Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

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Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker?

Yes
65
23%
No
212
77%
 
Total votes: 277

xjv177
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby xjv177 » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:48 pm

People also need to look at who is giving the advice in terms of their qualifications. This is EXACTLY the kind of person you want advice from. A lot of people who are arguing vehemently against this and what I, JCougar, and dixiecup are saying are damn 0 and 1Ls. Quite frankly, they have no damn idea what the hell they are talking about.[/quote]

Well i'm here to give advice (tonight because i'm snowed in). (3L at H/Y/(i won't pretend stanford is snowed in). I totally understand that debt is not the best subject for someone still in law school to give advice on though. So plan accordingly.[/quote]


You're a 3L--you're a great person to be giving out advice. None of us are as good as practicing attorneys like the poster I quoted but we're the next best thing because we are ACTUALLY facing this market with debt right now (essentially right now--I mean unfortunately it's February so we are going to be out in the "real" world in a couple of months).

The only bad thing about your advice is it's colored by a LRAP that covers your ass no matter what and a degree that can get you biglaw in markets where you don't even have ties lol. The rest of us can't identify with that. To be honest, with those qualities I do understand recommending sticker debt. I mean you're LIPP is damn ridiculous--it essentially covers "shitlaw" lol. That really lets you know how loaded Harvard is.[/quote]

Yeah well, i guess my advice was intended to be "look at your LRAP program." But yes Harvard is Harvard. If it makes you feel better, i think they lost a ton of money during the financial market crash and are now (by their standards) in dire straits.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:55 pm

BruceWayne wrote:All that being said. If your options vs. Penn sticker are bachelors degree from average U and no job lined up you're not crazy for going Penn sticker.


NYstate wrote:Yes. You are crazy to take on that much debt and mortgage at least the next 10 years of your life on a chance you will find and keep a job. I don't understand why anyone is paying sticker to go to school in the atmosphere of declining applications.


Whatever your thoughts about the craziness of Penn sticker, this guy's options really are sticker at Penn or not going to law school. With his numbers, there typically aren't any other worthwhile options. While there's a perfectly legitimate argument to be made that skipping law school is the better choice, I just want to remind everyone that someone with a 3.19/170 can't just slide down the rankings a bit and take a huge scholarship.

On that note dixiecupdrinking's point also deserves repeating. Having some family help to fall back on makes a big difference. Everyone has to take all of these circumstances into account.

xjv177
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby xjv177 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:01 am

Tiago Splitter wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:All that being said. If your options vs. Penn sticker are bachelors degree from average U and no job lined up you're not crazy for going Penn sticker.


NYstate wrote:Yes. You are crazy to take on that much debt and mortgage at least the next 10 years of your life on a chance you will find and keep a job. I don't understand why anyone is paying sticker to go to school in the atmosphere of declining applications.


Whatever your thoughts about the craziness of Penn sticker, this guy's options really are sticker at Penn or not going to law school. With his numbers, there typically aren't any other worthwhile options. While there's a perfectly legitimate argument to be made that skipping law school is the better choice, I just want to remind everyone that someone with a 3.19/170 can't just slide down the rankings a bit and take a huge scholarship.

On that note dixiecupdrinking's point also deserves repeating. Having some family help to fall back on makes a big difference. Everyone has to take all of these circumstances into account.


I honestly think this debate is useless without reference to Penn's LRAP (upon which I have no opinion).

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Nelson
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby Nelson » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:05 am

xjv177 wrote:
I honestly think this debate is useless without reference to Penn's LRAP (upon which I have no opinion).

Not sure why you keep talking about LRAP. LRAP doesn't really have that much bearing on anything since less than 10% of the class will be in qualifying employment at graduation.

xjv177
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby xjv177 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:08 am

Nelson wrote:
xjv177 wrote:
I honestly think this debate is useless without reference to Penn's LRAP (upon which I have no opinion).

Not sure why you keep talking about LRAP. LRAP doesn't really have that much bearing on anything since less than 10% of the class will be in qualifying employment at graduation.


Is that because they have 160k jobs where debt is not an issue (not a tendentious question, i promise).

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BruceWayne
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:11 am

Nelson wrote:
xjv177 wrote:
I honestly think this debate is useless without reference to Penn's LRAP (upon which I have no opinion).

Not sure why you keep talking about LRAP. LRAP doesn't really have that much bearing on anything since less than 10% of the class will be in qualifying employment at graduation.


