Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker?

Yes
65
23%
No
212
77%
 
Total votes: 277

senorhosh
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby senorhosh » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:22 pm

Can someone explain how GPA cutoff is useful for firms without knowing how the school ranks? Or are GPA cutoffs unique for each school and calculated using (for Penn's instance) approximate ranking?

xjv177
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby xjv177 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:24 pm

3L at HYS here. Look at the LRAP/LIPP program. If it is good then you have nothing to worry about w/r/t sticker. Either they will pay your loans, or you will be rich enough to comfortably pay them off. In that situation you should go where you want.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:32 pm

xjv177 wrote:3L at HYS here. Look at the LRAP/LIPP program. If it is good then you have nothing to worry about w/r/t sticker. Either they will pay your loans, or you will be rich enough to comfortably pay them off. In that situation you should go where you want.
This is the HYS version of "let them eat cake." If you miss out on biglaw at Penn, you can't count on getting an LRAP-eligible job. Maybe it's that easy at HYS but not anywhere else.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:33 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
xjv177 wrote:3L at HYS here. Look at the LRAP/LIPP program. If it is good then you have nothing to worry about w/r/t sticker. Either they will pay your loans, or you will be rich enough to comfortably pay them off. In that situation you should go where you want.
This is the HYS version of "let them eat cake." If you miss out on biglaw at Penn, you can't count on getting an LRAP-eligible job. Maybe it's that easy at HYS but not anywhere else.

LIPP also covers some private sector work.

xjv177
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby xjv177 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:34 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
xjv177 wrote:3L at HYS here. Look at the LRAP/LIPP program. If it is good then you have nothing to worry about w/r/t sticker. Either they will pay your loans, or you will be rich enough to comfortably pay them off. In that situation you should go where you want.
This is the HYS version of "let them eat cake." If you miss out on biglaw at Penn, you can't count on getting an LRAP-eligible job. Maybe it's that easy at HYS but not anywhere else.


That depends on the LRAP program. I intended to say that the poster should look at that before plunging. But if he/she wants to work in an area not covered by LRAP then yes I agree with this post.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:40 pm

xjv177 wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:
xjv177 wrote:3L at HYS here. Look at the LRAP/LIPP program. If it is good then you have nothing to worry about w/r/t sticker. Either they will pay your loans, or you will be rich enough to comfortably pay them off. In that situation you should go where you want.
This is the HYS version of "let them eat cake." If you miss out on biglaw at Penn, you can't count on getting an LRAP-eligible job. Maybe it's that easy at HYS but not anywhere else.


That depends on the LRAP program. I intended to say that the poster should look at that before plunging. But if he/she wants to work in an area not covered by LRAP then yes I agree with this post.

It's somewhat irresponsible advice. There are very few (maybe no?) non-HYS LRAP programs that cover non-public interest work. PI jobs are just as hard to come by as biglaw jobs in this economy for most people. There is a not-insignificant chance that neither "they will pay their loans," nor "you will be rich," will be the case. If you WANT to do public interest work, then yeah, LRAP is really important, but it's ridiculous to tell someone thinking about going to Penn that they should plan to rely on it as a safety net.

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JCougar
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby JCougar » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:46 pm

senorhosh wrote:Can someone explain how GPA cutoff is useful for firms without knowing how the school ranks? Or are GPA cutoffs unique for each school and calculated using (for Penn's instance) approximate ranking?


The grade cutoffs are different for each school. They're really concerned about your class rank rather than your actual GPA. As in, an elite firm might have a cutoff of top 50% from HYS, top 33% from CCN, and Top 20% from MPVB, top 10% NDCG, and top 2% from ranks 15-25.

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megagnarley
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby megagnarley » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:58 pm

JCougar wrote:
senorhosh wrote:Can someone explain how GPA cutoff is useful for firms without knowing how the school ranks? Or are GPA cutoffs unique for each school and calculated using (for Penn's instance) approximate ranking?


The grade cutoffs are different for each school. They're really concerned about your class rank rather than your actual GPA. As in, an elite firm might have a cutoff of top 50% from HYS, top 33% from CCN, and Top 20% from MPVB, top 10% NDCG, and top 2% from ranks 15-25.


Is this hypo or do they really dive that much further into Mich than Duke or NU?

