Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker?

Yes
65
23%
No
212
77%
 
Total votes: 277

rad lulz
Posts: 9844
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2012 10:53 pm

Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby rad lulz » Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:17 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
unc0mm0n1 wrote:I got offers from firms Dallas, Houston, Chicago, Boston, LA and London. I didn't apply to any New York firms but I'm sure I could have gotten an offer from there as well. I only have ties to Chicago and I guess Boston. I think people over value ties if you go to a top school. The main thing is having good grades and being able to weave a story about why you want to be in a particular area. Also being a good interviewer and having work experience doesn't hurt but I think the key is convincing your interviewer you really want to be in a certain area.


Lol obviously you can go to places where you don't have ties if you have high grades. High grades change everything in the legal world---and I mentioned that in my earlier post discussing the issue. Yes, if you pull a 3.7 at a top 14 your degree then becomes national.

Yeah he's at HYS and is black with good grades. His advice is worthless for everyone else.

User avatar
BruceWayne
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:36 pm

Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Feb 09, 2013 2:57 pm

rad lulz wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
unc0mm0n1 wrote:I got offers from firms Dallas, Houston, Chicago, Boston, LA and London. I didn't apply to any New York firms but I'm sure I could have gotten an offer from there as well. I only have ties to Chicago and I guess Boston. I think people over value ties if you go to a top school. The main thing is having good grades and being able to weave a story about why you want to be in a particular area. Also being a good interviewer and having work experience doesn't hurt but I think the key is convincing your interviewer you really want to be in a certain area.


Lol obviously you can go to places where you don't have ties if you have high grades. High grades change everything in the legal world---and I mentioned that in my earlier post discussing the issue. Yes, if you pull a 3.7 at a top 14 your degree then becomes national.

Yeah he's at HYS and is black with good grades. His advice is worthless for everyone else.


What the hell? Are you kidding me? I'm URM and his advice is worthless even for me. HYS with BAD grades can get a job in markets where they don't have ties--HYS with good grades and Black male: the only people with better job prospects than him are top 14 EICs of law review and future supreme court clerks. With his profile you could interview like crap and still come out with a big firm job.

User avatar
BruceWayne
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:36 pm

Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:01 pm

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:
Lacepiece23 wrote:I'm just going to add my two cents. It might sound ignorant as I've only read like 3 posts in this entire thread. However, everyone is basing Penn's placement on the 58% number they posted during the worst year of legal employment. I go to Cornell, and I know for almost a fact that the year after definitely outperformed this number. I think that Penn probably did too. I know its risky to guess and not go off the most recent stats available, but I think Penn's placement numbers this year will be way up from 58% to at least north of 65% maybe even as high as the mid 70%s for biglaw. Just something to consider.


I will be thrilled if this is confirmed with data, since I'm a 1L and want the legal economy to improve. I'm sceptical because if this data exists, why wouldn't the schools post it in some form?

FWIW I turned down Penn at sticker and some lower t14 with some money. I'm in law school with no debt, many interviews with top firms and prestigious pi (DOJ, federal judges) and I have zero regrets. I think Penn at sticker is just too much of a risk. I know people who are t14 with bad grades, and vault firms won't touch them and midsized/local firms think the people are overqualified or not the right fit. It's a shitty situation.

edit: 9 months after graduation is the middle of next week for Penn, and presumably around then for other schools, so if the numbers are better they should come out soon.


This is the reality--unfortunately.

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby timbs4339 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:19 pm

A perspective from a T6 grad-

The guy who said the only people who strike out at OCI and can't get biglaw are bottom 10% people or terrible personalities is lying, stupid, or he just stepped out of a time machine from 2006. That wasn't the case for me (except in the hindsight is 40/40 law school career counselor's view that if anyone struck out at CLS EIP they must have vomited on the interviewer) and it wasn't true for many of my classmates either. Granted, we were class of 2012, but I know some c/o 2013 folks who were in the same boat and from what I understand hiring still is quite depressed.

