Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

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Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker?

Yes
65
23%
No
212
77%
 
Total votes: 277

senorhosh
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby senorhosh » Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:14 pm

SportsFan wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:What are the actual cutoffs you keep referring to? At what point is a UVA or P student SOL? Below Top third? Median?

I asked earlier in the thread because I'm also extremely curious about this. Problem is, we have basically no actual information. I think the one piece of evidence we do have is that S&C couldn't give a callback to anyone at Michigan below a 3.7, which while interesting, isn't actually useful to anyone other than Michigan students with below a 3.7 who were thinking about bidding on S&C.



yeah I asked the same thing in my previous post but haven't received a real response yet. Basically, we know that MVP is treated the same at certain elite firms but what about the rest of v100?

senorhosh wrote:I know there are GPA cutoffs for firms but the only thing I read about GPA cutoffs is one thread where Bruce Wayne quotes another thread. It does give information on SOME firms but firms like DPW, Cleary, and Weil. These are firms that have cutoffs are the higher end of the class. How is using this information to extrapolate how the rest of NYC treats MVP students relative to each other useful? For all we know, these firms might treat MVP the same but firms with lower GPA cutoffs might have a lower cutoff for Penn.
The quoted thread:
http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 8&start=25


Because in the end, SOMETHING is responsible for Penn's placement ability.
Last edited by senorhosh on Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:16 pm

SportsFan wrote:I asked earlier in the thread because I'm also extremely curious about this. Problem is, we have basically no actual information. I think the one piece of evidence we do have is that S&C couldn't give a callback to anyone at Michigan below a 3.7, which while interesting, isn't actually useful to anyone other than Michigan students with below a 3.7 who were thinking about bidding on S&C.


The annoying thing about cutoffs, or rather the annoying thing about law schools, is that the data for them is fiercely guarded. Schools give them out to 2Ls and many of them actually make you agree not to give out the data because it's an "honor violation" (lmao) etc. They also vary by school. The only way you're going to get them if you aren't in law school is from a law student who has them. I've sent out the charts for Northwestern and Michigan before. You just have to ask around and hope people are willing to share. Of course the irony in all of this is that this info is actually the most important consideration when deciding whether to attend a school at sticker.
Last edited by BruceWayne on Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SportsFan
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby SportsFan » Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:23 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
SportsFan wrote:I asked earlier in the thread because I'm also extremely curious about this. Problem is, we have basically no actual information. I think the one piece of evidence we do have is that S&C couldn't give a callback to anyone at Michigan below a 3.7, which while interesting, isn't actually useful to anyone other than Michigan students with below a 3.7 who were thinking about bidding on S&C.


The annoying thing about cutoffs, or rather the annoying thing about law schools, is that the data for them is fiercely guarded. Schools give them out to 2Ls and many of them actually make you agree not to give out the data because it's an "honor violation" (lmao) etc. They also vary by school. The only way you're going to get them if you aren't in law school is from a law student who has them. I've sent out the charts for Northwestern and Michigan before. You just have to ask around and hope people are willing to share.

Fair enough. I wonder if Penn even has them though, since they're so adamant about not ranking or providing GPA's until graduation. I'm sure they have the data, though...

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BruceWayne
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:25 pm

SportsFan wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
SportsFan wrote:I asked earlier in the thread because I'm also extremely curious about this. Problem is, we have basically no actual information. I think the one piece of evidence we do have is that S&C couldn't give a callback to anyone at Michigan below a 3.7, which while interesting, isn't actually useful to anyone other than Michigan students with below a 3.7 who were thinking about bidding on S&C.


The annoying thing about cutoffs, or rather the annoying thing about law schools, is that the data for them is fiercely guarded. Schools give them out to 2Ls and many of them actually make you agree not to give out the data because it's an "honor violation" (lmao) etc. They also vary by school. The only way you're going to get them if you aren't in law school is from a law student who has them. I've sent out the charts for Northwestern and Michigan before. You just have to ask around and hope people are willing to share.

