Getting serious about W&L

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JayJones78
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Re: Getting serious about W&L

Postby JayJones78 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:00 am

Crowing wrote:
JayJones78 wrote:Also - give me some credit for not making life decisions on answers I get online. As much as I greatly appreciate the help I get here I'm not going pay my first deposit to W&L because someone or some people here told me that it's a good decision. I'm looking at things holistically (as much as I can) and trying to make a decision that is good for me and for the situation I am in at the point in my life.


I'm not at all in the camp that seems to think TLS has a civic duty to convince everybody to retake and avoid most schools; don't get me wrong, I think the reasoning is sound, but I'm not going to badger people I don't know about those things.

But anyway I just wanted to comment on the quoted bit. I understand that random people online don't know about personal situations and specific circumstances. But really I think overall the concept of an online forum like this and the people it draws are a strength. Sure, you get trolls and people who like to spout opinions without backing them up with evidence. But if you take the community as a whole and try to take in as many opinions as possible, you still get a lot of valuable information that is probably overall a lot more useful than what you could learn simply by talking to family members, friends, and acquaintances.

There are plenty of people like me who have no real experience yet and can only look at numbers, but you do get views from people who have been on the ground and seen the status quo firsthand. And it's not all bitter people who went to TTTs and got no jobs or got bad grades at a T14 and struck out at OCI. There are people here who have done really well, even people who finished at the top of their TTT classes and landed good jobs but nevertheless are aware of how fortunate they were and how easily they could have ended up like many of their struggling classmates.

I'm not saying this to point at anything specific that you said, and I fully agree with trying to look at options from various angles and to get many different perspectives - I just wanted to make that point I guess.


I'm in agreement with you and I got some incredible advice here from so many people mi was just going off on the whole retake notion that exists here. What I meant n the part you quoted was that I'm not going to make a swift decision based on someone's opinion here. But rather read, research and come out with a decision that works for me. It may be W&L or a different school. And maybe at the end of my cycle when I'll look at all my options I'd say: hey, what I should actually do is sit at home and study for the dec LSAT.

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bluepenguin
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Re: Getting serious about W&L

Postby bluepenguin » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:47 am

talesofyore wrote:I think for these particular threads people, when answering, should assume the OP is already familiar with the TLS credited advice, put it aside, and answer in other ways.


I think for these particular threads, OP's should have to demonstrate that they know and understand the TLS conventional wisdom, and provide some rationale as to why they want to go against it.

Think about it this way. Someone comes and asks, "Should I stab myself in the stomach, or shoot myself in the stomach?" The answer is neither. Until the person gives you a plausible reason for making the choice (i.e. getting five million dollars for it on a bet), there's not much point in discussing the merits of stabbing over shooting. And even with a good reason, TCR is still probably 'neither.'

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JayJones78
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Re: Getting serious about W&L

Postby JayJones78 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 2:07 am

bluepenguin wrote:
talesofyore wrote:I think for these particular threads people, when answering, should assume the OP is already familiar with the TLS credited advice, put it aside, and answer in other ways.


I think for these particular threads, OP's should have to demonstrate that they know and understand the TLS conventional wisdom, and provide some rationale as to why they want to go against it.

Think about it this way. Someone comes and asks, "Should I stab myself in the stomach, or shoot myself in the stomach?" The answer is neither. Until the person gives you a plausible reason for making the choice (i.e. getting five million dollars for it on a bet), there's not much point in discussing the merits of stabbing over shooting. And even with a good reason, TCR is still probably 'neither.'


But that's exactly what I said at the bottom of my opening post. And still it didnt take long before the thread went the retake route.

BigZuck
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Re: Getting serious about W&L

Postby BigZuck » Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:49 am

People probably started talking retake because around here when people say they can't retake it's either because "daddy won't let me!" or "I'm 24, I'm already super old!" or "I hate my 40k a year job, it's time to be a lawyer!" All of which are lame reasons so people usually ignore that.

As for your specific reasons I wouldn't be surprised if people ignored them too, just because looking at things objectively and dispassionately there is no real difference between starting law school at 32 or 33. Especially if starting at 33 means you will be in a significantly better place financially and/ or career wise.

Personally I think you should retake until you can get into a good school at a cost that makes sense but I know your background so I didn't bother saying retake. If W&L makes sense for all the reasons that matter (and for the most part that is just cost and career prospects in an area you have ties to) then nothing wrong with going there.

dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Getting serious about W&L

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:58 am

I mean, here's the thing: This thread is called "Getting serious about W&L." You're here asking for advice about whether to go. A lot of the answers you've received are telling you not to go. So those are your answers. Why the push back? You can obviously go do whatever you want with your life, but if you're here to get unbiased opinions about what you should do, then don't reject them out of hand because they aren't providing the answer you hoped for.

