T14 you'd attend with >$200 k expected debt?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

T14 you'd attend at sticker (can select more than 1)

HYS
226
32%
Columbia
129
18%
Chicago
98
14%
NYU
89
13%
Penn Berkeley UVA
68
10%
Michigan
19
3%
Duke
16
2%
Northwestern
24
3%
Georgetown
13
2%
Cornell
24
3%
 
Total votes: 706

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suralin
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Re: Lowest ranked T14 you'd attend with $200 k expected debt?

Postby suralin » Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:05 pm

drive4showLSAT4dough wrote:
Suralin wrote:
drive4showLSAT4dough wrote:
law2015 wrote:
LOL, good analysis! Same line of reasoning suggests that Northwestern is better than Yale.


No it doesn't. Median student at NU has a better chance at a 160K job than median student at NYU.

Evidence:
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... =employers
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school= ... =employers

That's all that my line of reasoning suggests. Has nothing to do with "better" (whatever you assume that term to mean), prestige, USNews ranking, size of Law library, percentage of aspie students, or anything else.


Your line of reasoning demonstrates that a median student at NU more often has a 160k job than a median student at NYU, not that a median student at NU has a better chance at getting a 160k job than a student at NYU.

Simply put, placement statistics != placement ability, or even more simply: what job a graduate has, is not the same as what job(s) a graduate has the capability of getting.


And from the bolded, as you so succinctly stated, I conclude that Northwestern is the lowest rank school I would attend with 200K-300K debt .... The End.


EDIT: I now see that OP has edited the original question from "What is the lowest T14 you would attend at sticker?" to "What are ALL of the T14s you would attend at sticker?" My entire argument addressed the first question.


Okay, I was only trying to emphasize the distinction between placement statistics and placement ability; a statistic in a vacuum is dangerous business.

Jose Reyes
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Re: T14 you'd attend with >$200 k expected debt?

Postby Jose Reyes » Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:41 pm

I'd retake before I attend any school below outside HYS, NYU, Columbia, Chicago at sticker. Sticker at any school below is just not worth it in today's market.

Myself
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Postby Myself » Wed Feb 06, 2013 11:50 pm

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Last edited by Myself on Sun Nov 24, 2013 10:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Crowing
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Re: T14 you'd attend with >$200 k expected debt?

Postby Crowing » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:07 am

Schools don't exist in a vacuum; NU has good placement because of the kind of student body it has. If somebody like me with no meaningful background went to NU, that person wouldn't end up with better opportunities there vs. other lower T14s.

Also: ITT more people choose GULC sticker over Duke. OKAY.

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banjo
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Re: T14 you'd attend with >$200 k expected debt?

Postby banjo » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:09 am

I went with HYSCC, which is what I picked in the previous thread that asked a similar question. Penn and NYU were close calls.

Betharl
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Re: T14 you'd attend with >$200 k expected debt?

Postby Betharl » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:27 am

Crowing wrote:Schools don't exist in a vacuum; NU has good placement because of the kind of student body it has. If somebody like me with no meaningful background went to NU, that person wouldn't end up with better opportunities there vs. other lower T14s.


I'm sure the WE is a factor, but might NU also have a leg up on some of the lower t14s (Duke, Michigan, Virginia) simply because it's located and feeds into a major market? Also, doesn't NU have one of the most robust JD/MBA programs of any t14? That probably skews the numbers against them in terms of legal placement as they may place a higher percentage of grads into quality business jobs than other t14s.

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BruceWayne
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Re: T14 you'd attend with >$200 k expected debt?

Postby BruceWayne » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:37 am

Crowing wrote:Schools don't exist in a vacuum; NU has good placement because of the kind of student body it has. If somebody like me with no meaningful background went to NU, that person wouldn't end up with better opportunities there vs. other lower T14s.

Also: ITT more people choose GULC sticker over Duke. OKAY.


This is true. But what people fail to realize overall about placement within the top 14 is what underlies the bolded. Once you're within the top 14 (excluding HYS and to a lesser extent CCN in NYC) rank is not what matters in regards to placement. Things like the market the school is located in, the market preferences of its students, the structure of the school's curve, how much w/e the students have, and class size all matter more than rank.

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NoodleyOne
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Re: T14 you'd attend with >$200 k expected debt?

Postby NoodleyOne » Thu Feb 07, 2013 12:41 am

The other thing to consider is a lot of where people would pay sticker for is dependent on what their options are. If you're a splitter who's only T14 hope is NU or UVA, you're more likely to choose those as an options, meanwhile if you're sitting there with a 6 figure scholly, you're more apt to be debt averse, since you can be debt averse while still having good job prospects. Also, K-JD with liberal arts degree? Sticker may be a good investment for you in lieu of the fact that your other employment opportunities is Starbucks, while dude with 3 years IBanking experience has other options. Polls like this are skewed for that reason. I know that, while I want to go into law to be a lawyer, it's also really my only chance at dat upper middle-class lifestyle, and my expected earnings in any other field are waaaay low, which can make the value of a school at sticker more worth it for me than other applicants.

