Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

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ColeWorld
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby ColeWorld » Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:44 pm

domino wrote:
UtilityMonster wrote:
domino wrote:^ I'm guessing that dude's ColeWorld--he was saying in another thread that Chicago was his #1 from the beginning of the cycle


Yeah, it was him. Did he offer a reason why Chicago was his #1? I'm guessing he has ties to the area?


I didn't see any more detail, but he is probably a robot, so his motivations might be hard to understand...

ETA robots are great


Yep that was me. My goal from day 1 of applications was to get the Ruby, so I had already put a lot of thought into the Y/S/H vs. Ruby decision before I was actually offered the scholarship. I have ties to Chicago, want to work in Chicago upon graduating, and don't plan on pursuing academia or a clerkship. Also my parents are pretty wealthy but will not be funding my law school, so I would have had to pay sticker at Y/S/H.

Since I knew I was taking the scholarship, I figured there was no point in waiting to hear back from Yale and Stanford.

EdgarWinter
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby EdgarWinter » Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:39 am

fluffythepenguin wrote:Hi everyone,

I posted the below in the "In at Harvard" thread, but I thought it might also be useful for people comparing taking the money at CCN vs attending HYS.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.....if you are dead set on utilizing LIPP once you graduate, it basically does not matter how much debt you take out. Unless your salary is above around 80k, you should be completely indifferent to 100k of debt versus 250k. So take out as many loans as you can.....



Just thought I'd pop in and say that this is a monumentally stupid idea. Most publicly interested 0Ls go into Biglaw for awhile, and you could be one of them. I'm sure LIPP is nice but it is no panacea to debt. I can (I guess? Maybe?) see going to H over $$$, but don't blithely take out $250k while you're at it.

vzapana
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby vzapana » Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:07 pm

EdgarWinter wrote:
fluffythepenguin wrote:Hi everyone,

I posted the below in the "In at Harvard" thread, but I thought it might also be useful for people comparing taking the money at CCN vs attending HYS.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.....if you are dead set on utilizing LIPP once you graduate, it basically does not matter how much debt you take out. Unless your salary is above around 80k, you should be completely indifferent to 100k of debt versus 250k. So take out as many loans as you can.....



Just thought I'd pop in and say that this is a monumentally stupid idea. Most publicly interested 0Ls go into Biglaw for awhile, and you could be one of them. I'm sure LIPP is nice but it is no panacea to debt. I can (I guess? Maybe?) see going to H over $$$, but don't blithely take out $250k while you're at it.


Also, people should never be "dead set" on anything; a PI/low-paying legal career can fail, and if you do have to get off the LIPP, you will still owe back-pay interest that accumulated over the years you've been on LIPP. Always have flexibility in your financial plan. Loan forgiveness plans aren't bullet-proof vests against debt.

howaboutthat
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby howaboutthat » Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:05 pm

This thread and so much of the hand waving among the "great inexperienced" (read: 0Ls and the like) amaze me. If you get one of these terrific scholarships, is it not only likely, but almost a certainty that you got into one of the YSH crowd (or would have but for the vagaries of the admissions processes)? Same with corresponding scholarships at NYU, Penn and, I suppose, Michigan and UVA, as well. But, certainly at Columbia or Chicago. As such, would not every recruiter assume you did, and that you made an economically sensible decision to attend one of the CC schools? If you then end up near the top of your class (which you would need to do at YSH, as well, for corresponding opportunities), why would the very best academic, clerkship, law firm, and consulting opportunities not be available to you? Someone who went to Columbia on a full scholarship being looked at as less than one of the 800-900 or so who instead went to Harvard (most of whom applied to Columbia, presumably, and most of whom did not receive such a scholarship offer)? Not likely.