The idea that firms do not have grade cutoffs is also just wrong. The large firms with the biggest summer classes have grade cutoffs much higher than bottom 10%. At CLS it was top third and you are *just about* guaranteed a SA position. After that, it came down to your work experience, language skills, resume, and just plain luck on bidding a list of firms with lower cutoffs or who were hiring a lot of summers. NYU students had some detailed GPA cutoff info, you can try searching for those threads.

The theory that PI people don't take federal clerkships is again, just wrong. The idea that everyone who works PI or gov't is self-selecting is just wrong- it was wrong as applied to several of my friends who are still hoping to get firm jobs after their fellowships. You may be able to get it out of Penn, but PI/gov't, I think, are not for people who don't really want to be lawyers. They are not some "corporatey suity wearing job" like biglaw.

Finally, the point about it being a 40 year investment is a good point if you are a robot. Many people want to enjoy their 20s/early 30s. Spending most of your time cooped up in an office and the lowest guy on the totem pole, only so you can pay in excess of 75% of your annual income to the government (federal, state and city taxes if applicable, and loan payments), is not what people want. Don't underestimate how crappy the lifestyle is. I have a friend who after his SA often disparaged about associates who complained about the hours as "people who never held a real job." He's four months into biglaw and is already looking to quit but can't. And don't assume long hours are unique to biglaw either. I regularly put in 14 hour days as a judicial clerk.

User avatar
02889
Posts: 479
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 12:21 pm

Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby 02889 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:35 pm

timbs4339 wrote:A perspective from a T6 grad-

The guy who said the only people who strike out at OCI and can't get biglaw are bottom 10% people or terrible personalities is lying, stupid, or he just stepped out of a time machine from 2006. That wasn't the case for me (except in the hindsight is 40/40 law school career counselor's view that if anyone struck out at CLS EIP they must have vomited on the interviewer) and it wasn't true for many of my classmates either. Granted, we were class of 2012, but I know some c/o 2013 folks who were in the same boat and from what I understand hiring still is quite depressed.

The idea that firms do not have grade cutoffs is also just wrong. The large firms with the biggest summer classes have grade cutoffs much higher than bottom 10%. At CLS it was top third and you are *just about* guaranteed a SA position. After that, it came down to your work experience, language skills, resume, and just plain luck on bidding a list of firms with lower cutoffs or who were hiring a lot of summers. NYU students had some detailed GPA cutoff info, you can try searching for those threads.

The theory that PI people don't take federal clerkships is again, just wrong. The idea that everyone who works PI or gov't is self-selecting is just wrong- it was wrong as applied to several of my friends who are still hoping to get firm jobs after their fellowships. You may be able to get it out of Penn, but PI/gov't, I think, are not for people who don't really want to be lawyers. They are not some "corporatey suity wearing job" like biglaw.

Finally, the point about it being a 40 year investment is a good point if you are a robot. Many people want to enjoy their 20s/early 30s. Spending most of your time cooped up in an office and the lowest guy on the totem pole, only so you can pay in excess of 75% of your annual income to the government (federal, state and city taxes if applicable, and loan payments), is not what people want. Don't underestimate how crappy the lifestyle is. I have a friend who after his SA often disparaged about associates who complained about the hours as "people who never held a real job." He's four months into biglaw and is already looking to quit but can't. And don't assume long hours are unique to biglaw either. I regularly put in 14 hour days as a judicial clerk.

I wish more people thought like this. Everyone on this site is hyper biglaw focused, and it seems like no one has a clue that biglaw is awful. We're all concerned about whether Penn has a high enough biglaw placement rate, without thinking that biglaw means years of mostly mindless work at unpredictable and nearly always undesirable hours, surrounded by people who are anxious about getting fired but also desperate to leave. I think, despite so many posters on this site being very intelligent people, barely any of them have a good sense of what lawyers do and, despite everyone posting about how bad an investment law school is, everyone is still funneling themselves into the law school -> biglaw to pay off debt and have a job -> years of unhappiness -> escape to a job that just pays less but probably is also mindless with crappy hours.

I applaud all the posters who incessantly post about the poor economy and the difficulty of getting a biglaw associate position, but I wish more people would look at what comes next -- even if you do secure a position, do you actually understand what that job looks like and is that actually what you want to do?