That all being said... HYS.

20141023
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Re: T14 you'd attend with >$200 k expected debt?

Postby 20141023 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:28 am

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Last edited by 20141023 on Mon Feb 16, 2015 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

04102014
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Re: T14 you'd attend with >$200 k expected debt?

Postby 04102014 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:44 am

Lol at being willing to pay sticker at UVA but not Michigan.

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iShotFirst
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Re: T14 you'd attend with >$200 k expected debt?

Postby iShotFirst » Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:38 am

I don't see a "None of them" option here...

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star fox
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Re: T14 you'd attend with >$200 k expected debt?

Postby star fox » Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:52 am

ohpobrecito wrote:Lol at being willing to pay sticker at UVA but not Michigan.


Typical East Coast snobbery. Well, maybe not.. could just be a disproportionate number of East Coasters saying they would pay full price at a school like Penn and UVA that's not terribly far from where they grew up (yay travel expenses) and has more East Coast ties than leave for the Midwest. I know as a midwesterner through and true, I'd at least give Michigan consideration but would not pack up and ship myself off to UVA or Penn at full price even if people regard those as being better schools.

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thelawyler
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Re: T14 you'd attend with >$200 k expected debt?

Postby thelawyler » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:01 am

ohpobrecito wrote:Lol at being willing to pay sticker at UVA but not Michigan.


I found this odd too

curious66
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Re: T14 you'd attend with >$200 k expected debt?

Postby curious66 » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:50 am

thelawyler wrote:
ohpobrecito wrote:Lol at being willing to pay sticker at UVA but not Michigan.


I found this odd too


Yes, I thought it was strange as well. Think it is inherent preference vs. actual merit of either schools.

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somewhatwayward
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Re: T14 you'd attend with >$200 k expected debt?

Postby somewhatwayward » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:16 pm

thelawyler wrote:
ohpobrecito wrote:Lol at being willing to pay sticker at UVA but not Michigan.


I found this odd too


I think it is bc of the weird poll setup where if you want to pick Penn, you must puck UVA and Boalt, but Mich is all by itself. Personally I think Penn is defensible at sticker but not Mich or UVA or Boalt but the poll doesn't let me express that. Basically I think people are choosing PVB bc of Penn, not UVA. I agree that UVA is no better than Mich although neither are too great.

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Crowing
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Re: T14 you'd attend with >$200 k expected debt?

Postby Crowing » Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:32 pm

somewhatwayward wrote:
thelawyler wrote:
ohpobrecito wrote:Lol at being willing to pay sticker at UVA but not Michigan.


I found this odd too


I think it is bc of the weird poll setup where if you want to pick Penn, you must puck UVA and Boalt, but Mich is all by itself. Personally I think Penn is defensible at sticker but not Mich or UVA or Boalt but the poll doesn't let me express that. Basically I think people are choosing PVB bc of Penn, not UVA. I agree that UVA is no better than Mich although neither are too great.


Or boalt for people who want CA biglaw. I agree that it's prob not UVA here.

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UnamSanctam
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Re: T14 you'd attend with >$200 k expected debt?

Postby UnamSanctam » Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:23 pm

drmguy wrote:ITT: People paying sticker at a T14 click the school they are attending.


I, in fact, did not. Dumpster fire, my friend.

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megagnarley
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Re: T14 you'd attend with >$200 k expected debt?

Postby megagnarley » Fri Feb 08, 2013 7:10 pm

What exactly is the huge distinction between sticker and a medium scholly? This is what I've been trying to understand.

At a mid level t-14 75k of $$$ still puts you at around 200k of debt when all is said and done, which still seems like it's big law or bust.

I guess you can exit earlier and aren't in as much trouble if you get forced out early, but if you strike out you are still in a world of hurt.

What is the divisive difference ITE?

WhatOurBodiesAreFor
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Re: T14 you'd attend with >$200 k expected debt?

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:05 pm

megagnarley wrote:What exactly is the huge distinction between sticker and a medium scholly? This is what I've been trying to understand.

At a mid level t-14 75k of $$$ still puts you at around 200k of debt when all is said and done, which still seems like it's big law or bust.

I guess you can exit earlier and aren't in as much trouble if you get forced out early, but if you strike out you are still in a world of hurt.

What is the divisive difference ITE?


I'd also like someone to speak to this.

From what I gather here on TLS, I'd say it's the not-negligible difference in what the monthly payment on the 10-year plan would be: $2.5K compared to $1.7K

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Renne Walker
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Re: T14 you'd attend with >$200 k expected debt?

Postby Renne Walker » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:05 pm

Scholly $ aside, you need to factor income of $30K/$60K (depending if you secured a 1L SA). Plus, 3L SA income. The COL should not be 100% attributed to LS (you have to eat and live somewhere). I will admit that a higher portion of COL should be factored in if you have to reside in NYC.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: T14 you'd attend with >$200 k expected debt?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Feb 08, 2013 9:46 pm

WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:
megagnarley wrote:What exactly is the huge distinction between sticker and a medium scholly? This is what I've been trying to understand.

