Debt-Averse Californian: Help Me

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rinkrat19
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Re: Debt-Averse Californian: Help Me

Postby rinkrat19 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:37 pm

twinkletoes16 wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:I don't think you can make a good decision here until you have scholarship offers from all the school.



You're right. Just trying to get a feel for things. Maybe I should stay put and not move until I have everything decided upon- 2 moves aren't going to help me save money.

There's no maybe about it.

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twinkletoes16
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Re: Debt-Averse Californian: Help Me

Postby twinkletoes16 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:37 pm

BigZuck wrote:Fwiw the OP is a "Californian" but not a resident as far as I know. But that's only like a 4 or 5K difference I think.



Edited: assume I'm OOS for Berkeley's 1st year of tuition. Raised in bay and graduated high school there, went to college OOS, lived in SoCal for a while, now am trapped on the East Coast. Family and friends are all out in CA; TL;DR I regret taking this shit job out here.
Last edited by twinkletoes16 on Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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twinkletoes16
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Re: Debt-Averse Californian: Help Me

Postby twinkletoes16 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:39 pm

rinkrat19 wrote:
twinkletoes16 wrote:
rinkrat19 wrote:I don't think you can make a good decision here until you have scholarship offers from all the school.



You're right. Just trying to get a feel for things. Maybe I should stay put and not move until I have everything decided upon- 2 moves aren't going to help me save money.

There's no maybe about it.



Yeah, I know. Just hate my job and my life currently :mrgreen: :roll: ill stay until June and then make a move to wherever I commit.


Thanks for all the advice, guys! Keep it coming! I know I am definitely not the only person focusing on CA biglaw and trying to make some tough decisions this cycle.

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BlaqBella
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Re: Debt-Averse Californian: Help Me

Postby BlaqBella » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:46 pm

twinkletoes16 wrote:Thanks for all the advice, guys! Keep it coming! I know I am definitely not the only person focusing on CA biglaw and trying to make some tough decisions this cycle.


Speaking to CA biglaw attorneys, its SLS and Berkeley at the top. Everyone else below. That said, Santa Clara seems to place decently. UCLA and USC are about even.

BigZuck
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Re: Debt-Averse Californian: Help Me

Postby BigZuck » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:49 pm

Best advice of this thread: don't got to Santa Clara. Especially with those numbers.

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BlaqBella
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Re: Debt-Averse Californian: Help Me

Postby BlaqBella » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:53 pm

BigZuck wrote:Best advice of this thread: don't got to Santa Clara. Especially with those numbers.


No one suggested that OP should. :roll: :roll:

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Rahviveh
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Re: Debt-Averse Californian: Help Me

Postby Rahviveh » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:59 pm

OP use this:

http://www.law.georgetown.edu/admission ... eid=112745

Even with 120k your debt is still going to be soul crushing without biglaw. Using this calculator, I was shocked at how much debt one owes even if you get huge schollies.

Having said that I'd still choose USC in your situation, as things stand now, but you will get better options

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Drake014
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Re: Debt-Averse Californian: Help Me

Postby Drake014 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:01 pm

twinkletoes16 wrote:
JCougar wrote:
Also, consider that even Berkeley gives you no better than a 50-50 shot at Biglaw. You could go there and finish in the bottom third and be forced to bartend away $200K of debt.



Source?


I'm too lazy to find the source but I'm a boalt grad and I agree with that 50-50 figure. About 1/3 of Boalties go the BigLaw route but about 1/3 of them don't even try because they want PI.

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twinkletoes16
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Re: Debt-Averse Californian: Help Me

Postby twinkletoes16 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:02 pm

BlaqBella wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Best advice of this thread: don't got to Santa Clara. Especially with those numbers.


No one suggested that OP should. :roll: :roll:



Why not Pepperdine? :mrgreen:

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BlaqBella
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Re: Debt-Averse Californian: Help Me

Postby BlaqBella » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:05 pm

twinkletoes16 wrote:
BlaqBella wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Best advice of this thread: don't got to Santa Clara. Especially with those numbers.