User avatar
Lacepiece23
Posts: 835
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 1:10 pm

Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby Lacepiece23 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:03 pm

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:
Lacepiece23 wrote:I'm just going to add my two cents. It might sound ignorant as I've only read like 3 posts in this entire thread. However, everyone is basing Penn's placement on the 58% number they posted during the worst year of legal employment. I go to Cornell, and I know for almost a fact that the year after definitely outperformed this number. I think that Penn probably did too. I know its risky to guess and not go off the most recent stats available, but I think Penn's placement numbers this year will be way up from 58% to at least north of 65% maybe even as high as the mid 70%s for biglaw. Just something to consider.


I will be thrilled if this is confirmed with data, since I'm a 1L and want the legal economy to improve. I'm sceptical because if this data exists, why wouldn't the schools post it in some form?

FWIW I turned down Penn at sticker and some lower t14 with some money. I'm in law school with no debt, many interviews with top firms and prestigious pi (DOJ, federal judges) and I have zero regrets. I think Penn at sticker is just too much of a risk. I know people who are t14 with bad grades, and vault firms won't touch them and midsized/local firms think the people are overqualified or not the right fit. It's a shitty situation.

edit: 9 months after graduation is the middle of next week for Penn, and presumably around then for other schools, so if the numbers are better they should come out soon.


It does exist the numbers just haven't come out yet for the class of 2012. Those numbers should be available some time this spring. I know there is a lot of doom and gloom, but people always look to the class of 2011 (OCI 2009) rather then looking at the class of 2010(2008) when numbers were doubled what they were the year after. So my point is that this years number's IMO won't be as bad as 2011, but won't be as good as 2010 when the economy burst. It should be somewhere in between, and I think that will be confirmed when the new employment stats come out.

Edit: sorry didn't see your edit.

User avatar
BruceWayne
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:36 pm

Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:14 pm

timbs4339 wrote:A perspective from a T6 grad-

The guy who said the only people who strike out at OCI and can't get biglaw are bottom 10% people or terrible personalities is lying, stupid, or he just stepped out of a time machine from 2006. That wasn't the case for me (except in the hindsight is 40/40 law school career counselor's view that if anyone struck out at CLS EIP they must have vomited on the interviewer) and it wasn't true for many of my classmates either. Granted, we were class of 2012, but I know some c/o 2013 folks who were in the same boat and from what I understand hiring still is quite depressed.

The idea that firms do not have grade cutoffs is also just wrong. The large firms with the biggest summer classes have grade cutoffs much higher than bottom 10%. At CLS it was top third and you are *just about* guaranteed a SA position. After that, it came down to your work experience, language skills, resume, and just plain luck on bidding a list of firms with lower cutoffs or who were hiring a lot of summers. NYU students had some detailed GPA cutoff info, you can try searching for those threads.

The theory that PI people don't take federal clerkships is again, just wrong. The idea that everyone who works PI or gov't is self-selecting is just wrong- it was wrong as applied to several of my friends who are still hoping to get firm jobs after their fellowships. You may be able to get it out of Penn, but PI/gov't, I think, are not for people who don't really want to be lawyers. They are not some "corporatey suity wearing job" like biglaw.

Finally, the point about it being a 40 year investment is a good point if you are a robot. Many people want to enjoy their 20s/early 30s. Spending most of your time cooped up in an office and the lowest guy on the totem pole, only so you can pay in excess of 75% of your annual income to the government (federal, state and city taxes if applicable, and loan payments), is not what people want. Don't underestimate how crappy the lifestyle is. I have a friend who after his SA often disparaged about associates who complained about the hours as "people who never held a real job." He's four months into biglaw and is already looking to quit but can't. And don't assume long hours are unique to biglaw either. I regularly put in 14 hour days as a judicial clerk.



PLEASE start a solo thread with this post. There are SO many 1Ls and 0Ls on here who have no idea what they are talking about and need to hear what's actually going on from someone who has graduated--especially from the much ballyhooed "Top 6" and none other than the one treated as being borderline Yale (Columbia). Many 0L and 1L posters like Tiago Splitter, Dato, Borg, and JamesDean1955 are going around telling people that there are not grade cutoffs and that "any one who wants it" can get biglaw from a "top 6" etc. They quite frankly, clueless.