If you have your heart set on the holy three -- and they are amazing institutions -- and would always question how you turned them down (whichever one, two or three), then your choice is made. Not that you would have to be vain to select a school in such a manner, either. The fit might be there, the additional motivation drawn from going to your dream school -- whatever, all good stuff. Otherwise, benefitting from both the financial and identification aspects of one of these scholarship awards, coupled with the ability to attend a world-class institution is a rather good bet. This would seem particularly the case versus Harvard, given the size of its class, relatively hard-core reputation (at least, say, compared to the relatively laid back atmospheres prevalent at Yale and Stanford), and its overall similarity to Columbia, and to a somewhat lesser degree, Chicago. No one in any relevant field looks down, in the slightest, at someone who attended Columbia or Chicago on such a scholarship.

vzapana
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby vzapana » Sun Feb 24, 2013 2:27 pm

howaboutthat wrote:This thread and so much of the hand waving among the "great inexperienced" (read: 0Ls and the like) amaze me. If you get one of these terrific scholarships, is it not only likely, but almost a certainty that you got into one of the YSH crowd (or would have but for the vagaries of the admissions processes)? Same with corresponding scholarships at NYU, Penn and, I suppose, Michigan and UVA, as well. But, certainly at Columbia or Chicago. As such, would not every recruiter assume you did, and that you made an economically sensible decision to attend one of the CC schools? If you then end up near the top of your class (which you would need to do at YSH, as well, for corresponding opportunities), why would the very best academic, clerkship, law firm, and consulting opportunities not be available to you? Someone who went to Columbia on a full scholarship being looked at as less than one of the 800-900 or so who instead went to Harvard (most of whom applied to Columbia, presumably, and most of whom did not receive such a scholarship offer)? Not likely.

If you have your heart set on the holy three -- and they are amazing institutions -- and would always question how you turned them down (whichever one, two or three), then your choice is made. Not that you would have to be vain to select a school in such a manner, either. The fit might be there, the additional motivation drawn from going to your dream school -- whatever, all good stuff. Otherwise, benefitting from both the financial and identification aspects of one of these scholarship awards, coupled with the ability to attend a world-class institution is a rather good bet. This would seem particularly the case versus Harvard, given the size of its class, relatively hard-core reputation (at least, say, compared to the relatively laid back atmospheres prevalent at Yale and Stanford), and its overall similarity to Columbia, and to a somewhat lesser degree, Chicago. No one in any relevant field looks down, in the slightest, at someone who attended Columbia or Chicago on such a scholarship.


did you turn down hys for one of these awards?

howaboutthat
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby howaboutthat » Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:54 pm

vzapana wrote:
howaboutthat wrote:This thread and so much of the hand waving among the "great inexperienced" (read: 0Ls and the like) amaze me. If you get one of these terrific scholarships, is it not only likely, but almost a certainty that you got into one of the YSH crowd (or would have but for the vagaries of the admissions processes)? Same with corresponding scholarships at NYU, Penn and, I suppose, Michigan and UVA, as well. But, certainly at Columbia or Chicago. As such, would not every recruiter assume you did, and that you made an economically sensible decision to attend one of the CC schools? If you then end up near the top of your class (which you would need to do at YSH, as well, for corresponding opportunities), why would the very best academic, clerkship, law firm, and consulting opportunities not be available to you? Someone who went to Columbia on a full scholarship being looked at as less than one of the 800-900 or so who instead went to Harvard (most of whom applied to Columbia, presumably, and most of whom did not receive such a scholarship offer)? Not likely.

If you have your heart set on the holy three -- and they are amazing institutions -- and would always question how you turned them down (whichever one, two or three), then your choice is made. Not that you would have to be vain to select a school in such a manner, either. The fit might be there, the additional motivation drawn from going to your dream school -- whatever, all good stuff. Otherwise, benefitting from both the financial and identification aspects of one of these scholarship awards, coupled with the ability to attend a world-class institution is a rather good bet. This would seem particularly the case versus Harvard, given the size of its class, relatively hard-core reputation (at least, say, compared to the relatively laid back atmospheres prevalent at Yale and Stanford), and its overall similarity to Columbia, and to a somewhat lesser degree, Chicago. No one in any relevant field looks down, in the slightest, at someone who attended Columbia or Chicago on such a scholarship.


did you turn down hys for one of these awards?



