GW $$$$ vs UVA no $

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Where to go?

GW $$$$
36
47%
UVA
41
53%
 
Total votes: 77

otnemem
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Re: GW $$$$ vs UVA no $

Postby otnemem » Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:41 pm

UVA barely places half of its grads in biglaw, which is what you'd need to pay off the loan
GW barely places half of its grads in real law jobs, which is what you'd need to make it worthwhile


This raises an interesting question regarding the reduction in class sizes for C/O '16. I doubt that it will have much of an affect on biglaw hiring, considering that the schools that place most students into biglaw haven't reduced class size that much, and that biglaw makes up such a small percentage of entry level hiring generally. However, it should have a noticeable effect on the ability of graduates to just get any legal job from a school like GW. 25,000 jobs for 45,000 graduates = 55%, whereas 25,000 jobs for 35,000 graduates = 71%. This is of course speculative, but I think it's worth taking into consideration. Regardless, I'd recommend GW in this situation.

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dingbat
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Re: GW $$$$ vs UVA no $

Postby dingbat » Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:56 pm

otnemem wrote:
UVA barely places half of its grads in biglaw, which is what you'd need to pay off the loan
GW barely places half of its grads in real law jobs, which is what you'd need to make it worthwhile


This raises an interesting question regarding the reduction in class sizes for C/O '16. I doubt that it will have much of an affect on biglaw hiring, considering that the schools that place most students into biglaw haven't reduced class size that much, and that biglaw makes up such a small percentage of entry level hiring generally. However, it should have a noticeable effect on the ability of graduates to just get any legal job from a school like GW. 25,000 jobs for 45,000 graduates = 55%, whereas 25,000 jobs for 35,000 graduates = 71%. This is of course speculative, but I think it's worth taking into consideration. Regardless, I'd recommend GW in this situation.

you're vastly oversimplifying. The vast majority of students at top schools will predominantly have a good outcome, while the vast majority of students at really crappy schools will have a predominantly bad outcome.
For a school like GW, reducing their class size won't make a big impact, as firms are unlikely to adjust their grade cutoffs all that much. So, if a firm used to only interview the top 25%, they will probably still only interview the top 25%. However, of all the people who make the cutoffs and snag an interview, if that number has decreased, the callback ratio, and offer ratio, will increase a little bit to pick up the slack.
I don't see firms like cravath hiring more non-T6 kids than they have in the past, though.

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JCougar
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Re: GW $$$$ vs UVA no $

Postby JCougar » Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:12 pm

dingbat wrote:.
For a school like GW, reducing their class size won't make a big impact, as firms are unlikely to adjust their grade cutoffs all that much. So, if a firm used to only interview the top 25%, they will probably still only interview the top 25%.


This very true. It takes firms like 10 years to adjust their cutoffs. This is why it's stupid to react to 1-year rankings changes in US News. ASU isn't getting any more firms at OCI because of their gaming the rankings.

There's probably some rare exceptions, though. Illinois looks like its going down the tubes fast after the Dean Pless scandal. I can't imagine Biglaw firms sticking with them while their LSAT scores drop to T2 status and they plummet. Looks like their LST scores show a bleak outlook, too.

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dingbat
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Re: GW $$$$ vs UVA no $

Postby dingbat » Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:22 pm

JCougar wrote:
dingbat wrote:.
For a school like GW, reducing their class size won't make a big impact, as firms are unlikely to adjust their grade cutoffs all that much. So, if a firm used to only interview the top 25%, they will probably still only interview the top 25%.


This very true. It takes firms like 10 years to adjust their cutoffs. This is why it's stupid to react to 1-year rankings changes in US News. ASU isn't getting any more firms at OCI because of their gaming the rankings.

Actually, from the hiring people I've spoken with, it appears they've adjusted fairly quickly to the recession. (though, to be fair, it's been quite a few years already)
One thing to note is that firms will adjust based on their hiring needs - if their cutoffs are too high for their hiring needs, they'll go lower down; if they realize they're getting too many applicants relative to the number of spots they've got, they'll raise their cutoffs to make the load more manageable.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: GW $$$$ vs UVA no $

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:47 pm

Otnemem makes a good point that might change the way people think about law school decisions. While it's still early, it appears that the number of graduates in 2016 and beyond will be a lot lower than what we're used to. Assuming the number of jobs stays the same, a lot fewer people will end up unemployed. If someone's only goal is to be a lawyer, it starts to make a lot more sense to just take the full ride at a lower ranked school because the odds of actually finding paying legal work at graduation go up. And if you have a full ride there is far less concern about a truly bad outcome because you won't have the debt noose hanging around your neck. Before, going to a crappy school just seemed like a waste of three years and while that may be the case for some if we can get the number of grads down around 30-35K most of the people at crappy schools will actually work as lawyers.