User avatar
Tiago Splitter
Posts: 15495
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:20 am

Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:17 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:A perspective from a T6 grad-

The guy who said the only people who strike out at OCI and can't get biglaw are bottom 10% people or terrible personalities is lying, stupid, or he just stepped out of a time machine from 2006. That wasn't the case for me (except in the hindsight is 40/40 law school career counselor's view that if anyone struck out at CLS EIP they must have vomited on the interviewer) and it wasn't true for many of my classmates either. Granted, we were class of 2012, but I know some c/o 2013 folks who were in the same boat and from what I understand hiring still is quite depressed.

The idea that firms do not have grade cutoffs is also just wrong. The large firms with the biggest summer classes have grade cutoffs much higher than bottom 10%. At CLS it was top third and you are *just about* guaranteed a SA position. After that, it came down to your work experience, language skills, resume, and just plain luck on bidding a list of firms with lower cutoffs or who were hiring a lot of summers. NYU students had some detailed GPA cutoff info, you can try searching for those threads.

The theory that PI people don't take federal clerkships is again, just wrong. The idea that everyone who works PI or gov't is self-selecting is just wrong- it was wrong as applied to several of my friends who are still hoping to get firm jobs after their fellowships. You may be able to get it out of Penn, but PI/gov't, I think, are not for people who don't really want to be lawyers. They are not some "corporatey suity wearing job" like biglaw.

Finally, the point about it being a 40 year investment is a good point if you are a robot. Many people want to enjoy their 20s/early 30s. Spending most of your time cooped up in an office and the lowest guy on the totem pole, only so you can pay in excess of 75% of your annual income to the government (federal, state and city taxes if applicable, and loan payments), is not what people want. Don't underestimate how crappy the lifestyle is. I have a friend who after his SA often disparaged about associates who complained about the hours as "people who never held a real job." He's four months into biglaw and is already looking to quit but can't. And don't assume long hours are unique to biglaw either. I regularly put in 14 hour days as a judicial clerk.



PLEASE start a solo thread with this post. There are SO many 1Ls and 0Ls on here who have no idea what they are talking about and need to hear what's actually going on from someone who has graduated--especially from the much ballyhooed "Top 6" and none other than the one treated as being borderline Yale (Columbia). Many 0L and 1L posters like Tiago Splitter, Dato, Borg, and JamesDean1955 are going around telling people that there are not grade cutoffs and that "any one who wants it" can get biglaw from a "top 6" etc. They quite frankly, clueless.

Jesus Christ you are a dumbfuck. I never said anything like that.

My only comment about grade cutoffs is that based on the 2011 OCI data cutoffs at CLS are obviously fairly low given that at least 70% of the class accepted a V100 offer.

http://www.law.columbia.edu/null/downlo ... _id=611272

I then went on to say that because professors are no longer required to give anything below a B most CLS students won't be automatically disqualified from BigLaw on grades alone. You went on to praise this strategy as a good one for the students and an underrated reason for why Columbia places well into BigLaw.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=198262&start=142
Last edited by Tiago Splitter on Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
20130312
Posts: 3842
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:53 pm

Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby 20130312 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:19 pm

BruceWayne wrote:PLEASE start a solo thread with this post. There are SO many 1Ls and 0Ls on here who have no idea what they are talking about and need to hear what's actually going on from someone who has graduated--especially from the much ballyhooed "Top 6" and none other than the one treated as being borderline Yale (Columbia). Many 0L and 1L posters like Tiago Splitter, Dato, Borg, and JamesDean1955 are going around telling people that there are not grade cutoffs and that "any one who wants it" can get biglaw from a "top 6" etc. They quite frankly, clueless.

Straw men are cool people.

User avatar
Nelson
Posts: 2061
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:43 am

Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby Nelson » Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:23 pm

02889 wrote:I wish more people thought like this. Everyone on this site is hyper biglaw focused, and it seems like no one has a clue that biglaw is awful. We're all concerned about whether Penn has a high enough biglaw placement rate, without thinking that biglaw means years of mostly mindless work at unpredictable and nearly always undesirable hours, surrounded by people who are anxious about getting fired but also desperate to leave. I think, despite so many posters on this site being very intelligent people, barely any of them have a good sense of what lawyers do and, despite everyone posting about how bad an investment law school is, everyone is still funneling themselves into the law school -> biglaw to pay off debt and have a job -> years of unhappiness -> escape to a job that just pays less but probably is also mindless with crappy hours.