My law school days predate these awards. I do, however, have extensive experience with graduates from all of the mentioned schools.

az21833
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby az21833 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:42 pm

howaboutthat wrote:This thread and so much of the hand waving among the "great inexperienced" (read: 0Ls and the like) amaze me. If you get one of these terrific scholarships, is it not only likely, but almost a certainty that you got into one of the YSH crowd (or would have but for the vagaries of the admissions processes)? Same with corresponding scholarships at NYU, Penn and, I suppose, Michigan and UVA, as well. But, certainly at Columbia or Chicago. As such, would not every recruiter assume you did, and that you made an economically sensible decision to attend one of the CC schools? If you then end up near the top of your class (which you would need to do at YSH, as well, for corresponding opportunities), why would the very best academic, clerkship, law firm, and consulting opportunities not be available to you? Someone who went to Columbia on a full scholarship being looked at as less than one of the 800-900 or so who instead went to Harvard (most of whom applied to Columbia, presumably, and most of whom did not receive such a scholarship offer)? Not likely.

If you have your heart set on the holy three -- and they are amazing institutions -- and would always question how you turned them down (whichever one, two or three), then your choice is made. Not that you would have to be vain to select a school in such a manner, either. The fit might be there, the additional motivation drawn from going to your dream school -- whatever, all good stuff. Otherwise, benefitting from both the financial and identification aspects of one of these scholarship awards, coupled with the ability to attend a world-class institution is a rather good bet. This would seem particularly the case versus Harvard, given the size of its class, relatively hard-core reputation (at least, say, compared to the relatively laid back atmospheres prevalent at Yale and Stanford), and its overall similarity to Columbia, and to a somewhat lesser degree, Chicago. No one in any relevant field looks down, in the slightest, at someone who attended Columbia or Chicago on such a scholarship.


i think there are some opportunities that are out there for hys students but not ccn students. certain clerkships and certain biglaw firms (ie wachtell, cravath types) heavily favor hys students. employers wont care if you had a scholarship or paid sticker.

Ti Malice
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby Ti Malice » Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:46 pm

vzapana wrote:Loan forgiveness plans aren't bullet-proof vests against debt.


Well, COAP essentially is. :mrgreen:

howaboutthat
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby howaboutthat » Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:01 pm

i think there are some opportunities that are out there for hys students but not ccn students. certain clerkships and certain biglaw firms (ie wachtell, cravath types) heavily favor hys students. employers wont care if you had a scholarship or paid sticker.[/quote]


These particular named scholarships at Columbia and Chicago? Really? Of course they will. Paul Cravath went to Columbia; Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen and Katz all graduated from NYU. Gee, do you think those firms know what these scholarships to CCN (and a few select other schools) are? You cannot put everything in a resume, but do you think the recipients of these honors do not say something like "Columbia Law School (Hamilton Scholar)"? Bingo, message received. YSH are all wonderful, but stop the hero worship. The amount of misinformation, misconstruction, and "I think"-based nonsense on these message boards is mind boggling and does a disservice to institutions, firms and individuals.

az21833
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby az21833 » Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:14 pm

you can definitely put it on your resume, I agree. But they will primarily care about how you did in law school, not how much you paid while you were there. if you did great in UG and aced the LSAT and ended up with a full ride but are only median of your class, they wont care at all whatsoever especially vs. the student that barely got in off WL, paid sticker, worked their ass off, ended up top 10% and landed law review.

but chances are you will do just fine at any school you are going to for free
Last edited by az21833 on Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

fluffythepenguin
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby fluffythepenguin » Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:15 pm

i think there are some opportunities that are out there for hys students but not ccn students. certain clerkships and certain biglaw firms (ie wachtell, cravath types) heavily favor hys students. employers wont care if you had a scholarship or paid sticker.



howaboutthat wrote:These particular named scholarships at Columbia and Chicago? Really? Of course they will. Paul Cravath went to Columbia; Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen and Katz all graduated from NYU. Gee, do you think those firms know what these scholarships to CCN (and a few select other schools) are? You cannot put everything in a resume, but do you think the recipients of these honors do not say something like "Columbia Law School (Hamilton Scholar)"? Bingo, message received. YSH are all wonderful, but stop the hero worship. The amount of misinformation, misconstruction, and "I think"-based nonsense on these message boards is mind boggling and does a disservice to institutions, firms and individuals.