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dingbat
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Re: GW $$$$ vs UVA no $

Postby dingbat » Sun Feb 10, 2013 3:58 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:Otnemem makes a good point that might change the way people think about law school decisions. While it's still early, it appears that the number of graduates in 2016 and beyond will be a lot lower than what we're used to. Assuming the number of jobs stays the same, a lot fewer people will end up unemployed. If someone's only goal is to be a lawyer, it starts to make a lot more sense to just take the full ride at a lower ranked school because the odds of actually finding paying legal work at graduation go up. And if you have a full ride there is far less concern about a truly bad outcome because you won't have the debt noose hanging around your neck. Before, going to a crappy school just seemed like a waste of three years and while that may be the case for some if we can get the number of grads down around 30-35K most of the people at crappy schools will actually work as lawyers.

Depends on how crappy.
I'm fairly certain that, for example, in NY, it means more grads from Fordham, Brooklyn and Cardozo will be getting jobs, but Touro and NYLS grads will still have abysmal prospects

otnemem
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Re: GW $$$$ vs UVA no $

Postby otnemem » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:43 pm

dingbat wrote:you're vastly oversimplifying. The vast majority of students at top schools will predominantly have a good outcome, while the vast majority of students at really crappy schools will have a predominantly bad outcome.
For a school like GW, reducing their class size won't make a big impact, as firms are unlikely to adjust their grade cutoffs all that much. So, if a firm used to only interview the top 25%, they will probably still only interview the top 25%. However, of all the people who make the cutoffs and snag an interview, if that number has decreased, the callback ratio, and offer ratio, will increase a little bit to pick up the slack.
I don't see firms like cravath hiring more non-T6 kids than they have in the past, though.


I agree that big/midsize firms aren't going to really adjust their grade cutoffs. That's part of the reason why I said fewer people graduating will not affect biglaw hiring that much, especially at a school like GW. However, small law, state clerkships, etc, don't typically have grade cutoffs, and with fewer people competing for those jobs, the percentage of students getting those jobs will increase. Of course this is all assuming that the number of legal job openings per year stays the same. But if if does, most schools should, on average, put something like 15% more people into full time legal jobs in 2016 than they did in 2011. Now of course, that will vary from school to school, and it doesn't necessarily depend on how much a school decreases its own class size. And of course, there will still be more people graduating from those schools than there are jobs.

The main point I was trying to make is that a decrease in the overall number of people graduating law school may change the calculus a bit for people considering full rides at T1 and T2 schools. Anything close to sticker is still a terrible idea for a school like say, Fordham. On the other hand, a full ride to Brooklyn is probably worth it for certain people, and I don't know if I would have said that a few years ago.

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dingbat
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Re: GW $$$$ vs UVA no $

Postby dingbat » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:45 pm

otnemem wrote: schools should, on average, put something like 15% more people into full time legal jobs in 2016 than they did in 2011. Now of course, that will vary from school to school, and it doesn't necessarily depend on how much a school decreases its own class size. And of course, there will still be more people graduating from those schools than there are jobs.

^that's my point

otnemem
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Re: GW $$$$ vs UVA no $

Postby otnemem » Sun Feb 10, 2013 5:47 pm

dingbat wrote:
otnemem wrote: schools should, on average, put something like 15% more people into full time legal jobs in 2016 than they did in 2011. Now of course, that will vary from school to school, and it doesn't necessarily depend on how much a school decreases its own class size. And of course, there will still be more people graduating from those schools than there are jobs.

^that's my point


Yeah, I think we're more or less on the same page, I just wasn't that articulate in my first post.

dissonance1848
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Re: GW $$$$ vs UVA no $

Postby dissonance1848 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:14 pm

I do not understand these choices. Where the hell are the other schools ?

Surely OP applied to Michigan, Penn, Vandy, etc.?

Anyways, the OP really needs to state explicitly 1) How much money is GW giving them, and 2) what are their stats. Seriously, without these two facts, its all speculative bullshit.

As to the hoped for reductions in class sizes, dream the fuck on.

I read somewhere that only a 149 LSAT and like a 3.0 GPA are needed for general Bar passage. Sorry, but the ttttttt schools are going to admit everyone now, so if class sizes do fall, it won't be under 40k, as opposed to 48k in 2000. And sorry, but the number of legal jobs has fallen far more than will the number of law school grads.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: GW $$$$ vs UVA no $

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sun Feb 10, 2013 6:34 pm

dissonance1848 wrote:As to the hoped for reductions in class sizes, dream the fuck on.