People just need to stop with this. This is actually an area where I'm not as harsh about legal employment. I'm not saying PI jobs are awaiting all who apply; but unlike biglaw landing below the median doesn't automatically screw you. It's more complicated than that.

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bluepenguin
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby bluepenguin » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:14 am

xjv177 wrote:I honestly think this debate is useless without reference to Penn's LRAP (upon which I have no opinion).


I think consideration of LRAP is implicit in the question.

Relevant provisions, since you seem really curious:

To qualify as eligible for TolLRAP, an applicant’s job must be law-related public interest work. Law-related public interest work means the job must substantially utilize the legal training and skills that the graduate obtained in law school.

All federal loans (law school, undergraduate and other graduate) that are eligible for Income Based Repayment (IBR) are eligible for the calculation of TolLRAP II assistance.

Only the graduate’s income reported for the purpose of obtaining IBR for the assistance period is counted as income. TolLRAP II has an income cap of $100,000.

The graduate will receive TolLRAP assistance for the full payment of his/her federal loans in Income Based Repayment (IBR).


I think TolLRAP is amazing if you're a PI gunner and get it. Essentially you get paid to go to law school after you factor in TolLRAP Plus. Doesn't really look like much of a life jacket for those who strike out on biglaw though.

xjv177
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby xjv177 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:17 am

bluepenguin wrote:
xjv177 wrote:I honestly think this debate is useless without reference to Penn's LRAP (upon which I have no opinion).


I think consideration of LRAP is implicit in the question.

Relevant provisions, since you seem really curious:

To qualify as eligible for TolLRAP, an applicant’s job must be law-related public interest work. Law-related public interest work means the job must substantially utilize the legal training and skills that the graduate obtained in law school.

All federal loans (law school, undergraduate and other graduate) that are eligible for Income Based Repayment (IBR) are eligible for the calculation of TolLRAP II assistance.

Only the graduate’s income reported for the purpose of obtaining IBR for the assistance period is counted as income. TolLRAP II has an income cap of $100,000.

The graduate will receive TolLRAP assistance for the full payment of his/her federal loans in Income Based Repayment (IBR).


I think TolLRAP is amazing if you're a PI gunner and get it. Essentially you get paid to go to law school after you factor in TolLRAP Plus. Doesn't really look like much of a life jacket for those who strike out on biglaw though.


Ok looks like it steps on top of IBR and maybe helps some. Not as good as HYS (maybe that was obvious to others).

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Nelson
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby Nelson » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:20 am

BruceWayne wrote:
Nelson wrote:
xjv177 wrote:
I honestly think this debate is useless without reference to Penn's LRAP (upon which I have no opinion).

Not sure why you keep talking about LRAP. LRAP doesn't really have that much bearing on anything since less than 10% of the class will be in qualifying employment at graduation.


People just need to stop with this. This is actually an area where I'm not as harsh about legal employment. I'm not saying PI jobs are awaiting all who apply; but unlike biglaw landing below the median doesn't automatically screw you. It's more complicated than that.

It's not a significant portion of the class. Last year it was 20 kids in gov and PI combined out of 250. I didn't say anything about direct service PI being about grades. If OP was serious about direct service PI, then going to Penn at full price would make even less sense since he should be applying broadly to snag a public interest full ride somewhere or going to the state school where he wants to practice. The reason why splitters ED to T14s is to get to the school that maximizes their firm chances. Not so they can go be public defenders.

WhirledWorld
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby WhirledWorld » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:27 am

Over half the class at Penn had biglaw firms hand out jobs to them. In my class, of the folks who are not doing biglaw, a handful are at Big Three consulting firms, some others are at BB banks. Many are clerking (5/10 Delaware Chancery clerks are Penn grads). Many do public interest.

I also talked to Dean Fitts today, and Penn Law is rolling out a mini MBA from Wharton focusing on management and finance. So if biglaw fails, you still have a degree from a top 3 business school.

I'm not saying a Penn Law degree is a riskless investment, but it's probably worth sticker for anyone coming straight from undergrad.

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bluepenguin
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby bluepenguin » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:43 am

Nelson wrote:If OP was serious about direct service PI, then going to Penn at full price would make even less sense since he should be applying broadly to snag a public interest full ride somewhere or going to the state school where he wants to practice. The reason why splitters ED to T14s is to get to the school that maximizes their firm chances. Not so they can go be public defenders.