Peer schools are not peers?

xjv177
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby xjv177 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:01 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
xjv177 wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:
xjv177 wrote:3L at HYS here. Look at the LRAP/LIPP program. If it is good then you have nothing to worry about w/r/t sticker. Either they will pay your loans, or you will be rich enough to comfortably pay them off. In that situation you should go where you want.
This is the HYS version of "let them eat cake." If you miss out on biglaw at Penn, you can't count on getting an LRAP-eligible job. Maybe it's that easy at HYS but not anywhere else.


That depends on the LRAP program. I intended to say that the poster should look at that before plunging. But if he/she wants to work in an area not covered by LRAP then yes I agree with this post.

It's somewhat irresponsible advice. There are very few (maybe no?) non-HYS LRAP programs that cover non-public interest work. PI jobs are just as hard to come by as biglaw jobs in this economy for most people. There is a not-insignificant chance that neither "they will pay their loans," nor "you will be rich," will be the case. If you WANT to do public interest work, then yeah, LRAP is really important, but it's ridiculous to tell someone thinking about going to Penn that they should plan to rely on it as a safety net.


I don't understand. You look at the job categories the LRAP covers. If you could never do those jobs and won't take the risk of not making enough money don't go to Penn. I don't see how its irresponsible to say look at the specifics of the LRAP program. Have I missed something?

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WhiteyCakes
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby WhiteyCakes » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:07 pm

xjv177 wrote:3L at HYS here. Look at the LRAP/LIPP program. If it is good then you have nothing to worry about w/r/t sticker. Either they will pay your loans, or you will be rich enough to comfortably pay them off. In that situation you should go where you want.


I said this on page one and got eaten alive

xjv177
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby xjv177 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:09 pm

WhiteyCakes wrote:
xjv177 wrote:3L at HYS here. Look at the LRAP/LIPP program. If it is good then you have nothing to worry about w/r/t sticker. Either they will pay your loans, or you will be rich enough to comfortably pay them off. In that situation you should go where you want.


I said this on page one and got eaten alive


Am I missing something to think that this is the obviously correct advice? (I guess it makes top-law-schools a less interesting forum for those schools).

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WhiteyCakes
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby WhiteyCakes » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:14 pm

xjv177 wrote:
WhiteyCakes wrote:
xjv177 wrote:3L at HYS here. Look at the LRAP/LIPP program. If it is good then you have nothing to worry about w/r/t sticker. Either they will pay your loans, or you will be rich enough to comfortably pay them off. In that situation you should go where you want.


I said this on page one and got eaten alive


Am I missing something to think that this is the obviously correct advice? (I guess it makes top-law-schools a less interesting forum for those schools).


Actually finding a good LRAP-eligible job makes me nervous. Other than that, it seems like sound advice.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby Rahviveh » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:15 pm

xjv177 wrote:
WhiteyCakes wrote:
xjv177 wrote:3L at HYS here. Look at the LRAP/LIPP program. If it is good then you have nothing to worry about w/r/t sticker. Either they will pay your loans, or you will be rich enough to comfortably pay them off. In that situation you should go where you want.


I said this on page one and got eaten alive


Am I missing something to think that this is the obviously correct advice? (I guess it makes top-law-schools a less interesting forum for those schools).

What kind of LRAP eligible jobs can you realistically get? I thought these were supposed to be harder to obtain than biglaw

xjv177
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby xjv177 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:17 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
xjv177 wrote:
WhiteyCakes wrote:
xjv177 wrote:3L at HYS here. Look at the LRAP/LIPP program. If it is good then you have nothing to worry about w/r/t sticker. Either they will pay your loans, or you will be rich enough to comfortably pay them off. In that situation you should go where you want.


I said this on page one and got eaten alive


Am I missing something to think that this is the obviously correct advice? (I guess it makes top-law-schools a less interesting forum for those schools).

What kind of LRAP eligible jobs can you realistically get? I thought these were supposed to be harder to obtain than biglaw


At my school LRAP just means public-interest under a certain salary or private-law-related-jobs under a certain salary. Check your LRAP programs is my advice! (bear in mind i am a 3L with massive loan liability who is hoping that his advice is correct).

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WhiteyCakes
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby WhiteyCakes » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:18 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
xjv177 wrote:
WhiteyCakes wrote:
xjv177 wrote:3L at HYS here. Look at the LRAP/LIPP program. If it is good then you have nothing to worry about w/r/t sticker. Either they will pay your loans, or you will be rich enough to comfortably pay them off. In that situation you should go where you want.