I applaud all the posters who incessantly post about the poor economy and the difficulty of getting a biglaw associate position, but I wish more people would look at what comes next -- even if you do secure a position, do you actually understand what that job looks like and is that actually what you want to do?

Best justification:
thesealocust wrote:I'm still in law school for the same reason I went to law school. Because I hate myself. Not for love of the law, career prospects, ambition, or because I want to be a lawyer. [I] went to law school because of off-the-charts self-loathing. It brought me to law school and it keeps me here.


Edited to add: the idea that nobody knows what they're getting into is way overblown by some posters on TLS. Some people don't know what they're getting into (I'm a 1L, people who don't know what they're getting into are a significant portion of the class). But some of us were directionless 20 somethings in dead end jobs with useless degrees already working horrible hours at boring jobs and wanted to do more of the same but for decent pay.

User avatar
BruceWayne
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:36 pm

Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:01 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:Jesus Christ you are a dumbfuck. I never said anything like that.

My only comment about grade cutoffs is that based on the 2011 OCI data cutoffs at CLS are obviously fairly low given that at least 70% of the class accepted a V100 offer.

http://www.law.columbia.edu/null/downlo ... _id=611272

I then went on to say that because professors are no longer required to give anything below a B most CLS students won't be automatically disqualified from BigLaw on grades alone. You went on to praise this strategy as a good one for the students and an underrated reason for why Columbia places well into BigLaw.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=198262&start=142


Just STFU. You are a dumbass 1L spewing advice about what it's like to get a firm job etc. Your ass should have been flagged ages ago for even giving employment advice. You quite frankly don't know anything about legal employment besides what you've gleaned from this website. You have never stepped foot in a firm but yet comment constantly about the supposedly good prospects of working in one long term; further, you have never even interviewed with a big firm yet you somehow know that they don't have cutoffs---you spew BS out of your ass like you were a cow in some third world country. HTMFH.

Also I don't really know why you're linking to a few threads. You've been spewing bullshit about legal employment since you were a 0L--you might as well just sticky every thread you've ever posted in.
Last edited by BruceWayne on Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:11 pm, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
20130312
Posts: 3842
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:53 pm

Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby 20130312 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:06 pm

Image

User avatar
BruceWayne
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:36 pm

Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:08 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:Image


I'm trying to figure out where you came from/what you have to do with any of this discussion. Were you even in this thread before his last post? Are you a Tiago alt or something?

User avatar
20130312
Posts: 3842
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:53 pm

Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby 20130312 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:10 pm

See the first page brah.

Oh wait I posted after Tiago there too. Must be an alt lulz.

User avatar
BruceWayne
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:36 pm

Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:12 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:See the first page brah.

Oh wait I posted after Tiago there too. Must be an alt lulz.


I mean all you're doing is entering the thread to blow Tiago--you're not saying anything about legal employment/Penn sticker. It's a pretty reasonable assumption bruh.

User avatar
20130312
Posts: 3842
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:53 pm

Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby 20130312 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:31 pm

BruceWayne wrote:Just STFU. You are a dumbass 1L spewing advice about what it's like to get a firm job etc. Your ass should have been flagged ages ago for even giving employment advice. You quite frankly don't know anything about legal employment besides what you've gleaned from this website. You have never stepped foot in a firm but yet comment constantly about the supposedly good prospects of working in one long term; further, you have never even interviewed with a big firm yet you somehow know that they don't have cutoffs---you spew BS out of your ass like you were a cow in some third world country. HTMFH.

Also I don't really know why you're linking to a few threads. You've been spewing bullshit about legal employment since you were a 0L--you might as well just sticky every thread you've ever posted in.

Look at all the important things you said about legal employment in this- OH WAIT.

User avatar
hume85
Posts: 675
Joined: Mon Dec 05, 2011 5:38 pm

Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby hume85 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:34 pm

This thread went to shit pretty quickly.