What? Assuming that as a splitter you could get full tuition somewhere (which won't happen), it'd still take $40k plus in COL loans to go to the local school. Meanwhile, if IBR/PSLF and TolLRAP hold up for 13 years, Penn Law would essentially pay *you* $20k to attend. I bet a lot of people would be willing to take that risk.

Maybe you have a roughly equal chance at local DA/PD out of a friendly neighborhood T1/2, but I bet your odds of snagging AUSA/DOJ/JAG/etc. all go up with a T14.

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JCougar
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby JCougar » Sat Feb 09, 2013 12:56 am

I do have to somewhat agree with the people noting that, as a splitter, this guy isn't going to have the same options. I am very surprised he got into Penn with those numbers. The more splitter-friendly of the bottom half of the T14 may admit him (Georgetown, NW, possibly Michigan), but they aren't known for handing out scholarships for those kinds of numbers. And a lot of the schools just outside the T14 aren't very splitter-friendly, either (Texas, UCLA, USC). Perhaps he could get something from Vandy, but that's a steep dropoff from Penn.

The thing is, you never know what NW, Michigan, and GeorgeTTTown will be handing out this year with applications collapsing. If Penn is admitting splitters at 170, that LSAT might be valued at a premium this year. Schools may break from tradition and start paying splitters. That's the drawback of doing ED.

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Nelson
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby Nelson » Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:08 am

bluepenguin wrote:Maybe you have a roughly equal chance at local DA/PD out of a friendly neighborhood T1/2, but I bet your odds of snagging AUSA/DOJ/JAG/etc. all go up with a T14.

People conflate these two options as if they have even remotely similar career paths. For direct client service (your DAs, PDs, and legal aids of the world) you're much better off with no debt from a school in the market you want to work in because it lets you do things like not make any money at all during your summers (which you won't) and then work for free for awhile after graduation if you need to try and get an office to hire you. Plus your school will have more alums who do that kind of work.

The other kind of PI (impact litigation, PI firm, fed government work) is much harder to get than your average V100 firm and probably requires a resume closer to what a DC litigation firm would be looking for from a Penn grad (i.e. law review grades + a clerkship). So you're probably better off at Penn, but the backup plan for most people interested in that kind of stuff isn't direct service, it's going to a firm to do litigation then on to alumni clerking or gov't or impact work. So LRAP is largely irrelevant since you're going to spend 2L and a couple years at a firm anyway, and you're just as vulnerable to striking out as the guy aiming to do corporate transactional work, if not more so.

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Nelson
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby Nelson » Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:08 am

JCougar wrote:I do have to somewhat agree with the people noting that, as a splitter, this guy isn't going to have the same options. I am very surprised he got into Penn with those numbers. The more splitter-friendly of the bottom half of the T14 may admit him (Georgetown, NW, possibly Michigan), but they aren't known for handing out scholarships for those kinds of numbers. And a lot of the schools just outside the T14 aren't very splitter-friendly, either (Texas, UCLA, USC). Perhaps he could get something from Vandy, but that's a steep dropoff from Penn.

The thing is, you never know what NW, Michigan, and GeorgeTTTown will be handing out this year with applications collapsing. If Penn is admitting splitters at 170, that LSAT might be valued at a premium this year. Schools may break from tradition and start paying splitters. That's the drawback of doing ED.

This is credited. For OP, there's probably a pretty decent case to be made that Penn at sticker was one of his better law school options. I doubt schools start paying splitters though.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:24 am

Nelson wrote:People conflate these two options as if they have even remotely similar career paths. For direct client service (your DAs, PDs, and legal aids of the world) you're much better off with no debt from a school in the market you want to work in because it lets you do things like not make any money at all during your summers (which you won't) and then work for free for awhile after graduation if you need to try and get an office to hire you. Plus your school will have more alums who do that kind of work.

The other kind of PI (impact litigation, PI firm, fed government work) is much harder to get than your average V100 firm and probably requires a resume closer to what a DC litigation firm would be looking for from a Penn grad (i.e. law review grades + a clerkship). So you're probably better off at Penn, but the backup plan for most people interested in that kind of stuff isn't direct service, it's going to a firm to do litigation then on to alumni clerking or gov't or impact work. So LRAP is largely irrelevant since you're going to spend 2L and a couple years at a firm anyway, and you're just as vulnerable to striking out as the guy aiming to do corporate transactional work, if not more so.