Hutz_and_Goodman
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Re: Getting serious about W&L

Postby Hutz_and_Goodman » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:12 am

I want to echo people above and say that you need to retake, and going would almost definitely be a bad idea given the debt vs. the likely outcome. Also, considering that W&L has 20% biglaw/clerkship, you should realize that you don't have a 1/5 chance of this outcome because you are going to be competing against students with much better numbers, and they have a better likelihood of reaching the top of the class (there is some correlation between both GPA and LSAT and 1L grades). I think if you retake and can get high 150s/low 160s you will be looking at an entirely different ballgame (T14 acceptances or full ride at W&L or a peer school). If I was your best friend or brother, that's the advice I would give you: sit out a year and retake.

I'm an older student myself (30-35), and believe me that one year will not make a difference, and if you can improve your LSAT you will either save yourself $150k or get an admission to the T14.

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bluepenguin
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Re: Getting serious about W&L

Postby bluepenguin » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:35 am

JayJones78 wrote:But that's exactly what I said at the bottom of my opening post. And still it didnt take long before the thread went the retake route.


You can't just say "can't retake." Pretty much no one can't retake (yourself included, obviously), so, again, it's "won't retake," and posters still need a good reason why if they want to stem the tide of retake responses.

For you personally, you should retake. There's no two ways around that. Do Americorps, get some graduate credits, hike along the PCH toting the LGB, whatever. Anything to avoid a fate at W&L that will have take on substantial debt for a minute chance of a job that will service it, and a significant chance of not even being to find a (legal or nonlegal) job that would allow IBR to bail you out. But I understand where you're coming from. If I were in your place I might consider rolling the dice just to get going. If you really want to take that gamble, okay, but go in with your eyes wide open.

As a general rule, though, the burden of proof is on the OP when asking for advice on bad LS prospects.

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BmoreOrLess
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Re: Getting serious about W&L

Postby BmoreOrLess » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:53 am

Hutz_and_Goodman wrote:if you can improve your LSAT you will either save yourself $150k or get an admission to the T14.


This is the way you have to look at it. I know it seems like you're just throwing away another year, but if you look at it as a job you could be making $100k+ next year by "working" to take the LSAT again and getting $$$ from W&L. Think about it as your first year in your legal career.

Your odds of crushing the LSAT and snagging $100k+ in scholarships are simply much higher than crushing 1L and snagging a $100k+ legal job.

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JayJones78
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Re: Getting serious about W&L

Postby JayJones78 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 11:54 am

Thanks for everyone who replied, I appriciate it and I do take everything to heart. At this point, as Iv said before, I am not going to retake. I layed out everything why and it's okay if people think otherwise. The bottom line is that I am not going to wait until next dec to take an exam I am really not sure i can tackle. It may change it the next few months, although I pretty sure it won't. I will make final decisions when the cycle is over and I can look at all my options.

But, again this is not the subject of the thread. However I did get some thoughts about what I actually asked for and thank you for that as well.

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BlaqBella
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Re: Getting serious about W&L

Postby BlaqBella » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:23 pm

I'm not sure how you can start "getting serious about W&L" when you still have yet to hear back from a handful of other school, some more noteably better rank/placement-wise than W&L.

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BlaqBella
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Re: Getting serious about W&L

Postby BlaqBella » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:29 pm

But to answer your question, check out below:

http://law.wlu.edu/alumni/page.asp?pageid=797

As an AA male, it will be in your best interest to reach out to other black male graduates on this list to get a feel of their experience and how they best navigated OCI within the Lexington, VA area. As the black community is relatively small here, getting perspective from other URMs will help you make a more informed decision.

Also inquire on if they have alumni networking events within regions. Perhaps their is a West Coast Alumni group that hosts events where you can attend..

Good luck with whatever you decide.

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francesfarmer
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Re: Getting serious about W&L

Postby francesfarmer » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:33 pm

I just wanted to say I've been following your cycle and I know you'll make the best choice for yourself. And I second the above post--your cycle hasn't shaken out yet!

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ndirish2010
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Re: Getting serious about W&L

Postby ndirish2010 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:38 pm

PRgradBYU wrote:
talesofyore wrote:I think for these particular threads people, when answering, should assume the OP is already familiar with the TLS credited advice, put it aside, and answer in other ways.


Amen to that, man.


The TLS credited advice is credited for a reason.

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JayJones78
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Re: Getting serious about W&L

Postby JayJones78 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:46 pm

francesfarmer wrote:I just wanted to say I've been following your cycle and I know you'll make the best choice for yourself. And I second the above post--your cycle hasn't shaken out yet!


Thanks to you and to @BlaqBella !!

And I totally agree. Nothing is set in stone yet or anything of a sort, and I'm not ready to commit to any school at this point. I'm just trying to see if I can get info or first hand (aka people who are or went to W&L in this case) to add to everything I'm gathering.

But yes, you guys are right. There's a long way to go before a final decision is made....

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francesfarmer
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Re: Getting serious about W&L

Postby francesfarmer » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:49 pm

JayJones78 wrote:
francesfarmer wrote:I just wanted to say I've been following your cycle and I know you'll make the best choice for yourself. And I second the above post--your cycle hasn't shaken out yet!


Thanks to you and to @BlaqBella !!

And I totally agree. Nothing is set in stone yet or anything of a sort, and I'm not ready to commit to any school at this point. I'm just trying to see if I can get info or first hand (aka people who are or went to W&L in this case) to add to everything I'm gathering.