User avatar
megagnarley
Posts: 497
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2012 1:58 am

Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby megagnarley » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:36 pm

Biglaw sounds shitty.

That is all.

timbs4339
Posts: 2733
Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2011 12:19 pm

Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby timbs4339 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:39 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:A perspective from a T6 grad-

The guy who said the only people who strike out at OCI and can't get biglaw are bottom 10% people or terrible personalities is lying, stupid, or he just stepped out of a time machine from 2006. That wasn't the case for me (except in the hindsight is 40/40 law school career counselor's view that if anyone struck out at CLS EIP they must have vomited on the interviewer) and it wasn't true for many of my classmates either. Granted, we were class of 2012, but I know some c/o 2013 folks who were in the same boat and from what I understand hiring still is quite depressed.

The idea that firms do not have grade cutoffs is also just wrong. The large firms with the biggest summer classes have grade cutoffs much higher than bottom 10%. At CLS it was top third and you are *just about* guaranteed a SA position. After that, it came down to your work experience, language skills, resume, and just plain luck on bidding a list of firms with lower cutoffs or who were hiring a lot of summers. NYU students had some detailed GPA cutoff info, you can try searching for those threads.

The theory that PI people don't take federal clerkships is again, just wrong. The idea that everyone who works PI or gov't is self-selecting is just wrong- it was wrong as applied to several of my friends who are still hoping to get firm jobs after their fellowships. You may be able to get it out of Penn, but PI/gov't, I think, are not for people who don't really want to be lawyers. They are not some "corporatey suity wearing job" like biglaw.

Finally, the point about it being a 40 year investment is a good point if you are a robot. Many people want to enjoy their 20s/early 30s. Spending most of your time cooped up in an office and the lowest guy on the totem pole, only so you can pay in excess of 75% of your annual income to the government (federal, state and city taxes if applicable, and loan payments), is not what people want. Don't underestimate how crappy the lifestyle is. I have a friend who after his SA often disparaged about associates who complained about the hours as "people who never held a real job." He's four months into biglaw and is already looking to quit but can't. And don't assume long hours are unique to biglaw either. I regularly put in 14 hour days as a judicial clerk.



PLEASE start a solo thread with this post. There are SO many 1Ls and 0Ls on here who have no idea what they are talking about and need to hear what's actually going on from someone who has graduated--especially from the much ballyhooed "Top 6" and none other than the one treated as being borderline Yale (Columbia). Many 0L and 1L posters like Tiago Splitter, Dato, Borg, and JamesDean1955 are going around telling people that there are not grade cutoffs and that "any one who wants it" can get biglaw from a "top 6" etc. They quite frankly, clueless.

Jesus Christ you are a dumbfuck. I never said anything like that.

My only comment about grade cutoffs is that based on the 2011 OCI data cutoffs at CLS are obviously fairly low given that at least 70% of the class accepted a V100 offer.

http://www.law.columbia.edu/null/downlo ... _id=611272

I then went on to say that because professors are no longer required to give anything below a B most CLS students won't be automatically disqualified from BigLaw on grades alone. You went on to praise this strategy as a good one for the students and an underrated reason for why Columbia places well into BigLaw.

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... &start=142


That could be true for some firms, and when you interview with 17-20 firms, you're bound to eventually get one with no cutoffs or low cutoffs. Remember though that the 70% doesn't mean top 70% of the class, there were a fair number of URM students with bottom 10% grades and good SAs. Transfers also skew the numbers and tend to outperform CLS natives. And bidding properly requires a lot of information about the bidding process and firm cutoffs that people don't generally know and some luck- a firm that the year before really wanted to get a bunch of CLS students and called back everyone with a pulse might decide to only call back Stone Scholars the next year. You have no way of knowing this and OCS is not particularly helpful.

So what people really should ask is not "what is the chance of getting an SA from CLS, it's "what is the chance of getting an SA from CLS with medianish grades and non IP/URM."

And of course, like law school admissions you need to take a bespoke approach- if you worked for Goldman, or have a Phd in an IP field, the grade cutoffs are looser.