I think I misunderstood your earlier post because I can tell from this we're on the same page. And I would put JAG in the same category as what you describe as direct client service.

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Lacepiece23
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby Lacepiece23 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:26 am

I'm just going to add my two cents. It might sound ignorant as I've only read like 3 posts in this entire thread. However, everyone is basing Penn's placement on the 58% number they posted during the worst year of legal employment. I go to Cornell, and I know for almost a fact that the year after definitely outperformed this number. I think that Penn probably did too. I know its risky to guess and not go off the most recent stats available, but I think Penn's placement numbers this year will be way up from 58% to at least north of 65% maybe even as high as the mid 70%s for biglaw. Just something to consider.

senorhosh
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby senorhosh » Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:06 am

Ok I'm going to apologize in advanced for Penn trolling but this needs to be clarified: can someone explain to me why Penn is compared to MV rather than CCN?

Looking at this PURELY from a stat perspective, the average law student has a much better chance at doing "well" at Penn.
I know one answer is: self selection into PI or more difficult markets like DC. But to what extent is that true?
Comparing employment data between these two schools, Penn places CONSIDERABLY higher into biglaw for those who want the firm life. The only real edge UVA/Michigan has is PI/Govt jobs. However, given that a large number of students at UVA in school funded jobs are considered "PI", the placement into PI doesn't seem to be that huge relative to Penn. Penn's school funded job percentage is much lower, and most of these are legitimately part of the Toll program.


Obviously this is just pure numbers using LST. Sure SOME of this makes sense due to market selection but that still doesn't explain all of it.
The question is, if a UVA/Mich student were to have a bid list very close to a Penn student's list, would he/she be able to snag the same firms?

I know there are GPA cutoffs for firms but the only thing I read about GPA cutoffs is one thread where Bruce Wayne quotes another thread. It does give information on SOME firms but firms like DPW, Cleary, and Weil. These are firms that have cutoffs are the higher end of the class. How is using this information to extrapolate how the rest of NYC treats MVP students relative to each other useful? For all we know, these firms might treat MVP the same but firms with lower GPA cutoffs might have a lower cutoff for Penn.
The quoted thread:
http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 8&start=25

I obviously don't have the data but would love it if someone can show me substantial evidence that MVP is treated the same across all firms (in NYC at least). I'm not saying Bruce Wayne is wrong but rather I want to some data or evidence than taking his word for it.

Even if Penn were close to MV cutoff rates, there is SOMETHING that separates Penn from these two.

You can't just say "don't show me placement data. show me placement ABILITY". That's like saying because you can't see the reason or explanation for a phenomenon, it simply doesn't exist.
Please show me that market selection makes that much of a huge difference or there is another factor that can explains all of this.

Sidenote: Forget that i said Penn is peer to CCN. That will complicate things. Rather, I'm more interested in whether Penn is NOT peer with MV.

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stuckinthemiddle
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby stuckinthemiddle » Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:26 am

Coz then they wouldn't make up the acronym "MVP."

ercmilla
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby ercmilla » Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:31 am

Lacepiece23 wrote:I'm just going to add my two cents. It might sound ignorant as I've only read like 3 posts in this entire thread. However, everyone is basing Penn's placement on the 58% number they posted during the worst year of legal employment. I go to Cornell, and I know for almost a fact that the year after definitely outperformed this number. I think that Penn probably did too. I know its risky to guess and not go off the most recent stats available, but I think Penn's placement numbers this year will be way up from 58% to at least north of 65% maybe even as high as the mid 70%s for biglaw. Just something to consider.


This post made me think: does anyone have data of Biglaw (or something similar) broken out by year? I'd like to see how it's changed over the Great Recession.

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:36 am

rad lulz wrote:
Nickg415 wrote:
Dato wrote:
helix23 wrote:Side note...Sounds like going to law school might be wrong for you in general. "Don't care as long as it pays the debt" is the kind of mentality that turns half of America's lawyers into 50 year old grey-haired divorcee alcoholics. Do it because you want to, not because you don't care.


Sorry I can see how this can come off wrong. What I meant to emphasize is that I don't care what market I work in. Growing up I have around a lot and have found that I am not tied to any one city to the point that it would be a deal breakers. So if the only job that will give me the money to pay off my debt is in Texas I am fine with taking that. As I said before I do want to work in Law so its not just a "Law because I'll be like harvey spektor" situation

Without prior ties, Penn isn't that portable. No school is.