At a mid level t-14 75k of $$$ still puts you at around 200k of debt when all is said and done, which still seems like it's big law or bust.

I guess you can exit earlier and aren't in as much trouble if you get forced out early, but if you strike out you are still in a world of hurt.

What is the divisive difference ITE?


I'd also like someone to speak to this.

From what I gather here on TLS, I'd say it's the not-negligible difference in what the monthly payment on the 10-year plan would be: $2.5K compared to $1.7K

In practical terms there really is no difference, at least as far the job you'll need is concerned. Once you get much over 100K in debt you need either BigLaw or PI/GOV with LRAP/PSLF.

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megagnarley
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Re: T14 you'd attend with >$200 k expected debt?

Postby megagnarley » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:19 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
WhatOurBodiesAreFor wrote:
megagnarley wrote:What exactly is the huge distinction between sticker and a medium scholly? This is what I've been trying to understand.

At a mid level t-14 75k of $$$ still puts you at around 200k of debt when all is said and done, which still seems like it's big law or bust.

I guess you can exit earlier and aren't in as much trouble if you get forced out early, but if you strike out you are still in a world of hurt.

What is the divisive difference ITE?


I'd also like someone to speak to this.

From what I gather here on TLS, I'd say it's the not-negligible difference in what the monthly payment on the 10-year plan would be: $2.5K compared to $1.7K

In practical terms there really is no difference, at least as far the job you'll need is concerned. Once you get much over 100K in debt you need either BigLaw or PI/GOV with LRAP/PSLF.


That's what my numbers pointed at once I'd worked it all out. And that's why I don't understand why there is so much chatter around it being crazy to pay sticker but not so crazy to go with $$$.

If it is crazy to go to a school like Duke at sticker (not trolling, just an example), than it should be crazy to go to Duke with a 75k scholly, but for some reason consensus here on TLS doesn't seem to back that up...

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: T14 you'd attend with >$200 k expected debt?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:27 pm

megagnarley wrote:If it is crazy to go to a school like Duke at sticker (not trolling, just an example), than it should be crazy to go to Duke with a 75k scholly, but for some reason consensus here on TLS doesn't seem to back that up...

On the other hand, with a 75K scholly you can get out of the debt fairly quickly if you do get BigLaw. So if it's crazy to go to Duke at sticker because the BigLaw odds aren't good enough then I agree with you, but if it's crazy because even if you do land BigLaw the debt is too much then the scholarship makes a difference.

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megagnarley
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Re: T14 you'd attend with >$200 k expected debt?

Postby megagnarley » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:42 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
megagnarley wrote:If it is crazy to go to a school like Duke at sticker (not trolling, just an example), than it should be crazy to go to Duke with a 75k scholly, but for some reason consensus here on TLS doesn't seem to back that up...

On the other hand, with a 75K scholly you can get out of the debt fairly quickly if you do get BigLaw. So if it's crazy to go to Duke at sticker because the BigLaw odds aren't good enough then I agree with you, but if it's crazy because even if you do land BigLaw the debt is too much then the scholarship makes a difference.


Valid.

I would say worst case scenario is missing Biglaw boat entirely if upwards of 150k+ in debt, and to me it seems like that is why most people question going at sticker, which is why I'm questioning why mid-schollies aren't also crazy for the same reason.

I suppose ITE 75k at Duke would not be as crazy given an easier and quicker potential exit, but the potential to have that exit slammed entirely by striking out is just as high and punishing.

Which begs the overarching question of why I feel like consensus is 75k at Duke is a lot "safer" than sticker.

Less painful if successful, yes, but almost equally as painful if unsuccessful.

Alas...

ETA: Convoluted prose. Long week. Fuck it.

ETA2: This is also why I don't get the wisdom of someone going to, for example, UCLA with 75k over Berkeley at Sticker. You are 200k+ and need biglaw regardless so why do anything to minimize that chance if the danger of suffering post-strike is only nominally diminished.

beautyistruth
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Re: T14 you'd attend with >$200 k expected debt?

Postby beautyistruth » Fri Feb 15, 2013 12:58 am

megagnarley wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
megagnarley wrote:ETA2: This is also why I don't get the wisdom of someone going to, for example, UCLA with 75k over Berkeley at Sticker. You are 200k+ and need biglaw regardless so why do anything to minimize that chance if the danger of suffering post-strike is only nominally diminished.


This, pretty much. As somebody who's been trying to decide between a T6 at (now confirmed) sticker, UCLA with 90k, and potential money from the T-14, it seems like in this economy, the mild advantage you seem to get from a better-regarded school if you end up with debt that would require biglaw to pay off either way.

It seems to me that, given the bimodal salary distribution, it only makes sense to go to a lower-ranked school if the schools are essentially peers, or you get enough of a scholarship that you could land in the $40 k ish salary range and be financially okay, even if you're disappointed.




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