I read somewhere that only a 149 LSAT and like a 3.0 GPA are needed for general Bar passage. Sorry, but the ttttttt schools are going to admit everyone now, so if class sizes do fall, it won't be under 40k, as opposed to 48k in 2000. And sorry, but the number of legal jobs has fallen far more than will the number of law school grads.

This will be the third straight year of declining first year enrollment. 52,000 in 2010 down to about 44,000 this past fall, and expected to decline much more this year. Still a long ways away but heading in the right direction. Remember that attrition takes about 10% of that number too, and hopefully attrition increases as people realize how shitty things are.

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5ky
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Re: GW $$$$ vs UVA no $

Postby 5ky » Mon Feb 11, 2013 2:42 am

BruceWayne wrote:If we're talking about a scholarship at GW that allows you to graduate with less than 100K in debt, GW and it's not even close. I am a UVA 3L who took the school at sticker. HTH.


I agree with this (UVA 3L non-sticker -- I wouldn't have come at sticker).

If you have great DC ties, then I'd encourage GW even more, especially if you could talk yourself into a low-level Hill job as a backup.

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anon sequitur
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Re: GW $$$$ vs UVA no $

Postby anon sequitur » Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:01 pm

"$$$$" at GW is pretty meaningless, what is your COA and expected debt upon graduation?

005618502
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Re: GW $$$$ vs UVA no $

Postby 005618502 » Sat Mar 09, 2013 1:49 pm

UVAIce wrote:I go to UVA and love it. I have a job with a NLJ250 firm for the summer; I am a 1L. Everyone that I know who is a 2L has a job for the summer - yes this is extremely anecdotal. I do know a few 3Ls that don't have anything super lined up.

I would not attend UVA at sticker. Trust me when I say that you just don't always know where you're going to end up in the class rank wise. I have a friend who was admitted to HYS and came to UVA for the money and is sitting a hair below median. However, UVA is really an awesome place. Where are you from and where do you want to work. If your only goal is NYC or DC then I would hesitate to come to UVA at sticker. But if you're from the South, especially Texas, then sticker would not be as much of a risk.


Another 1L here with multiple 1L SA's this summer. I had 5 offers for biglaw, market paying, firm work for this summer. I also have 4-5 1L friends who will also be at firms this summer. Every 2L I know (again, anecdotal) has something lined up with market pay unless they are going the gov/PI route.

I had a similar decision and havent regretted my decision for even 1 minute. Honestly, and this could just be the people I know, people are killing it at UVA these days.

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plenipotentiary
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Re: GW $$$$ vs UVA no $

Postby plenipotentiary » Mon Mar 11, 2013 12:51 pm

AssumptionRequired wrote:
UVAIce wrote:I go to UVA and love it. I have a job with a NLJ250 firm for the summer; I am a 1L. Everyone that I know who is a 2L has a job for the summer - yes this is extremely anecdotal. I do know a few 3Ls that don't have anything super lined up.

I would not attend UVA at sticker. Trust me when I say that you just don't always know where you're going to end up in the class rank wise. I have a friend who was admitted to HYS and came to UVA for the money and is sitting a hair below median. However, UVA is really an awesome place. Where are you from and where do you want to work. If your only goal is NYC or DC then I would hesitate to come to UVA at sticker. But if you're from the South, especially Texas, then sticker would not be as much of a risk.


Another 1L here with multiple 1L SA's this summer. I had 5 offers for biglaw, market paying, firm work for this summer. I also have 4-5 1L friends who will also be at firms this summer. Every 2L I know (again, anecdotal) has something lined up with market pay unless they are going the gov/PI route.

I had a similar decision and havent regretted my decision for even 1 minute. Honestly, and this could just be the people I know, people are killing it at UVA these days.


I would undoubtedly take UVA at sticker in OP's position. But I think you're painting an unduly rosy picture. I'm a 2L at UVA and I know plenty of people who are unemployed. I know the employment status of pretty much every person from my 1L section and I would estimate that a 1/3 of them don't have market-paying gigs. I know several people who are going the PI route because they struck out at OGI.

Also, I love my law school, but if you honestly haven't spent even one minute doubting your decision (even during journal tryouts?), I think you must be having the best 1L experience in the history of the world. So, congrats.

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UVAIce
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Re: GW $$$$ vs UVA no $

Postby UVAIce » Mon Mar 11, 2013 1:37 pm

plenipotentiary wrote:
AssumptionRequired wrote:
UVAIce wrote:I go to UVA and love it. I have a job with a NLJ250 firm for the summer; I am a 1L. Everyone that I know who is a 2L has a job for the summer - yes this is extremely anecdotal. I do know a few 3Ls that don't have anything super lined up.