Is this in your personal experience as a hiring partner/clerk/judge, or is this just conjecture? A few people have posted on this board that the Rubenstein/Hamliton resume line does essentially nothing for them when it comes to hiring, and they are treated just as a normal member of the school they attend. In which case, students might not get the hiring/prestige/intangibles boost they would get if they went to HYS.

Ti Malice
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby Ti Malice » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:35 pm

howaboutthat wrote:
i think there are some opportunities that are out there for hys students but not ccn students. certain clerkships and certain biglaw firms (ie wachtell, cravath types) heavily favor hys students. employers wont care if you had a scholarship or paid sticker.



These particular named scholarships at Columbia and Chicago? Really? Of course they will. Paul Cravath went to Columbia; Wachtell, Lipton, Rosen and Katz all graduated from NYU. Gee, do you think those firms know what these scholarships to CCN (and a few select other schools) are? You cannot put everything in a resume, but do you think the recipients of these honors do not say something like "Columbia Law School (Hamilton Scholar)"? Bingo, message received. YSH are all wonderful, but stop the hero worship. The amount of misinformation, misconstruction, and "I think"-based nonsense on these message boards is mind boggling and does a disservice to institutions, firms and individuals.


What that poster said is largely consistent with all of the many reports on this board from people with Hamiltons, Levys, Darrows, etc. The usual response to learning of these scholarships from employers appears to amount to "Oh. Cool."

run26.2
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby run26.2 » Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:56 pm

abstractcircles wrote:Wow, can't believe I'm posting in this thread....

I just received my Rubenstein today, prior to today I was 100% set on going to Harvard. I have a science background and am planning to go in to patent prosecution or end up as intellectual property in-house council. I also have an interest in "transactional law" - mainly writing contracts for biotech/pharma. I plan to end up in the bay area california (haven't heard from SLS yet.....).

My primary focus is on picking the best choice for making sure I'm employed in my chosen field after law school. Yes in the short term having the Rubenstein would be amazing, but if Harvard gave me a better edge as far as securing a dream job then I may actually earn much more over the next 30 years than I would have saved with the Rubenstein.

Anyone have any advice? Facing a similar situation?

I did not go to either of these schools, but I have worked in a firm that did a lot of patent prosecution and now I work for a different firm, in the Bay Area (although I literally had no ties to the area before coming), doing patent litigation. I just wanted to share a few thoughts on your position. From what I have seen in the industry, most people doing patent prosecution come out of lower ranked schools. Lots come from GW, as an example--although in the Bay Area, there are a lot of people in all aspects of IP law from Berkeley. I don't think that people generally go to Harvard or Chicago to do patent prosecution. Not to say that you shouldn't, it's just not a super common occurrence.

At the large patent boutique where I summered, I recall one guy was from Harvard, though I'm pretty sure there were others, and I don't recall any from Chicago.

If I were in your shoes, I would to to Chicago, because I don't think Harvard is necessarily going to give you a leg up for patent prosecution. The main difference is going to be exposure to firms at OCI. Many of the renowned firms that do patent prosecution in the Bay Area will go to Harvard's OCI, but not Chicago's. All this means is that you will need to do a little more leg-work on your part.

Here's how you can do this. Do a little googling to find out which firms have these practice areas in the Bay Area. Off the top of my head, MoFo, Fish, Finnegan all have offices out here. As for tech transactions, the big players are Wilson Sonsini, Fenwick and West, Cooley, a few others. Then use the NALP Directory for each of these firms' Bay Area offices to see if they come to OCI. I did this for a few of the firms above, and most were going to Harvard, and a couple also were going to Chicago's OCI. Doing this shows that Harvard will be an easier route if you want to rely on OCI alone.