I said this on page one and got eaten alive


Am I missing something to think that this is the obviously correct advice? (I guess it makes top-law-schools a less interesting forum for those schools).

What kind of LRAP eligible jobs can you realistically get? I thought these were supposed to be harder to obtain than biglaw


Even though people say that a lot, I have a hard time buying into it. I imagine you just have to decide early to not pursue BigLaw and focus your resume/experiences accordingly

xjv177
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby xjv177 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:21 pm

Am I missing something to think that this is the obviously correct advice? (I guess it makes top-law-schools a less interesting forum for those schools).[/quote]
What kind of LRAP eligible jobs can you realistically get? I thought these were supposed to be harder to obtain than biglaw[/quote]

Even though people say that a lot, I have a hard time buying into it. I imagine you just have to decide early to not pursue BigLaw and focus your resume/experiences accordingly[/quote]

I don't think its beyond the capacity of prospective law students to look closely at their prospective schools' LRAP programs. They should do that! That's my advice.

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Nelson
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby Nelson » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:22 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
xjv177 wrote:
WhiteyCakes wrote:
xjv177 wrote:3L at HYS here. Look at the LRAP/LIPP program. If it is good then you have nothing to worry about w/r/t sticker. Either they will pay your loans, or you will be rich enough to comfortably pay them off. In that situation you should go where you want.


I said this on page one and got eaten alive


Am I missing something to think that this is the obviously correct advice? (I guess it makes top-law-schools a less interesting forum for those schools).

What kind of LRAP eligible jobs can you realistically get? I thought these were supposed to be harder to obtain than biglaw

That's not exactly true since it depends on what kind of public interest work you want. It's more that a public interest legal job isn't easy to get if you happen to end up in the bottom of your class with no demonstrated interest. To do impact litigation PI right out of school requires better grades than biglaw since a clerkship is almost a prerequisite for a lot of it. If you want to do direct service PI (like DA, PD, legal aid), grades are not that important but you need to show demonstrated interest all through law school so it's not really a backup plan for most people who were planning to go to a firm and then strike out.

xjv177
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby xjv177 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:24 pm

So at H/Y/S where i go, the definition for LIPP is basically just "a job that pays you under X$s. (so long as its legal; other rules for non-legal jobs)" I have no idea what other schools' LRAP is, but all im saying is LOOK.
Last edited by xjv177 on Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.

NYstate
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby NYstate » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:25 pm

Yes. You are crazy to take on that much debt and mortgage at least the next 10 years of your life on a chance you will find and keep a job. I don't understand why anyone is paying sticker to go to school in the atmosphere of declining applications.

If you want a more informative poll, get people to post whether they are 0Ls or 1Ls or grads with/ without jobs. I have a job and no debt. I would not want to be in the position of my peers who are handcuffed to their job just to pay loans. In addition, I became ill (as a third year) and had to go on long-term disability for a while before I went back to work. My firm was fantastic but I am glad I don't have to keep my biglaw job just to make ends meet.

This debt is easy to calculate and make spreadsheets and budgets about. It is easy to figure out what you think your opportunity costs are (though to me high opportunity cost means at least you have a backup to cover your loans if law doesn't work out.)

I haven't seen anyone calculate what having this debt does to your life and the choices you have to make just to repay it. Taking on this debt is more serious and more permanent than marriage. You will live with this debt until it is paid. At the worst case, you will live with it for 20 years and then pay some unknown tax amount on what is discharged.

I suppose that is where debt tolerance and risk tolerance comes in. My tolerance for having my future controlled by debt is less than zero. I like knowing that I can live where I choose and can take what job I chose without having a huge loan payment each month.

My view is that for law to work out you have to be extraordinarily lucky. I know that many people disagree and have different experiences than mine. But my experience is valid too. And so is the experiences of the people who have been stealth laid off. I'm not saying that will happen to everyone, but I know that biglaw is a very insecure career. Remember that, biglaw has no promises and people will get fired if the firm wants to keep costs down. It is just a business fact.

On the other hand, getting an LRAP job is not so easy depending on the plan. I don't know Penn's plan and this isn't just about Penn. This is the way I feel about anyone at any school taking on 6 figures of debt for such an insecure career.

I mean, I wish you well. But think a very, very, very long time before you pay sticker. Understand that interest accrues from day one. It is clear that a large number of people are starting to understand how tough the market is for lawyers. They aren't going to law school. You might ask yourself why that is.