User avatar
BruceWayne
Posts: 2032
Joined: Sat Aug 14, 2010 9:36 pm

Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:42 pm

InGoodFaith wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Just STFU. You are a dumbass 1L spewing advice about what it's like to get a firm job etc. Your ass should have been flagged ages ago for even giving employment advice. You quite frankly don't know anything about legal employment besides what you've gleaned from this website. You have never stepped foot in a firm but yet comment constantly about the supposedly good prospects of working in one long term; further, you have never even interviewed with a big firm yet you somehow know that they don't have cutoffs---you spew BS out of your ass like you were a cow in some third world country. HTMFH.

Also I don't really know why you're linking to a few threads. You've been spewing bullshit about legal employment since you were a 0L--you might as well just sticky every thread you've ever posted in.

Look at all the important things you said about legal employment in this- OH WAIT.


You're trying to be funny but I actually said a lot that was important to legal employment. As a general rule, people don't need to be taking too much (if any) advice about legal employment from 1Ls or 0Ls. They also shouldn't expect much meaningful info from them on the state of legal hiring. The problem with 1Ls, like Tiago, is that they have 1) Never gone through the OCI process 2) Have not tried looking for full time legal employment and 3) they haven't even seen the GPA cutoffs for the firms that attend their schools' OCI. THAT is the data/experience you need to really give someone an informed answer to something like "Should I go to Penn sticker". The best people to get that from are one's like the Columbia grad who just posted. Unfortunately you don't get too many of them posting--instead you get a ton of 0Ls and 1Ls who are heavily informed of the latest US News rankings and the latest autoadmit rumors.

User avatar
Tiago Splitter
Posts: 15495
Joined: Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:20 am

Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:46 pm

timbs4339 wrote:there were a fair number of URM students with bottom 10% grades and good SAs.

You were in good with Bruce Wayne there for a minute but he is going to flip his shit when he reads this.

User avatar
suralin
better than you
Posts: 15058
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:52 am

Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby suralin » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:49 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:A perspective from a T6 grad-

The guy who said the only people who strike out at OCI and can't get biglaw are bottom 10% people or terrible personalities is lying, stupid, or he just stepped out of a time machine from 2006. That wasn't the case for me (except in the hindsight is 40/40 law school career counselor's view that if anyone struck out at CLS EIP they must have vomited on the interviewer) and it wasn't true for many of my classmates either. Granted, we were class of 2012, but I know some c/o 2013 folks who were in the same boat and from what I understand hiring still is quite depressed.

The idea that firms do not have grade cutoffs is also just wrong. The large firms with the biggest summer classes have grade cutoffs much higher than bottom 10%. At CLS it was top third and you are *just about* guaranteed a SA position. After that, it came down to your work experience, language skills, resume, and just plain luck on bidding a list of firms with lower cutoffs or who were hiring a lot of summers. NYU students had some detailed GPA cutoff info, you can try searching for those threads.

The theory that PI people don't take federal clerkships is again, just wrong. The idea that everyone who works PI or gov't is self-selecting is just wrong- it was wrong as applied to several of my friends who are still hoping to get firm jobs after their fellowships. You may be able to get it out of Penn, but PI/gov't, I think, are not for people who don't really want to be lawyers. They are not some "corporatey suity wearing job" like biglaw.

Finally, the point about it being a 40 year investment is a good point if you are a robot. Many people want to enjoy their 20s/early 30s. Spending most of your time cooped up in an office and the lowest guy on the totem pole, only so you can pay in excess of 75% of your annual income to the government (federal, state and city taxes if applicable, and loan payments), is not what people want. Don't underestimate how crappy the lifestyle is. I have a friend who after his SA often disparaged about associates who complained about the hours as "people who never held a real job." He's four months into biglaw and is already looking to quit but can't. And don't assume long hours are unique to biglaw either. I regularly put in 14 hour days as a judicial clerk.



PLEASE start a solo thread with this post. There are SO many 1Ls and 0Ls on here who have no idea what they are talking about and need to hear what's actually going on from someone who has graduated--especially from the much ballyhooed "Top 6" and none other than the one treated as being borderline Yale (Columbia). Many 0L and 1L posters like Tiago Splitter, Dato, Borg, and JamesDean1955 are going around telling people that there are not grade cutoffs and that "any one who wants it" can get biglaw from a "top 6" etc. They quite frankly, clueless.


