the faculty at most law schools, their degrees are so intimidating. I am bummed because I got my first top 10 ding and doubt I have a shot at any I guess. But I would love to pursue legal academia and I just can't help but think pursuing that with a full a scholly at USD is going to help my career in much of anyway. I could be wrong though? Maybe if I'm the only one trying sub top 20 I have a good shot? I am definitely feeling frustrated at myself for not being 'smart' enough

grapefruits
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Re: Legal Academia

Postby grapefruits » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:14 pm

superhopefulwoo wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:
ajax adonis wrote:
The Brainalist wrote:
I'd also bet that Yale wouldn't be placing so many in academia if so many of them did not try for academia.

You know, a good argument could be made that much of the benefit of ending up at YSH comes in the form of confidence or perceived opportunities.


Eh, you can have all the confidence in the world, but if you're outside T14, it's extremely hard.


This is just for your benefit, but I'm talking about the benefits of YHS which people perceive to be unique to those three schools, specifically access to academia here, but it would probably include clerking or politics in people's minds as well. That would be compared to the schools that are otherwise the same but for differences in placement in those areas, such as Columbia or Chicago.

I don't think it was Leiter's stuff, though he used to do a lot, but I thought I saw somewhere a comparison of those who were trying to land something at whatever meat market they have every year for legal hiring vs. those who landed it. If I remember right, surprisingly few non-HYS grads were even trying for academia.


Looking at the faculty at most law schools, their degrees are so intimidating. I am bummed because I got my first top 10 ding and doubt I have a shot at any I guess. But I would love to pursue legal academia and I just can't help but think pursuing that with a full a scholly at USD is going to help my career in much of anyway. I could be wrong though? Maybe if I'm the only one trying sub top 20 I have a good shot? I am definitely feeling frustrated at myself for not being 'smart' enough


Think of it as a favor. If you can't get HYS it's difficult to imagine that you'd have anything substantive to add to legal academia anyhow. You end up looking like a Paul Campos idiot, making shit up because you're butt hurt over teaching at a TTT.

P.S. before anyone tries to call me out on this, I'm referring to the "figures" he provided regarding NYU employment.
P.S.S. I assume, perhaps incorrectly, that people who want academia picture themselves as the next Dworkin, so I don't think it's worth getting your hopes up over if you can't even get into HYS.

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: Legal Academia

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:19 pm

grapefruits wrote:P.S.S. I assume, perhaps incorrectly, that people who want academia picture themselves as the next Dworkin, so I don't think it's worth getting your hopes up over if you can't even get into HYS.


Incorrect. I, for one, love teaching and have a passion for the theory of the law. So I want to do both. That's all. I have no pretense of thinking I would be some seminal scholar. Do I think I could produce a few good ideas that contribute to the scholarship of my field? Sure. But mostly I want to teach law because I want to teach law.

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star fox
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Re: Legal Academia

Postby star fox » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:42 pm

Even tho I think I would enjoy academia more than big law (if I eventually at some point go to U of Chicago. Anything beneath it and there's almost no shot at becoming a law prof) I don't think I could morally do it. I mean, unless you have zero empathy whatsoever it has to be tough to sleep at night knowing your students are paying your salary and in return you are supposed to prepare them for a legal career knowing that the vast majority are going to be SOL upon graduating. It'd be tough to interact and see the optimism of kids who are willing to work hard to study the law knowing what awaits them with a J.D. from whichever TTT hires you.

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star fox
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Re: Legal Academia

Postby star fox » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:43 pm

Even tho I think I would enjoy academia more than big law (if I eventually at some point go to U of Chicago. Anything beneath it and there's almost no shot at becoming a law prof) I don't think I could morally do it. I mean, unless you have zero empathy whatsoever it has to be tough to sleep at night knowing your students are paying your salary and in return you are supposed to prepare them for a legal career knowing that the vast majority are going to be SOL upon graduating. It'd be tough to interact and see the optimism of kids who are willing to work hard to study the law knowing what awaits them with a J.D. from whichever TTT hires you.

grapefruits
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Re: Legal Academia

Postby grapefruits » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:47 pm

John_rizzy_rawls wrote:
grapefruits wrote:P.S.S. I assume, perhaps incorrectly, that people who want academia picture themselves as the next Dworkin, so I don't think it's worth getting your hopes up over if you can't even get into HYS.


Incorrect. I, for one, love teaching and have a passion for the theory of the law. So I want to do both. That's all. I have no pretense of thinking I would be some seminal scholar. Do I think I could produce a few good ideas that contribute to the scholarship of my field? Sure. But mostly I want to teach law because I want to teach law.



Are you a 0L? Do you have the "novel" idea of putting would be law makers behind the veil of ignorance?

On an unrelated note, I hear Columbia needs a con. law (maybe crim., can't remember) prof. ASAP. Look, there are jobs!