Fair enough. I wonder if Penn even has them though, since they're so adamant about not ranking or providing GPA's until graduation. I'm sure they have the data, though...


They have it. FlightoftheEarls was able to get a peek at their data. The interesting thing about it was that the cutoffs were roughly the same as they were at UVA, Michigan, and NU. Even when schools have different curves, it seems that the firms are still able to figure what rank equates to at each. This also means that things like the size of the school and it's students' choice in market can make a difference in employment stats.

SportsFan
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby SportsFan » Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:31 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
SportsFan wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
SportsFan wrote:I asked earlier in the thread because I'm also extremely curious about this. Problem is, we have basically no actual information. I think the one piece of evidence we do have is that S&C couldn't give a callback to anyone at Michigan below a 3.7, which while interesting, isn't actually useful to anyone other than Michigan students with below a 3.7 who were thinking about bidding on S&C.


The annoying thing about cutoffs, or rather the annoying thing about law schools, is that the data for them is fiercely guarded. Schools give them out to 2Ls and many of them actually make you agree not to give out the data because it's an "honor violation" (lmao) etc. They also vary by school. The only way you're going to get them if you aren't in law school is from a law student who has them. I've sent out the charts for Northwestern and Michigan before. You just have to ask around and hope people are willing to share.

Fair enough. I wonder if Penn even has them though, since they're so adamant about not ranking or providing GPA's until graduation. I'm sure they have the data, though...


They have it. FlightoftheEarls was able to get a peek at their data. The interesting thing about it was that the cutoffs were roughly the same as they were at UVA, Michigan, and NU. Even when schools have different curves, it seems that the firms are still able to figure what rank equates to at each. This also means that things like the size of the school and it's students' choice in market can make a difference in employment stats.

Do we have any idea how the MVP cutoffs are related to the cutoffs at CCN?

rcthebigred1
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby rcthebigred1 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:33 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
SportsFan wrote:I asked earlier in the thread because I'm also extremely curious about this. Problem is, we have basically no actual information. I think the one piece of evidence we do have is that S&C couldn't give a callback to anyone at Michigan below a 3.7, which while interesting, isn't actually useful to anyone other than Michigan students with below a 3.7 who were thinking about bidding on S&C.


The annoying thing about cutoffs, or rather the annoying thing about law schools, is that the data for them is fiercely guarded. Schools give them out to 2Ls and many of them actually make you agree not to give out the data because it's an "honor violation" (lmao) etc. They also vary by school. The only way you're going to get them if you aren't in law school is from a law student who has them. I've sent out the charts for Northwestern and Michigan before. You just have to ask around and hope people are willing to share. Of course the irony in all of this is that this info is actually the most important consideration when deciding whether to attend a school at sticker.


Do you happen to have links to that Northwestern and Michigan data?

ercmilla
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby ercmilla » Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:21 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
SportsFan wrote:I asked earlier in the thread because I'm also extremely curious about this. Problem is, we have basically no actual information. I think the one piece of evidence we do have is that S&C couldn't give a callback to anyone at Michigan below a 3.7, which while interesting, isn't actually useful to anyone other than Michigan students with below a 3.7 who were thinking about bidding on S&C.


The annoying thing about cutoffs, or rather the annoying thing about law schools, is that the data for them is fiercely guarded. Schools give them out to 2Ls and many of them actually make you agree not to give out the data because it's an "honor violation" (lmao) etc. They also vary by school. The only way you're going to get them if you aren't in law school is from a law student who has them. I've sent out the charts for Northwestern and Michigan before. You just have to ask around and hope people are willing to share. Of course the irony in all of this is that this info is actually the most important consideration when deciding whether to attend a school at sticker.



Here's what we know: ~60% of stundents per year get biglaw. ~10% students per year get federal clerkships. ~5%-10% per year either made it into biglaw, but don't want it or made it into federal clerkships/biglaw and don't want it (these people go into other things like PI, Gov, etc.). This is speculation, but I'd imagine it's a non-trivial amount that I assume to be 5-10%. You can fight me here if you wish. I won't have a good argument. Let me know if you agree with my estimates.