You generally give good advice, but really? Strawmanning much?

You know that you don't have to get hyperbolic to make a point, right?

User avatar
20130312
Posts: 3842
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:53 pm

Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby 20130312 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:53 pm

BruceWayne wrote:You're trying to be funny

--ImageRemoved--

User avatar
Rahviveh
Posts: 2271
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 12:02 pm

Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby Rahviveh » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:58 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Just STFU. You are a dumbass 1L spewing advice about what it's like to get a firm job etc. Your ass should have been flagged ages ago for even giving employment advice. You quite frankly don't know anything about legal employment besides what you've gleaned from this website. You have never stepped foot in a firm but yet comment constantly about the supposedly good prospects of working in one long term; further, you have never even interviewed with a big firm yet you somehow know that they don't have cutoffs---you spew BS out of your ass like you were a cow in some third world country. HTMFH.

Also I don't really know why you're linking to a few threads. You've been spewing bullshit about legal employment since you were a 0L--you might as well just sticky every thread you've ever posted in.

Look at all the important things you said about legal employment in this- OH WAIT.


You're trying to be funny but I actually said a lot that was important to legal employment. As a general rule, people don't need to be taking too much (if any) advice about legal employment from 1Ls or 0Ls. They also shouldn't expect much meaningful info from them on the state of legal hiring. The problem with 1Ls, like Tiago, is that they have 1) Never gone through the OCI process 2) Have not tried looking for full time legal employment and 3) they haven't even seen the GPA cutoffs for the firms that attend their schools' OCI. THAT is the data/experience you need to really give someone an informed answer to something like "Should I go to Penn sticker". The best people to get that from are one's like the Columbia grad who just posted. Unfortunately you don't get too many of them posting--instead you get a ton of 0Ls and 1Ls who are heavily informed of the latest US News rankings and the latest autoadmit rumors.


What are the actual cutoffs you keep referring to? At what point is a UVA or P student SOL? Below Top third? Median?

SportsFan
Posts: 722
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2012 5:26 pm

Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby SportsFan » Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:02 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
InGoodFaith wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Just STFU. You are a dumbass 1L spewing advice about what it's like to get a firm job etc. Your ass should have been flagged ages ago for even giving employment advice. You quite frankly don't know anything about legal employment besides what you've gleaned from this website. You have never stepped foot in a firm but yet comment constantly about the supposedly good prospects of working in one long term; further, you have never even interviewed with a big firm yet you somehow know that they don't have cutoffs---you spew BS out of your ass like you were a cow in some third world country. HTMFH.

Also I don't really know why you're linking to a few threads. You've been spewing bullshit about legal employment since you were a 0L--you might as well just sticky every thread you've ever posted in.

Look at all the important things you said about legal employment in this- OH WAIT.


You're trying to be funny but I actually said a lot that was important to legal employment. As a general rule, people don't need to be taking too much (if any) advice about legal employment from 1Ls or 0Ls. They also shouldn't expect much meaningful info from them on the state of legal hiring. The problem with 1Ls, like Tiago, is that they have 1) Never gone through the OCI process 2) Have not tried looking for full time legal employment and 3) they haven't even seen the GPA cutoffs for the firms that attend their schools' OCI. THAT is the data/experience you need to really give someone an informed answer to something like "Should I go to Penn sticker". The best people to get that from are one's like the Columbia grad who just posted. Unfortunately you don't get too many of them posting--instead you get a ton of 0Ls and 1Ls who are heavily informed of the latest US News rankings and the latest autoadmit rumors.


What are the actual cutoffs you keep referring to? At what point is a UVA or P student SOL? Below Top third? Median?

I asked earlier in the thread because I'm also extremely curious about this. Problem is, we have basically no actual information. I think the one piece of evidence we do have is that S&C couldn't give a callback to anyone at Michigan below a 3.7, which while interesting, isn't actually useful to anyone other than Michigan students with below a 3.7 who were thinking about bidding on S&C.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aquinas, Chipotle85, vintageblazers and 8 guests