(~sunynp - I froze my old user name because I never intended to post here again. But this is one I wanted to add my actual life experience to.)

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Nelson
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby Nelson » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:30 pm

xjv177 wrote:So at H/Y/S where i go, the definition for LIPP is basically just "a job that pays you under X$s. (so long as its legal; other rules for non-legal jobs)" I have no idea what other schools' LRAP is, but all im saying is LOOK.

This is not how Penn's LRAP works. Penn's LRAP is (like most schools not named Harvard, Stanford, or Yale) tied to federal IBR public interest forgiveness. This means that you need to spend 10 years in public interest qualifying employment (this doesn't include clerkships or private PI). Then your loans are forgiven. Your loans will continue to gain interest during those 10 years, so if you leave qualifying employment, you're worse off than where you were before.

xjv177
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby xjv177 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:31 pm

Nelson wrote:
xjv177 wrote:So at H/Y/S where i go, the definition for LIPP is basically just "a job that pays you under X$s. (so long as its legal; other rules for non-legal jobs)" I have no idea what other schools' LRAP is, but all im saying is LOOK.

This is not how Penn's LRAP works. Penn's LRAP is (like most schools not named Harvard, Stanford, or Yale) tied to federal IBR public interest forgiveness. This means that you need to spend 10 years in public interest qualifying employment (this doesn't include clerkships or private PI). Then your loans are forgiven. Your loans will continue to gain interest during those 10 years, so if you leave qualifying employment, you're worse off than where you were before.


Thats helpful advice, thanks.

xjv177
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby xjv177 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:33 pm

NYstate wrote:Yes. You are crazy to take on that much debt and mortgage at least the next 10 years of your life on a chance you will find and keep a job. I don't understand why anyone is paying sticker to go to school in the atmosphere of declining applications.

If you want a more informative poll, get people to post whether they are 0Ls or 1Ls or grads with/ without jobs. I have a job and no debt. I would not want to be in the position of my peers who are handcuffed to their job just to pay loans. In addition, I became ill (as a third year) and had to go on long-term disability for a while before I went back to work. My firm was fantastic but I am glad I don't have to keep my biglaw job just to make ends meet.

This debt is easy to calculate and make spreadsheets and budgets about. It is easy to figure out what you think your opportunity costs are (though to me high opportunity cost means at least you have a backup to cover your loans if law doesn't work out.)

I haven't seen anyone calculate what having this debt does to your life and the choices you have to make just to repay it. Taking on this debt is more serious and more permanent than marriage. You will live with this debt until it is paid. At the worst case, you will live with it for 20 years and then pay some unknown tax amount on what is discharged.

I suppose that is where debt tolerance and risk tolerance comes in. My tolerance for having my future controlled by debt is less than zero. I like knowing that I can live where I choose and can take what job I chose without having a huge loan payment each month.

My view is that for law to work out you have to be extraordinarily lucky. I know that many people disagree and have different experiences than mine. But my experience is valid too. And so is the experiences of the people who have been stealth laid off. I'm not saying that will happen to everyone, but I know that biglaw is a very insecure career. Remember that, biglaw has no promises and people will get fired if the firm wants to keep costs down. It is just a business fact.

On the other hand, getting an LRAP job is not so easy depending on the plan. I don't know Penn's plan and this isn't just about Penn. This is the way I feel about anyone at any school taking on 6 figures of debt for such an insecure career.

I mean, I wish you well. But think a very, very, very long time before you pay sticker. Understand that interest accrues from day one. It is clear that a large number of people are starting to understand how tough the market is for lawyers. They aren't going to law school. You might ask yourself why that is.

(~sunynp - I froze my old user name because I never intended to post here again. But this is one I wanted to add my actual life experience to.)


Listen to this person's life experience. (listen to my posts too (as a 3L)!. He/she has valuable advice IMO by virtue of having done it. That said, I think that a really close analysis of Penn's LRAP program is the way to go.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:36 pm

NYstate wrote:Yes. You are crazy to take on that much debt and mortgage at least the next 10 years of your life on a chance you will find and keep a job. I don't understand why anyone is paying sticker to go to school in the atmosphere of declining applications.

If you want a more informative poll, get people to post whether they are 0Ls or 1Ls or grads with/ without jobs. I have a job and no debt. I would not want to be in the position of my peers who are handcuffed to their job just to pay loans. In addition, I became ill (as a third year) and had to go on long-term disability for a while before I went back to work. My firm was fantastic but I am glad I don't have to keep my biglaw job just to make ends meet.