However, if you are a little more enterprising, you should still be able to garner interest from the same firms. Most, if not all of these firms will be in Chicago for the Loyola Patent Law Interview Program (PLIP). You can meet many patent firms there. A degree from either of these schools would stand out at PLIP, as most people attending will be from much lower ranked schools. Also, you should look over the bios of the attorneys on the firms' websites and look for people from the school you choose. I did this for several highly regarded firms (GP firms even), and was able to secure interviews this way. Additionally, you will probably have professors with connections at these firms, and you can turn those into interviews (I also did this).

The one thing that I didn't really have time to do while writing this response was to look at the firms' websites and try to see if there were an appreciably greater number of people from Harvard in the prosecution or transaction groups. This could change the analysis, and I would encourage you to do that. Still, I doubt you will have trouble coming from Chicago.

In sum, I think Harvard will allow you to rely on the traditional OCI route (although even there, I would be doing a lot of networking to improve my chances). However, I think that a free education from Chicago is such a good opportunity, and the school is very well regarded, so that with a little hustle, you should easily be able to get in front of employers without much trouble. Then it's up to you to seal the deal. Feel free to PM if you have any questions about the above, and good luck.

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UtilityMonster
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby UtilityMonster » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:13 pm

Has there been a single success negotiating merit money with a top 3 school using a H/R? Does HYS ever offer merit money to steal you from another one of HYS?

vzapana
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby vzapana » Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:49 pm

UtilityMonster wrote:Has there been a single success negotiating merit money with a top 3 school using a H/R? Does HYS ever offer merit money to steal you from another one of HYS?


I just looked at LSN data from the last five admission cycles. Not many HYS admits bothered to include financial aid information on their profiles. Of the few I found, only one reported successfully increasing his HYS financial aid package.

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/clydebarrow
"-3/25/10: finaid letter from Yale. Scholarship above (NEED-BASED GRANT) is a 3-year projection. The grant is for $25,450 per year, but since I will likely try to work at a firm during my 2L summer, I expect YLS would offer me no need-based money for my 3L year.
-4/8/10: finaid letter from Harvard. Offer of $18,690 grant per year.
-4/14/10: finaid letter from Stanford. Offer of $10,456 grant per year. Sent Harvard and Stanford emails detailing Yale's finaid offer to see if they would consider matching.
-4/19/10: Stanford offers new finaid package of $24,825 in need-based grants per year.
-4/21/10: Harvard emails to say its finaid offer isn't changing."

Can't find any Ruby/Hamilton recipients who reported getting HYS packages raised.

Ti Malice
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby Ti Malice » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:25 pm

vzapana wrote:
UtilityMonster wrote:Has there been a single success negotiating merit money with a top 3 school using a H/R? Does HYS ever offer merit money to steal you from another one of HYS?


I just looked at LSN data from the last five admission cycles. Not many HYS admits bothered to include financial aid information on their profiles. Of the few I found, only one reported successfully increasing his HYS financial aid package.

http://lawschoolnumbers.com/clydebarrow
"-3/25/10: finaid letter from Yale. Scholarship above (NEED-BASED GRANT) is a 3-year projection. The grant is for $25,450 per year, but since I will likely try to work at a firm during my 2L summer, I expect YLS would offer me no need-based money for my 3L year.
-4/8/10: finaid letter from Harvard. Offer of $18,690 grant per year.
-4/14/10: finaid letter from Stanford. Offer of $10,456 grant per year. Sent Harvard and Stanford emails detailing Yale's finaid offer to see if they would consider matching.
-4/19/10: Stanford offers new finaid package of $24,825 in need-based grants per year.
-4/21/10: Harvard emails to say its finaid offer isn't changing."

Can't find any Ruby/Hamilton recipients who reported getting HYS packages raised.


I've only ever heard of YHS increasing their offers in consideration of other YHS offers, and even then it's exceedingly rare. In those very few cases, it seemed to come down to the financial aid officer finding some non-optimal way that the applicant reported financial info, resulting in a smaller grant than was justified.

bbsg
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby bbsg » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:25 am

As someone sitting without an HLS/SLS/YLS offer and a Hamilton, my decision right now is pretty easy. And I'd almost certainly take the Hamilton over SLS.