Okay...so if we're cool with these numbers, Penn places roughly 80% in "good outcomes" based on last year figures alone. I speculate that this year's figures will be better due to economic indicators. What's your beef with this?

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JCougar
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby JCougar » Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:27 pm

God...arguing with 0Ls and 1Ls as to whether GPA cutoffs even at elite schools exist is like trying to tell a 5-year old that there's no Santa Claus.

There certainly are cutoffs. They get lower as you go down the V100. But there's also another 150 "Biglaw" firms in the NLJ 250 outside the V100. These firms also mostly have cutoffs, but they are just lower.

This isn't just some BS that some TLS trolls are making up to scare you. It's a fact of life. It's the entire reason TLS encourages you to use a "smart bid strategy." If your school does lottery interviews and you have median grades and only apply to elite firms, you will strike out. Because even at schools like Penn, the V10, etc. have grade cutoffs, and they won't hire you under that number.

rad lulz
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby rad lulz » Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:29 pm

Cutoffs don't go lower as you go down the vault. The distribution is somewhat more random.

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hume85
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby hume85 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:31 pm

JCougar wrote:God...arguing with 0Ls and 1Ls as to whether GPA cutoffs even at elite schools exist is like trying to tell a 5-year old that there's no Santa Claus.

There certainly are cutoffs. They get lower as you go down the V100. But there's also another 150 "Biglaw" firms in the NLJ 250 outside the V100. These firms also mostly have cutoffs, but they are just lower.

This isn't just some BS that some TLS trolls are making up to scare you. It's a fact of life. It's the entire reason TLS encourages you to use a "smart bid strategy." If your school does lottery interviews and you have median grades and only apply to elite firms, you will strike out. Because even at schools like Penn, the V10, etc. have grade cutoffs, and they won't hire you under that number.


With whom are you arguing?

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JCougar
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby JCougar » Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:52 pm

ercmilla wrote:Here's what we know: ~60% of stundents per year get biglaw. ~10% students per year get federal clerkships. ~5%-10% per year either made it into biglaw, but don't want it or made it into federal clerkships/biglaw and don't want it (these people go into other things like PI, Gov, etc.). This is speculation, but I'd imagine it's a non-trivial amount that I assume to be 5-10%. You can fight me here if you wish. I won't have a good argument. Let me know if you agree with my estimates.

Okay...so if we're cool with these numbers, Penn places roughly 80% in "good outcomes" based on last year figures alone. I speculate that this year's figures will be better due to economic indicators. What's your beef with this?


58% get NLJ 250 firms, quite a few of which are outside the V100 but still pay at or pretty near market, and end up still being good outcomes The V100 will have higer GPA cutoffs, and the V25 will still want top third grades, etc. Not all people who clerk are Article III clerks. A lot of times, clerkships are last-ditch efforts to get someone who is otherwise unemployable a job. You can clerk for state district court, administrative law judges, all kinds of other judgeships, many of which aren't really a "feather in your resume cap."

Anyhow, most of the people that end up doing PI end up doing so after they've struck out from Biglaw/clerkships. PI is a backup plan for almost everyone. And the people that do prestigious PI usually have good enough grades to get a good clerkship, so there's overlap there. Even for a career in prestigious PI, a federal clerkship is very valuable. There's far less than 5-10% that have biglaw/clerkship options but turn them down. It's more like a handful of people...1-2% of the class at most. Especially if they went to Penn at sticker. No one wants to gamble their entire debt on being able to keep a PI job for 10 years using IBR. If you work 9.5 years and your PI firm goes under, you get zero loan forgiveness, and end up owing more money 9.5 years out than you did when you graduated, due to compounding interest. The safer bet is to just jump into Biglaw for as long as you can stand it and pay down a ton of debt as fast as you can.