I would not attend UVA at sticker. Trust me when I say that you just don't always know where you're going to end up in the class rank wise. I have a friend who was admitted to HYS and came to UVA for the money and is sitting a hair below median. However, UVA is really an awesome place. Where are you from and where do you want to work. If your only goal is NYC or DC then I would hesitate to come to UVA at sticker. But if you're from the South, especially Texas, then sticker would not be as much of a risk.


Another 1L here with multiple 1L SA's this summer. I had 5 offers for biglaw, market paying, firm work for this summer. I also have 4-5 1L friends who will also be at firms this summer. Every 2L I know (again, anecdotal) has something lined up with market pay unless they are going the gov/PI route.

I had a similar decision and havent regretted my decision for even 1 minute. Honestly, and this could just be the people I know, people are killing it at UVA these days.


I would undoubtedly take UVA at sticker in OP's position. But I think you're painting an unduly rosy picture. I'm a 2L at UVA and I know plenty of people who are unemployed. I know the employment status of pretty much every person from my 1L section and I would estimate that a 1/3 of them don't have market-paying gigs. I know several people who are going the PI route because they struck out at OGI.

Also, I love my law school, but if you honestly haven't spent even one minute doubting your decision (even during journal tryouts?), I think you must be having the best 1L experience in the history of the world. So, congrats.


I have not doubted my decision since classes have started. UVA is an awesome place. Admittedly there are a number of reasons that UVA has worked out well for me compared to other folks. First, I'm targeting a secondary market that essentially grades the T14 as HYS and "national schools." I would not have gotten a huge boost in my home market by attending CLS, Penn, etc., as they would hire from any of those schools at median. I will say this, I was in the top 10% of the class after the 1st semester and was still ranked second behind a SLS 1L in terms of hiring preference - the firm where I will be working this summer chose to hire two 1Ls this summer. That all being said, my home market is NOT in the South (Minnesota) and literally every 1L I know from the South who is above median has a firm job in or near their home market. I also know some people who are medianish (some slightly below and some slightly above), are not URMs, don't have extreme work experience, and have 1L firm gigs this summer.

I also have the feeling more and more that personality, job search skills, prior work experience (not being a kid), target markets, and self-selection have a lot more to do with job outcomes than TLS really likes to admit. From what I have seen so far, people with substantive work experience are CLEANING up. If you are STEM and have prior work experience in a STEM field you will not be unemployed, unless you have all C's and suck at life. If you have real work experience, something beyond teaching English in a foreign country, you will do well. There are also lots of weird intangibles, such as the fact that OGI will be tough if you look like you were hit in the face with a sledge hammer. It will also be tough if you don't want to work anywhere but NYC or DC, went to a non-elite UG, have median grades, and generally suck at communicating. I am amazed how many law school students cannot hold a regular conversation. Watching 1Ls at a law firm event is like watching a bunch of 13 year old boys try to ask their crushes out; it's pathetic 90% of the time.

Sticker at UVA is not cheap. Admittedly, I am not paying full price at UVA and that is why I can "afford" to take a job in Minnesota after graduation and "only" make $110K a year. Having $250K in debt and not having a market paying job would not be fun financially, but you also wouldn't really be in that terrible of a spot. I also don't think you should be getting a JD to just make money. You should have some kind of real interest in what lawyers actually do if you are going to law school. I'm also happy to be going someplace where I can bill 1,900 hours and be a super star; there is no point to living if you can't fish on the weekend.

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Law Sauce
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Re: GW $$$$ vs UVA no $

Postby Law Sauce » Mon Mar 11, 2013 11:17 pm

I feel the doom and gloom numbers about UVa in this thread are a little out of date (I know that they represent the current available numbers but they are mostly numbers from the low point of the recession). I would be very surprised if less than 60+% of UVa got Biglaw or clerkship/Biglaw jobs out of my class; current 2Ls. I went to UVa at sticker and I think that it was a good choice for me. Obviously there is some significant risk, but I feel confident that I could have landed something that would have made it worth while from most (not all) grade points in the class by working hard to be flexible in the job search and to represent myself the best that I could. I would say that UVa at sticker is a good investment on average.

That being said, law school for free is awesome, really awesome, but I feel like somewhere like GW is a little bit of a risk to your career of a different kind. To me this is a tough choice, but both are pretty decent options. For me, I'd probably actually lean toward GW and gunning and trying to take advantage of every opportunity I could while I was there; but that is also probably scarier to me than UVa.

Edit: after reading the rest of your posts, I changed my vote to UVa, because I think that the investment is worth it and it is a significant advantage in DC where prestige may be more important then it is elsewhere




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