If I'm so lucky as to get into HLS/YLS, though, then the real decision making begins. Thanks for taking the time to compile relevant threads.

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carboncopyx
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby carboncopyx » Fri Mar 01, 2013 5:21 pm

Checking in! Would solicit advice given my situation, but I've decided to celebrate the rest of the day before having to make real-life considerations. I am honored to be posting in here, though.

vman21
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby vman21 » Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:31 pm

howaboutthat wrote:This thread and so much of the hand waving among the "great inexperienced" (read: 0Ls and the like) amaze me. If you get one of these terrific scholarships, is it not only likely, but almost a certainty that you got into one of the YSH crowd (or would have but for the vagaries of the admissions processes)? Same with corresponding scholarships at NYU, Penn and, I suppose, Michigan and UVA, as well. But, certainly at Columbia or Chicago. As such, would not every recruiter assume you did, and that you made an economically sensible decision to attend one of the CC schools? If you then end up near the top of your class (which you would need to do at YSH, as well, for corresponding opportunities), why would the very best academic, clerkship, law firm, and consulting opportunities not be available to you? Someone who went to Columbia on a full scholarship being looked at as less than one of the 800-900 or so who instead went to Harvard (most of whom applied to Columbia, presumably, and most of whom did not receive such a scholarship offer)? Not likely.

If you have your heart set on the holy three -- and they are amazing institutions -- and would always question how you turned them down (whichever one, two or three), then your choice is made. Not that you would have to be vain to select a school in such a manner, either. The fit might be there, the additional motivation drawn from going to your dream school -- whatever, all good stuff. Otherwise, benefitting from both the financial and identification aspects of one of these scholarship awards, coupled with the ability to attend a world-class institution is a rather good bet. This would seem particularly the case versus Harvard, given the size of its class, relatively hard-core reputation (at least, say, compared to the relatively laid back atmospheres prevalent at Yale and Stanford), and its overall similarity to Columbia, and to a somewhat lesser degree, Chicago. No one in any relevant field looks down, in the slightest, at someone who attended Columbia or Chicago on such a scholarship.


I just got done reading a 10+ page thread of a V10 non-equity partner with 6 yrs of exp in biglaw NYC taking q's. He/she said there was absolutely a prestige gap between HYS/CCN for one simple reason: clients, not lawyers, are stupid. They want a bunch of "harvard kids" or "yale kids" etc. working on their cases, and they also want "supreme court clerks" etc. I am sure you are right that anyone who knows that they are talking about wouldn't look down on CCN vs. HYS, but most people in the world don't know what they are talking about. And those people are often clients. Their irrational preferences shape the market, and the market creates an incentive to prefer HYS over CCN (named scholly or no).

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Spritzpiggy
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby Spritzpiggy » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:57 am

vman21 wrote:
howaboutthat wrote:This thread and so much of the hand waving among the "great inexperienced" (read: 0Ls and the like) amaze me. If you get one of these terrific scholarships, is it not only likely, but almost a certainty that you got into one of the YSH crowd (or would have but for the vagaries of the admissions processes)? Same with corresponding scholarships at NYU, Penn and, I suppose, Michigan and UVA, as well. But, certainly at Columbia or Chicago. As such, would not every recruiter assume you did, and that you made an economically sensible decision to attend one of the CC schools? If you then end up near the top of your class (which you would need to do at YSH, as well, for corresponding opportunities), why would the very best academic, clerkship, law firm, and consulting opportunities not be available to you? Someone who went to Columbia on a full scholarship being looked at as less than one of the 800-900 or so who instead went to Harvard (most of whom applied to Columbia, presumably, and most of whom did not receive such a scholarship offer)? Not likely.

If you have your heart set on the holy three -- and they are amazing institutions -- and would always question how you turned them down (whichever one, two or three), then your choice is made. Not that you would have to be vain to select a school in such a manner, either. The fit might be there, the additional motivation drawn from going to your dream school -- whatever, all good stuff. Otherwise, benefitting from both the financial and identification aspects of one of these scholarship awards, coupled with the ability to attend a world-class institution is a rather good bet. This would seem particularly the case versus Harvard, given the size of its class, relatively hard-core reputation (at least, say, compared to the relatively laid back atmospheres prevalent at Yale and Stanford), and its overall similarity to Columbia, and to a somewhat lesser degree, Chicago. No one in any relevant field looks down, in the slightest, at someone who attended Columbia or Chicago on such a scholarship.