But yes, you guys are right. There's a long way to go before a final decision is made....

A lot of people are feeling very antsy right now, I think. I made one of these threads and I haven't gotten all of my acceptances yet. February sucks!!!

BigZuck
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Re: Getting serious about W&L

Postby BigZuck » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:52 pm

If you have questions about the school then I would think the ask a law student subforum might have a thread with students taking questions or sometimes the applicant threads have current students weighing in.

"Choosing a law school" is more for "should I go here" and the answer will usually be "No, retake" for a lot of schools (and with good reason, IMO). But that doesn't seem to be what you're looking for.

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BlaqBella
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Re: Getting serious about W&L

Postby BlaqBella » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:55 pm

I have a strange feeling this entire discussion will become moot after you gain admittance to a higher ranked school. I think you'll be getting at least one of the following:

Vanderbilt
WUSTL
Cardozo
Boston College
Tulane
William & Mary

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JayJones78
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Re: Getting serious about W&L

Postby JayJones78 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:06 pm

BlaqBella wrote:I have a strange feeling this entire discussion will become moot after you gain admittance to a higher ranked school. I think you'll be getting at least one of the following:

Vanderbilt
WUSTL
Cardozo
Boston College
Tulane
William & Mary


From your keyboard to adcomms' eyes.
I do think I'll probably get accepted at Tulane, Cardozo and W&M, but I am not sure if picking them (putting $ aside just for the sake of this discussion) over W&L will be the right decision.

As for Vandy, Wash U & BC: perhaps, it'll be a nice surprise.

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JayJones78
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Re: Getting serious about W&L

Postby JayJones78 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:06 pm

BigZuck wrote:If you have questions about the school then I would think the ask a law student subforum might have a thread with students taking questions or sometimes the applicant threads have current students weighing in.

"Choosing a law school" is more for "should I go here" and the answer will usually be "No, retake" for a lot of schools (and with good reason, IMO). But that doesn't seem to be what you're looking for.


You are right. I should have done that. I completely forgot about that one. Thanks!!

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ndirish2010
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Re: Getting serious about W&L

Postby ndirish2010 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:08 pm

BlaqBella wrote:I have a strange feeling this entire discussion will become moot after you gain admittance to a higher ranked school. I think you'll be getting at least one of the following:

Vanderbilt
WUSTL
Cardozo
Boston College
Tulane
William & Mary


Don't go to Cardozo.

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BlaqBella
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Re: Getting serious about W&L

Postby BlaqBella » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:10 pm

JayJones78 wrote:
BlaqBella wrote:I have a strange feeling this entire discussion will become moot after you gain admittance to a higher ranked school. I think you'll be getting at least one of the following:

Vanderbilt
WUSTL
Cardozo
Boston College
Tulane
William & Mary


From your keyboard to adcomms' eyes.
I do think I'll probably get accepted at Tulane, Cardozo and W&M, but I am not sure if picking them (putting $ aside just for the sake of this discussion) over W&L will be the right decision.

As for Vandy, Wash U & BC: perhaps, it'll be a nice surprise.


All I'll say is the following:

1. If you land either Vandy or WUSTL, GO!

2. Don't count out W&M. It has the better reputation in VA v.s. W&L.

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BlaqBella
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Re: Getting serious about W&L

Postby BlaqBella » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:13 pm

FYI:

More discussion on W&L and comparison between them and W&M:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=95038

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BlaqBella
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Re: Getting serious about W&L

Postby BlaqBella » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:14 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:
BlaqBella wrote:I have a strange feeling this entire discussion will become moot after you gain admittance to a higher ranked school. I think you'll be getting at least one of the following:

Vanderbilt
WUSTL
Cardozo
Boston College
Tulane
William & Mary


Don't go to Cardozo.


Agreed...I don't even think OP wants NYC, lol, but if he gets in and lands $$, perhaps he can use it to negotiate more $$ elsehwere.

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JayJones78
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Re: Getting serious about W&L

Postby JayJones78 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 1:18 pm

BlaqBella wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:
BlaqBella wrote:I have a strange feeling this entire discussion will become moot after you gain admittance to a higher ranked school. I think you'll be getting at least one of the following:

Vanderbilt
WUSTL
Cardozo
Boston College
Tulane
William & Mary


Don't go to Cardozo.


Agreed...I don't even think OP wants NYC, lol, but if he gets in and lands $$, perhaps he can use it to negotiate more $$ elsehwere.


+1

Kel Varnsen
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Re: Getting serious about W&L

Postby Kel Varnsen » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:48 pm

The top 14 or bust crowd is pretty stupid. You can definitely get a really good job going to W&L I know people first hand who have. Some of that crowd act like 1) big law is the only law, and 2) when a percentage that goes into a certain field is under 50 it means that the percentage is actually 0.

I've avoided these boards because I know how wrong the general consensus is, and the echo chamber just makes it even worse. Law applications are at a 30-year low. This actually isn't a bad time to be going at all. And in the end if it's something you really want to do it's your life. Making career choices based only through the lens of what is most likely to bring me the most money is setting yourself up for a life of sadness.




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