I got offers from firms Dallas, Houston, Chicago, Boston, LA and London. I didn't apply to any New York firms but I'm sure I could have gotten an offer from there as well. I only have ties to Chicago and I guess Boston. I think people over value ties if you go to a top school. The main thing is having good grades and being able to weave a story about why you want to be in a particular area. Also being a good interviewer and having work experience doesn't hurt but I think the key is convincing your interviewer you really want to be in a certain area.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:05 am

unc0mm0n1 wrote:I got offers from firms Dallas, Houston, Chicago, Boston, LA and London. I didn't apply to any New York firms but I'm sure I could have gotten an offer from there as well. I only have ties to Chicago and I guess Boston. I think people over value ties if you go to a top school. The main thing is having good grades and being able to weave a story about why you want to be in a particular area. Also being a good interviewer and having work experience doesn't hurt but I think the key is convincing your interviewer you really want to be in a certain area.


Lol obviously you can go to places where you don't have ties if you have high grades. High grades change everything in the legal world---and I mentioned that in my earlier post discussing the issue. Yes, if you pull a 3.7 at a top 14 your degree then becomes national.

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Nelson
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby Nelson » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:12 am

unc0mm0n1 wrote:I got offers from firms Dallas, Houston, Chicago, Boston, LA and London. I didn't apply to any New York firms but I'm sure I could have gotten an offer from there as well. I only have ties to Chicago and I guess Boston. I think people over value ties if you go to a top school. The main thing is having good grades and being able to weave a story about why you want to be in a particular area. Also being a good interviewer and having work experience doesn't hurt but I think the key is convincing your interviewer you really want to be in a certain area.

Nice humblebrag but your top grades from Harvard don't have much relevance in a thread about 0Ls talking about Penn.

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Nelson
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby Nelson » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:22 am

senorhosh wrote:The question is, if a UVA/Mich student were to have a bid list very close to a Penn student's list, would he/she be able to snag the same firms?
Options for top students are pretty similar. All of the same big firms go to all three schools (I think Wachtell is one of the few NY firms that comes to Penn and not the other two but that's not very important). I think the difference in NLJ numbers has less to do with lower cutoffs for top firms and more to do with Penn having a smaller class and being in a decently sized legal market of its own. A heavy NYC focus helps too since the less grade picky firms are bigger than similar firms in other markets.

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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:45 am

Lacepiece23 wrote:I'm just going to add my two cents. It might sound ignorant as I've only read like 3 posts in this entire thread. However, everyone is basing Penn's placement on the 58% number they posted during the worst year of legal employment. I go to Cornell, and I know for almost a fact that the year after definitely outperformed this number. I think that Penn probably did too. I know its risky to guess and not go off the most recent stats available, but I think Penn's placement numbers this year will be way up from 58% to at least north of 65% maybe even as high as the mid 70%s for biglaw. Just something to consider.


I will be thrilled if this is confirmed with data, since I'm a 1L and want the legal economy to improve. I'm sceptical because if this data exists, why wouldn't the schools post it in some form?

FWIW I turned down Penn at sticker and some lower t14 with some money. I'm in law school with no debt, many interviews with top firms and prestigious pi (DOJ, federal judges) and I have zero regrets. I think Penn at sticker is just too much of a risk. I know people who are t14 with bad grades, and vault firms won't touch them and midsized/local firms think the people are overqualified or not the right fit. It's a shitty situation.

edit: 9 months after graduation is the middle of next week for Penn, and presumably around then for other schools, so if the numbers are better they should come out soon.

NYstate
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Re: Am I crazy for attending UPenn at sticker (Poll)?

Postby NYstate » Sat Feb 09, 2013 11:41 am

I think OP will be well served to speak to some grads and see how they are dealing with loan repayments, and not just people in biglaw. Listening to people who are still in school won't give you the complete picture of what it is like to handle this amount of debt. I am not sure how many people in this thread (or forum) have debt, or if they do, how many people in this forum even know what their current balance is?

Maybe most of grads with 6 figures of debt will say go for it. Maybe they will feel that the biglaw gamble from Penn is worth taking. But it would be good to get some experienced opinions.

Obviously if your family is paying for school and you aren't taking out loans, then it is a different question. I am only looking at having to repay huge amount of debt after you graduate.

(~sunynp)




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