This debt is easy to calculate and make spreadsheets and budgets about. It is easy to figure out what you think your opportunity costs are (though to me high opportunity cost means at least you have a backup to cover your loans if law doesn't work out.)

I haven't seen anyone calculate what having this debt does to your life and the choices you have to make just to repay it. Taking on this debt is more serious and more permanent than marriage. You will live with this debt until it is paid. At the worst case, you will live with it for 20 years and then pay some unknown tax amount on what is discharged.

I suppose that is where debt tolerance and risk tolerance comes in. My tolerance for having my future controlled by debt is less than zero. I like knowing that I can live where I choose and can take what job I chose without having a huge loan payment each month.

My view is that for law to work out you have to be extraordinarily lucky. I know that many people disagree and have different experiences than mine. But my experience is valid too. And so is the experiences of the people who have been stealth laid off. I'm not saying that will happen to everyone, but I know that biglaw is a very insecure career. Remember that, biglaw has no promises and people will get fired if the firm wants to keep costs down. It is just a business fact.

On the other hand, getting an LRAP job is not so easy depending on the plan. I don't know Penn's plan and this isn't just about Penn. This is the way I feel about anyone at any school taking on 6 figures of debt for such an insecure career.

I mean, I wish you well. But think a very, very, very long time before you pay sticker. Understand that interest accrues from day one. It is clear that a large number of people are starting to understand how tough the market is for lawyers. They aren't going to law school. You might ask yourself why that is.

(~sunynp - I froze my old user name because I never intended to post here again. But this is one I wanted to add my actual life experience to.)


And yeah that about sums it up. People don't want to hear it but this post describes the reality of sticker debt at a top 14. HYS have their incredible LRAP's to cover you but outside of that this is what you're looking at.


People also need to look at who is giving the advice in terms of their qualifications. This is EXACTLY the kind of person you want advice from. A lot of people who are arguing vehemently against this and what I, JCougar, and dixiecup are saying are damn 0 and 1Ls. Quite frankly, they have no damn idea what the hell they are talking about. This type of poster is the best person to get advice from. Although they're going to be harder to find on here (as actual practicing attorneys) and after that 3Ls are your best bet. To be honest even 2Ls aren't that great since they haven't worked their 2L summer firm jobs or gotten through the stage where they will get an offer (or not). 1Ls are borderline worthless for this type of thing. I don't even need to say anything about 0Ls.

xjv177
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby xjv177 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:39 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
NYstate wrote:Yes. You are crazy to take on that much debt and mortgage at least the next 10 years of your life on a chance you will find and keep a job. I don't understand why anyone is paying sticker to go to school in the atmosphere of declining applications.

If you want a more informative poll, get people to post whether they are 0Ls or 1Ls or grads with/ without jobs. I have a job and no debt. I would not want to be in the position of my peers who are handcuffed to their job just to pay loans. In addition, I became ill (as a third year) and had to go on long-term disability for a while before I went back to work. My firm was fantastic but I am glad I don't have to keep my biglaw job just to make ends meet.

This debt is easy to calculate and make spreadsheets and budgets about. It is easy to figure out what you think your opportunity costs are (though to me high opportunity cost means at least you have a backup to cover your loans if law doesn't work out.)

I haven't seen anyone calculate what having this debt does to your life and the choices you have to make just to repay it. Taking on this debt is more serious and more permanent than marriage. You will live with this debt until it is paid. At the worst case, you will live with it for 20 years and then pay some unknown tax amount on what is discharged.

I suppose that is where debt tolerance and risk tolerance comes in. My tolerance for having my future controlled by debt is less than zero. I like knowing that I can live where I choose and can take what job I chose without having a huge loan payment each month.

My view is that for law to work out you have to be extraordinarily lucky. I know that many people disagree and have different experiences than mine. But my experience is valid too. And so is the experiences of the people who have been stealth laid off. I'm not saying that will happen to everyone, but I know that biglaw is a very insecure career. Remember that, biglaw has no promises and people will get fired if the firm wants to keep costs down. It is just a business fact.

On the other hand, getting an LRAP job is not so easy depending on the plan. I don't know Penn's plan and this isn't just about Penn. This is the way I feel about anyone at any school taking on 6 figures of debt for such an insecure career.