No one suggested that OP should. :roll: :roll:



Why not Pepperdine? :mrgreen:


I thought Golden Gate more befitting, :mrgreen:.

But seriously, I just wanted to relay what I was told by some in the industry on how certain Cali schools are perceived/ranked by Cali firms.

Would a SLS acceptance change your aversion to debt?

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twinkletoes16
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Re: Debt-Averse Californian: Help Me

Postby twinkletoes16 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:07 pm

BlaqBella wrote:
twinkletoes16 wrote:
BlaqBella wrote:
BigZuck wrote:Best advice of this thread: don't got to Santa Clara. Especially with those numbers.


No one suggested that OP should. :roll: :roll:



Why not Pepperdine? :mrgreen:


I thought Golden Gate more befitting, :mrgreen:.

But seriously, I just wanted to relay what I was told by some in the industry on how certain Cali schools are perceived/ranked by Cali firms.

Would a SLS acceptance change your aversion to debt?



I would pay in full for SLS or H, it's just that I'm not getting into either of those. My GPA is what it is; I'm two years out of school.

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twenty
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Re: Debt-Averse Californian: Help Me

Postby twenty » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:10 pm

Unless you get some 75k~ from NYU (which you can hopefully match at Berkeley) or can get at least 100k from NU, I think USC is probably the best choice here.

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Crowing
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Re: Debt-Averse Californian: Help Me

Postby Crowing » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:13 pm

I suppose if you're really debt-averse USC seems to make the most sense. But if I was from CA and was interested in CA biglaw I'd have a hard time turning down Boalt.

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twinkletoes16
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Re: Debt-Averse Californian: Help Me

Postby twinkletoes16 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:16 pm

Crowing wrote:I suppose if you're really debt-averse USC seems to make the most sense. But if I was from CA and was interested in CA biglaw I'd have a hard time turning down Boalt.



This is my problem. At what point do the $ scales tip in in USC's direction?

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twenty
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Re: Debt-Averse Californian: Help Me

Postby twenty » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:20 pm

At the point where you realize you literally must do 5 years in biglaw in order to pay off law school debt, while at the same time attrition for 4th years is worse than the Marine Corps OCS.

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Redamon1
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Re: Debt-Averse Californian: Help Me

Postby Redamon1 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:21 pm

I'm assuming you've written a scholarship interest letter to Berkeley? My guess is that if you show sincere interest in the school (but inability to attend for financial reasons), you have a decent shot at matching grant. Also, don't forget need-based aid. See what the final package looks like.

Employment stats are here: --LinkRemoved--

One other thing to consider is B's strong LRAP. You mention that PI is a goal of yours down the line. Although there are reasons to go into private practice before PI, if loan repayment in the only/primary reason you're thinking of doing it, you could skip that step altogether and join a PI/Govt organization after school or after a clerkship. PI jobs are competitive as well, but Berkeley has a great record and a disproportionate number of grads choose to go down that route.

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bernaldiaz
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Re: Debt-Averse Californian: Help Me

Postby bernaldiaz » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:23 pm

AssumptionRequired wrote:If you can get the Rothman take it and dont look back. Basically guarantees biglaw (gives you a 1L spot, and I hear everyone gets an offer back). If not and you definitely want clerkship/biglaw I would take whatever money berk gives you (I am assuming they will match Michigan). If no money, go to Michigan or UVA/Penn if you get similar money.


Wow, did not know this about the Rothman. Looking at it now. That's a game changer.

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Crowing
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Re: Debt-Averse Californian: Help Me

Postby Crowing » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:34 pm

twinkletoes16 wrote:
Crowing wrote:I suppose if you're really debt-averse USC seems to make the most sense. But if I was from CA and was interested in CA biglaw I'd have a hard time turning down Boalt.



This is my problem. At what point do the $ scales tip in in USC's direction?


The most recent placement data for USC is pretty impressive, but I don't take much stock in single year data. Does anybody have a link to some more comprehensive data? NLJ250 2010/2011 for USC is 28.72%/32.85% vs. 45.61%/45.9% for Boalt. Also you mentioned you wanted to clerk; I feel like Boalt would make a big difference over USC when it comes to federal clerkships (double the placement on LST).