I just got done reading a 10+ page thread of a V10 non-equity partner with 6 yrs of exp in biglaw NYC taking q's. He/she said there was absolutely a prestige gap between HYS/CCN for one simple reason: clients, not lawyers, are stupid. They want a bunch of "harvard kids" or "yale kids" etc. working on their cases, and they also want "supreme court clerks" etc. I am sure you are right that anyone who knows that they are talking about wouldn't look down on CCN vs. HYS, but most people in the world don't know what they are talking about. And those people are often clients. Their irrational preferences shape the market, and the market creates an incentive to prefer HYS over CCN (named scholly or no).


Can you please post the link to this thread. I'm searching but haven't found it yet. Thanks :)

bigbirdfly
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby bigbirdfly » Sat Mar 02, 2013 4:51 pm

vman21 wrote:
howaboutthat wrote:This thread and so much of the hand waving among the "great inexperienced" (read: 0Ls and the like) amaze me. If you get one of these terrific scholarships, is it not only likely, but almost a certainty that you got into one of the YSH crowd (or would have but for the vagaries of the admissions processes)? Same with corresponding scholarships at NYU, Penn and, I suppose, Michigan and UVA, as well. But, certainly at Columbia or Chicago. As such, would not every recruiter assume you did, and that you made an economically sensible decision to attend one of the CC schools? If you then end up near the top of your class (which you would need to do at YSH, as well, for corresponding opportunities), why would the very best academic, clerkship, law firm, and consulting opportunities not be available to you? Someone who went to Columbia on a full scholarship being looked at as less than one of the 800-900 or so who instead went to Harvard (most of whom applied to Columbia, presumably, and most of whom did not receive such a scholarship offer)? Not likely.

If you have your heart set on the holy three -- and they are amazing institutions -- and would always question how you turned them down (whichever one, two or three), then your choice is made. Not that you would have to be vain to select a school in such a manner, either. The fit might be there, the additional motivation drawn from going to your dream school -- whatever, all good stuff. Otherwise, benefitting from both the financial and identification aspects of one of these scholarship awards, coupled with the ability to attend a world-class institution is a rather good bet. This would seem particularly the case versus Harvard, given the size of its class, relatively hard-core reputation (at least, say, compared to the relatively laid back atmospheres prevalent at Yale and Stanford), and its overall similarity to Columbia, and to a somewhat lesser degree, Chicago. No one in any relevant field looks down, in the slightest, at someone who attended Columbia or Chicago on such a scholarship.


I just got done reading a 10+ page thread of a V10 non-equity partner with 6 yrs of exp in biglaw NYC taking q's. He/she said there was absolutely a prestige gap between HYS/CCN for one simple reason: clients, not lawyers, are stupid. They want a bunch of "harvard kids" or "yale kids" etc. working on their cases, and they also want "supreme court clerks" etc. I am sure you are right that anyone who knows that they are talking about wouldn't look down on CCN vs. HYS, but most people in the world don't know what they are talking about. And those people are often clients. Their irrational preferences shape the market, and the market creates an incentive to prefer HYS over CCN (named scholly or no).


If what clients wanted really mattered that match, V5 will be filled with grads from Harvard (the H bomb to corporate clients is not the same as the S bomb or the Y bomb if there even are such things), maybe with a few Yale, Stanford, Columbia, and Chicago kids (all of the non-Harvard grads were only hired because they clerked on SCOTUS of course).

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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby UtilityMonster » Wed Mar 06, 2013 2:30 pm

I don't want this thread to die. It would be great if we all ended up posting where we wind up after all is said and done, and what our rationales were in making our decisions.

Is anyone closer to a decision?