I mean, I wish you well. But think a very, very, very long time before you pay sticker. Understand that interest accrues from day one. It is clear that a large number of people are starting to understand how tough the market is for lawyers. They aren't going to law school. You might ask yourself why that is.

(~sunynp - I froze my old user name because I never intended to post here again. But this is one I wanted to add my actual life experience to.)


And yeah that about sums it up. People don't want to hear it but this post describes the reality of sticker debt at a top 14. HYS have their incredible LRAP's to cover you but outside of that this is what you're looking at.


People also need to look at who is giving the advice in terms of their qualifications. This is EXACTLY the kind of person you want advice from. A lot of people who are arguing vehemently against this and what I, JCougar, and dixiecup are saying are damn 0 and 1Ls. Quite frankly, they have no damn idea what the hell they are talking about.


Well i'm here to give advice (tonight because i'm snowed in). (3L at H/Y/(i won't pretend stanford is snowed in). I totally understand that debt is not the best subject for someone still in law school to give advice on though. So plan accordingly.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:43 pm

xjv177 wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
NYstate wrote:Yes. You are crazy to take on that much debt and mortgage at least the next 10 years of your life on a chance you will find and keep a job. I don't understand why anyone is paying sticker to go to school in the atmosphere of declining applications.

If you want a more informative poll, get people to post whether they are 0Ls or 1Ls or grads with/ without jobs. I have a job and no debt. I would not want to be in the position of my peers who are handcuffed to their job just to pay loans. In addition, I became ill (as a third year) and had to go on long-term disability for a while before I went back to work. My firm was fantastic but I am glad I don't have to keep my biglaw job just to make ends meet.

This debt is easy to calculate and make spreadsheets and budgets about. It is easy to figure out what you think your opportunity costs are (though to me high opportunity cost means at least you have a backup to cover your loans if law doesn't work out.)

I haven't seen anyone calculate what having this debt does to your life and the choices you have to make just to repay it. Taking on this debt is more serious and more permanent than marriage. You will live with this debt until it is paid. At the worst case, you will live with it for 20 years and then pay some unknown tax amount on what is discharged.

I suppose that is where debt tolerance and risk tolerance comes in. My tolerance for having my future controlled by debt is less than zero. I like knowing that I can live where I choose and can take what job I chose without having a huge loan payment each month.

My view is that for law to work out you have to be extraordinarily lucky. I know that many people disagree and have different experiences than mine. But my experience is valid too. And so is the experiences of the people who have been stealth laid off. I'm not saying that will happen to everyone, but I know that biglaw is a very insecure career. Remember that, biglaw has no promises and people will get fired if the firm wants to keep costs down. It is just a business fact.

On the other hand, getting an LRAP job is not so easy depending on the plan. I don't know Penn's plan and this isn't just about Penn. This is the way I feel about anyone at any school taking on 6 figures of debt for such an insecure career.

I mean, I wish you well. But think a very, very, very long time before you pay sticker. Understand that interest accrues from day one. It is clear that a large number of people are starting to understand how tough the market is for lawyers. They aren't going to law school. You might ask yourself why that is.

(~sunynp - I froze my old user name because I never intended to post here again. But this is one I wanted to add my actual life experience to.)


And yeah that about sums it up. People don't want to hear it but this post describes the reality of sticker debt at a top 14. HYS have their incredible LRAP's to cover you but outside of that this is what you're looking at.


People also need to look at who is giving the advice in terms of their qualifications. This is EXACTLY the kind of person you want advice from. A lot of people who are arguing vehemently against this and what I, JCougar, and dixiecup are saying are damn 0 and 1Ls. Quite frankly, they have no damn idea what the hell they are talking about.


Well i'm here to give advice (tonight because i'm snowed in). (3L at H/Y/(i won't pretend stanford is snowed in). I totally understand that debt is not the best subject for someone still in law school to give advice on though. So plan accordingly.



You're a 3L--you're a great person to be giving out advice. None of us are as good as practicing attorneys like the poster I quoted but we're the next best thing because we are ACTUALLY facing this market with debt right now (essentially right now--I mean unfortunately it's February so we are going to be out in the "real" world in a couple of months).

The only bad thing about your advice is it's colored by a LRAP that covers your ass no matter what and a degree that can get you biglaw in markets where you don't even have ties lol. The rest of us can't identify with that. To be honest, with those qualities I do understand recommending sticker debt. I mean you're LIPP is damn ridiculous--it essentially covers "shitlaw" lol. That really lets you know how loaded Harvard is.




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