There has to be a discussion somewhere about USC's biglaw placement; I've never researched any CA schools because I have 0 personal interest in CA, but I imagine somebody has to have been interested in their fairly strong biglaw placement last year.

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bernaldiaz
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Re: Debt-Averse Californian: Help Me

Postby bernaldiaz » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:44 pm

Crowing wrote:
twinkletoes16 wrote:
Crowing wrote:I suppose if you're really debt-averse USC seems to make the most sense. But if I was from CA and was interested in CA biglaw I'd have a hard time turning down Boalt.



This is my problem. At what point do the $ scales tip in in USC's direction?


The most recent placement data for USC is pretty impressive, but I don't take much stock in single year data. Does anybody have a link to some more comprehensive data? NLJ250 2010/2011 for USC is 28.72%/32.85% vs. 45.61%/45.9% for Boalt. Also you mentioned you wanted to clerk; I feel like Boalt would make a big difference over USC when it comes to federal clerkships (double the placement on LST).

There has to be a discussion somewhere about USC's biglaw placement; I've never researched any CA schools because I have 0 personal interest in CA, but I imagine somebody has to have been interested in their fairly strong biglaw placement last year.


Read about the Rothman: "The scholarship covers full tuition for three years and includes a summer fellowship - a guaranteed placement at Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom during the summer after the scholar's first year of law school." To me, this makes it one of the best deals around. You are guaranteed a footing into biglaw and very little to no debt (especially with that big law money to cover COL). Whereas I think we don't know how the Ruby or Hamiltons affect biglaw placement, it sounds like USC makes sure that Rothmans are differentiated from the rest of the class. If I wanted CA, I think I would be shooting for this above all else unless I was going to get serious aid from S.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Debt-Averse Californian: Help Me

Postby Rahviveh » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:45 pm

bernaldiaz wrote:
Crowing wrote:
twinkletoes16 wrote:
Crowing wrote:I suppose if you're really debt-averse USC seems to make the most sense. But if I was from CA and was interested in CA biglaw I'd have a hard time turning down Boalt.



This is my problem. At what point do the $ scales tip in in USC's direction?


The most recent placement data for USC is pretty impressive, but I don't take much stock in single year data. Does anybody have a link to some more comprehensive data? NLJ250 2010/2011 for USC is 28.72%/32.85% vs. 45.61%/45.9% for Boalt. Also you mentioned you wanted to clerk; I feel like Boalt would make a big difference over USC when it comes to federal clerkships (double the placement on LST).

There has to be a discussion somewhere about USC's biglaw placement; I've never researched any CA schools because I have 0 personal interest in CA, but I imagine somebody has to have been interested in their fairly strong biglaw placement last year.


Read about the Rothman: "The scholarship covers full tuition for three years and includes a summer fellowship - a guaranteed placement at Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom during the summer after the scholar's first year of law school." To me, this makes it one of the best deals around. You are guaranteed a footing into biglaw and very little to no debt (especially with that big law money to cover COL). Whereas I think we don't know how the Ruby or Hamiltons affect biglaw placement, it sounds like USC makes sure that Rothmans are differentiated from the rest of the class. If I wanted CA, I think I would be shooting for this above all else unless I was going to get serious aid from S.


Isn't there only one Rothman?

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bernaldiaz
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Re: Debt-Averse Californian: Help Me

Postby bernaldiaz » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:47 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
bernaldiaz wrote:
Read about the Rothman: "The scholarship covers full tuition for three years and includes a summer fellowship - a guaranteed placement at Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom during the summer after the scholar's first year of law school." To me, this makes it one of the best deals around. You are guaranteed a footing into biglaw and very little to no debt (especially with that big law money to cover COL). Whereas I think we don't know how the Ruby or Hamiltons affect biglaw placement, it sounds like USC makes sure that Rothmans are differentiated from the rest of the class. If I wanted CA, I think I would be shooting for this above all else unless I was going to get serious aid from S.