It is still up in the air for me. I have gotten some personal contact from Chicago professors but nothing of the sort from Harvard professors. Has anyone else gotten personalized emails from any of HYSCC?

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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby carboncopyx » Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:30 pm

So after this weekend, I'm looking at Hamilton vs. HLS vs. YLS. I've talked to current/graduated students at all three schools, and I just end up feeling really enthusiastic about whichever school the person I'm talking to is at/graduated from (which isn't helpful at all in the end). My leanings change on an hourly basis, it seems. Columbia sends me a loooooot of letters in the mail, but I haven't had much contact with faculty aside from that.

My career goals would be either biglaw -> clerkship or clerkship -> biglaw (don't really care what order), and then either try to go in-house or position myself for a judgeship. I'm not expecting much need-based aid, but I'd be willing to take out loans in addition to whatever my parents are willing to contribute. (I'm submitting my financial aid forms next week, but I really do think my packages will be minimal at best.) My question is: given my career goals, at what amount, if any, is HLS or YLS not worth the debt? Thoughts?

ETA: I have a pretty strong personal geographic preference in the order of Cambridge > NYC > New Haven, as well.
Last edited by carboncopyx on Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby curious66 » Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:38 pm

carboncopyx wrote:So after this weekend, I'm looking at Hamilton vs. HLS vs. YLS. I've talked to current/graduated students at all three schools, and I just end up feeling really enthusiastic about whichever school the person I'm talking to is at/graduated from (which isn't helpful at all in the end). My leanings change on an hourly basis, it seems. Columbia sends me a loooooot of letters in the mail, but I haven't had much contact with faculty aside from that.

My career goals would be either biglaw -> clerkship or clerkship -> biglaw (don't really care what order), and then either try to go in-house or position myself for a judgeship. I'm not expecting much need-based aid, but I'd be willing to take out loans in addition to whatever my parents are willing to contribute. (I'm submitting my financial aid forms next week, but I really do think my packages will be minimal at best.) My question is: given my career goals, at what amount, if any, is HLS or YLS not worth the debt? Thoughts?


Most folks would kill for your choices. Have you visited HLS or YLS? I would rule out HLS over YLS. So, YLS over Hamilton at Columbia. Yale is consistently #1 and the campus is fabulous however. New Haven is not anything to rave about. Columbia is not as beautiful but NYC is incredible. You will be fine at either place and one is essentially free. I would go visit and pick. Taking out loans for Yale is not the worst outcome you could have if you really love it.

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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby carboncopyx » Wed Mar 06, 2013 3:43 pm

curious66 wrote:
carboncopyx wrote:So after this weekend, I'm looking at Hamilton vs. HLS vs. YLS. I've talked to current/graduated students at all three schools, and I just end up feeling really enthusiastic about whichever school the person I'm talking to is at/graduated from (which isn't helpful at all in the end). My leanings change on an hourly basis, it seems. Columbia sends me a loooooot of letters in the mail, but I haven't had much contact with faculty aside from that.

My career goals would be either biglaw -> clerkship or clerkship -> biglaw (don't really care what order), and then either try to go in-house or position myself for a judgeship. I'm not expecting much need-based aid, but I'd be willing to take out loans in addition to whatever my parents are willing to contribute. (I'm submitting my financial aid forms next week, but I really do think my packages will be minimal at best.) My question is: given my career goals, at what amount, if any, is HLS or YLS not worth the debt? Thoughts?


Most folks would kill for your choices. Have you visited HLS or YLS? I would rule out HLS over YLS. So, YLS over Hamilton at Columbia. Yale is consistently #1 and the campus is fabulous however. New Haven is not anything to rave about. Columbia is not as beautiful but NYC is incredible. You will be fine at either place and one is essentially free. I would go visit and pick. Taking out loans for Yale is not the worst outcome you could have if you really love it.

I have personal geographic reasons for preferring Cambridge or NYC to New Haven, which are pretty strong unless something REALLY earth-shattering comes along. I've always wondered about the general lack of enthusiasm for HLS in these types of situations, as well. What is it about YLS that HLS lacks which makes it more of a contender against the Hamilton?




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