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: Legal Academia

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:48 pm

Keep in mind, though, that the teaching part is heavily undervalued in legal academia. Publications are the coin of the realm; teaching is what you have to do because it pays the bills. (Unless you do something like teach practice-oriented courses at a community college or the like.)

And I agree that it would be tough to teach at most law schools, given the employment outcomes they'd face. But getting hired at HYS has got to be harder than getting into them in the first place. And given the bias away from practitioners, getting hired in legal academia usually means you have very little practice experience, which means you're (in theory) teaching students to do something you yourself spent almost no time doing. It's a quandary.

(This isn't meant to be a comment on anyone here's shot at academia, just general comments.)

superhopefulwoo
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Re: Legal Academia

Postby superhopefulwoo » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:51 pm

I don't think that me not getting into HYS means I wouldn't be able to make valuable contributions to the legal academia field. Like previous poster , I enjoy teaching and I enjoy doing research. I don't think my aspirations are unrealistic. I think it is presumptive to state that anyone 'unable' to get into HYS can't be expected to make worthy contributions... I think there are plenty of incredibly intelligent people who didn't get 175+ their first try on the lsat, and their score is by no means an accurate indicator of how valuable their contributions to academia could be.

grapefruits
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Re: Legal Academia

Postby grapefruits » Wed Feb 13, 2013 5:52 pm

john7234797 wrote:Even tho I think I would enjoy academia more than big law (if I eventually at some point go to U of Chicago. Anything beneath it and there's almost no shot at becoming a law prof) I don't think I could morally do it. I mean, unless you have zero empathy whatsoever it has to be tough to sleep at night knowing your students are paying your salary and in return you are supposed to prepare them for a legal career knowing that the vast majority are going to be SOL upon graduating. It'd be tough to interact and see the optimism of kids who are willing to work hard to study the law knowing what awaits them with a J.D. from whichever TTT hires you.



Take comfort in the fact the the government, I.e. people making $100k+/yr, and China, are actually the ones paying for it; as well as the fact that 100% of law students are adults, so if they don't know better, they deserve it.

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hohenheim
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Re: Legal Academia

Postby hohenheim » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:04 pm

superhopefulwoo wrote:I don't think that me not getting into HYS means I wouldn't be able to make valuable contributions to the legal academia field. Like previous poster , I enjoy teaching and I enjoy doing research. I don't think my aspirations are unrealistic. I think it is presumptive to state that anyone 'unable' to get into HYS can't be expected to make worthy contributions... I think there are plenty of incredibly intelligent people who didn't get 175+ their first try on the lsat, and their score is by no means an accurate indicator of how valuable their contributions to academia could be.


So retake

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suralin
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Re: Legal Academia

Postby suralin » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:37 pm

superhopefulwoo wrote:I don't think that me not getting into HYS means I wouldn't be able to make valuable contributions to the legal academia field. Like previous poster , I enjoy teaching and I enjoy doing research. I don't think my aspirations are unrealistic. I think it is presumptive to state that anyone 'unable' to get into HYS can't be expected to make worthy contributions... I think there are plenty of incredibly intelligent people who didn't get 175+ their first try on the lsat, and their score is by no means an accurate indicator of how valuable their contributions to academia could be.


Lol what? Just world fallacy much?

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hephaestus
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Re: Legal Academia

Postby hephaestus » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:46 pm

This thread reminds me of all the "What schools besides the T14 are good for big law" threads.
You may think you can contribute to legal academia. That's great. But no one else will think that. Yale or change your goals.

Big Dog
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Re: Legal Academia

Postby Big Dog » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:49 pm


superhopefulwoo
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Re: Legal Academia

Postby superhopefulwoo » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:53 pm

Suralin wrote:
superhopefulwoo wrote:I don't think that me not getting into HYS means I wouldn't be able to make valuable contributions to the legal academia field. Like previous poster , I enjoy teaching and I enjoy doing research. I don't think my aspirations are unrealistic. I think it is presumptive to state that anyone 'unable' to get into HYS can't be expected to make worthy contributions... I think there are plenty of incredibly intelligent people who didn't get 175+ their first try on the lsat, and their score is by no means an accurate indicator of how valuable their contributions to academia could be.


Lol what? Just world fallacy much?

What I am trying to get across is that I don't think its right to deem someone 'not good enough' because they don't attend HYS. I am open to the fact that I may be wrong or too idealistic. It just seems like most people value prestige more than what an individual has to offer. Again, I may be wrong...! It is just my humble opinion.

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hephaestus
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Re: Legal Academia

Postby hephaestus » Wed Feb 13, 2013 6:56 pm

Not to be overly mean, but your opinion doesn't matter. Hiring committees look for top shelf credentials. That's how it works.




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