Isn't there only one Rothman?


Oh I didn't know that. That changes things.

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twinkletoes16
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Re: Debt-Averse Californian: Help Me

Postby twinkletoes16 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:47 pm

bernaldiaz wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:
bernaldiaz wrote:
Read about the Rothman: "The scholarship covers full tuition for three years and includes a summer fellowship - a guaranteed placement at Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom during the summer after the scholar's first year of law school." To me, this makes it one of the best deals around. You are guaranteed a footing into biglaw and very little to no debt (especially with that big law money to cover COL). Whereas I think we don't know how the Ruby or Hamiltons affect biglaw placement, it sounds like USC makes sure that Rothmans are differentiated from the rest of the class. If I wanted CA, I think I would be shooting for this above all else unless I was going to get serious aid from S.


Isn't there only one Rothman?


Oh I didn't know that. That changes things.



I wish there was more than 1. Very much a long shot

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JCougar
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Re: Debt-Averse Californian: Help Me

Postby JCougar » Thu Feb 07, 2013 4:01 pm

Crowing wrote: Also you mentioned you wanted to clerk; I feel like Boalt would make a big difference over USC when it comes to federal clerkships (double the placement on LST).


Choosing between two schools because you are clerkship gunning is like choosing between a T2 and a TTT because you want biglaw. Such a small percentage get them that it's really not a reason to pay more.

I know people generally reject this on TLS, but the curve is going to be flatter and flatter the better the school you go to--and thus your grades will be even more random at higher schools. Both Cooley and Harvard have vastly different student bodies regarding ability, but the students are given law exams of the same difficulty. The Harvard peeps (if they didn't have their modified pass/fail grading) will be getting things only slightly less than perfect and yet fall in the middle of the class grade-wise. When professors are forced to nit-pick in order to force a curve, things get incredibly random and petty.

In essence, there's no feasible way to plan on getting a clerkship, because even at T10 schools, you have to be in the top 10% or better, and you cannot reliably gun for those grades.

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megagnarley
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Re: Debt-Averse Californian: Help Me

Postby megagnarley » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:02 pm

twinkletoes16 wrote:I am mostly set on law school at this point, but get panicky thinking about being unemployed out of law school and having soul-crushing debt. Some of the articles floating around (http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/2013/02/a-reader-suggested-i-take-look-at.html and http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887323926104578276301888284108.html, for those who were wondering) have made me very nervous (and rightly so). Thus far have been accepted at the following schools (scholarships, if any, listed below):

USC- 105k (may be bumped up to 120k, and still waiting to hear about Rothman)
UCLA
Berkeley
Michigan- 75k
Georgetown
NYU
Northwestern

Still waiting to hear back from HSCC (these will all be dings or never-ending WLs if I'm lucky), along with Cornell, UVA, and Penn.

Career-path wise, my ideal would be clerking, biglaw, then into PI or possibly being a judge if there's a miracle. I want to practice in California, but am not particular about Norcal vs. Socal...having lived in both, both have pros and cons. As said above, debt makes me nervous, but I think I need to strike a balance between $ vs. best possible career (or repaying the debt, anyway) outcomes. Also have taken a look at LST and Berkeley looks fairly solid, but want to make sure I'm not missing anything, and that $-wise I would be taking the right choice if I'm staring down the gun with Berk @ sticker. :shock:

Thoughts, TLSers? I know my cycle is still young, I just have a lot of planning and moving to do early this year prior to enrolling anywhere anyway.



Job > CA --- NYU
CA > Job --- Berkeley

I am in the exact same position with worse numbers and less acceptances (so far), also imagining a similar career path. I would take those two in a heartbeat to maximize Biglaw chances.

If you are a CA native don't be afraid to leave the state. If not stay here.

USC/UCLA are always tempting but the numbers are scary.

zman
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Re: Debt-Averse Californian: Help Me

Postby zman » Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:45 pm

new big law employment figures will come in about 3-4 weeks. From a magazine I use to work for I'm hearing berkeley had a monster year.




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