Bottom line is that the bottom third of the Penn class is very hit or miss. The ones that are getting good jobs with those grades are because they did very well in moot court/have family connections/have awesome work experience, etc.

Those are still enviable employment outcomes, but lets not get fooled into thinking that you can't go to Penn and land flat on your face.

That's just straight out of school though. About 50% of those that do get Biglaw will not be there for more than 3-4 years.

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JCougar
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby JCougar » Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:53 pm

rad lulz wrote:Cutoffs don't go lower as you go down the vault. The distribution is somewhat more random.


That's roughly true, but if you're talking about stuff in the 100-250 range, there is that effect.

rad lulz
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby rad lulz » Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:58 pm

JCougar wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Cutoffs don't go lower as you go down the vault. The distribution is somewhat more random.


That's roughly true, but if you're talking about stuff in the 100-250 range, there is that effect.

Vault goes past 100?

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JCougar
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby JCougar » Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:01 pm

rad lulz wrote:
JCougar wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Cutoffs don't go lower as you go down the vault. The distribution is somewhat more random.


That's roughly true, but if you're talking about stuff in the 100-250 range, there is that effect.

Vault goes past 100?


I'm conflating the NLJ 250 and the Vault rankings here, but there's a lot of correlation.

The 58% "Biglaw" being discussed in this thread is NLJ 250, obviously.

SportsFan
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby SportsFan » Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:04 pm

JCougar wrote:God...arguing with 0Ls and 1Ls as to whether GPA cutoffs even at elite schools exist is like trying to tell a 5-year old that there's no Santa Claus.

There certainly are cutoffs. They get lower as you go down the V100. But there's also another 150 "Biglaw" firms in the NLJ 250 outside the V100. These firms also mostly have cutoffs, but they are just lower.

This isn't just some BS that some TLS trolls are making up to scare you. It's a fact of life. It's the entire reason TLS encourages you to use a "smart bid strategy." If your school does lottery interviews and you have median grades and only apply to elite firms, you will strike out. Because even at schools like Penn, the V10, etc. have grade cutoffs, and they won't hire you under that number.

Who is saying cutoffs don't exist and that bidding all the V10 if you're median at Penn if a good idea? :?

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JCougar
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby JCougar » Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:12 pm

SportsFan wrote:Who is saying cutoffs don't exist and that bidding all the V10 if you're median at Penn if a good idea? :?


Apparently, you haven't read this whole thread.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby Rahviveh » Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:19 pm

JCougar wrote:
SportsFan wrote:Who is saying cutoffs don't exist and that bidding all the V10 if you're median at Penn if a good idea? :?


Apparently, you haven't read this whole thread.

I think there was only 1 person (Dato) and I believe he is a 2L. The problem is that from a 0L's standpoint we only have placement stats to go by. Its really not feasible to start collecting grade cutoff data for all the T14's and begin comparing to figure out the classic questions of school X vs school Y. So really if you are saying that there's a certain point where our resumes will go in the trash it'd be nice to know what that point was or at least if its different across schools.

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JCougar
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby JCougar » Sat Feb 09, 2013 9:25 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:I think there was only 1 person (Dato) and I believe he is a 2L. The problem is that from a 0L's standpoint we only have placement stats to go by. Its really not feasible to start collecting grade cutoff data for all the T14's and begin comparing to figure out the classic questions of school X vs school Y. So really if you are saying that there's a certain point where our resumes will go in the trash it'd be nice to know what that point was or at least if its different across schools.


In that case, I'm probably the wrong person to ask, because my resume probably went in the trash at nearly every firm I applied to so far...so I can't tell you where that line is.

SportsFan
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby SportsFan » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:31 pm

JCougar wrote:
SportsFan wrote:Who is saying cutoffs don't exist and that bidding all the V10 if you're median at Penn if a good idea? :?


Apparently, you haven't read this whole thread.

I skimmed the first 5 pages, so you're right. :D




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