Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

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Doorkeeper
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby Doorkeeper » Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:11 pm

I'll make this simple.

What are your life goals?

If biglaw, then Chicago.

If bigfed, academia, or 100% PI, go Harvard.

Don't cling to Harvard because of the name, but it's a certainly legitimate choice if your life plans necessitate a path that is much easier done at Harvard than Chicago.

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howlery
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby howlery » Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:39 pm

Why do people on TLS always suggest that anyone with bigfed goals should choose HYS (or H in the above case) over $? I'm guessing it has something to do with placement, but aren't most bigfed attorneys laterals from biglaw anyway? You'll be paying ~80%+ of your loans with a bigfed job on LIPP, so I don't see that as the big draw either.

Is the HYS name just that important in government?

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Doorkeeper
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby Doorkeeper » Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:42 pm

howlery wrote:Why do people on TLS always suggest that anyone with bigfed goals should choose HYS (or H in the above case) over $? I'm guessing it has something to do with placement, but aren't most bigfed attorneys laterals from biglaw anyway? You'll be paying ~80%+ of your loans with a bigfed job on LIPP, so I don't see that as the big draw either.

Is the HYS name just that important in government?

As someone who had a bigfed job before law school, I can tell you that unofficial connections are very important for prestigious bigfed jobs. Taking classes from (and getting on good terms with) multiple former WH Counsels/OLP Directors/etc helps down the line. HY are unparalleled when it comes to faculty who've previously worked in prestigious bigfed positions (S less so). I can't speak to Y, but H also has a great amount of administrative support to get alums into bigfed positions.

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howlery
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby howlery » Sun Apr 14, 2013 11:59 pm

Doorkeeper wrote:
howlery wrote:Why do people on TLS always suggest that anyone with bigfed goals should choose HYS (or H in the above case) over $? I'm guessing it has something to do with placement, but aren't most bigfed attorneys laterals from biglaw anyway? You'll be paying ~80%+ of your loans with a bigfed job on LIPP, so I don't see that as the big draw either.

Is the HYS name just that important in government?

As someone who had a bigfed job before law school, I can tell you that unofficial connections are very important for prestigious bigfed jobs. Taking classes from (and getting on good terms with) multiple former WH Counsels/OLP Directors/etc helps down the line. HY are unparalleled when it comes to faculty who've previously worked in prestigious bigfed positions (S less so). I can't speak to Y, but H also has a great amount of administrative support to get alums into bigfed positions.


Couldn't someone go from Chi, which has a clerkship placement of ~14% vs H's ~18% (though the latter's class is much larger), to a COA->biglaw->bigfed without HYS debt? Or would this still be difficult without an "in?"

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Doorkeeper
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby Doorkeeper » Mon Apr 15, 2013 12:06 am

howlery wrote:
Doorkeeper wrote:
howlery wrote:Why do people on TLS always suggest that anyone with bigfed goals should choose HYS (or H in the above case) over $? I'm guessing it has something to do with placement, but aren't most bigfed attorneys laterals from biglaw anyway? You'll be paying ~80%+ of your loans with a bigfed job on LIPP, so I don't see that as the big draw either.

Is the HYS name just that important in government?

As someone who had a bigfed job before law school, I can tell you that unofficial connections are very important for prestigious bigfed jobs. Taking classes from (and getting on good terms with) multiple former WH Counsels/OLP Directors/etc helps down the line. HY are unparalleled when it comes to faculty who've previously worked in prestigious bigfed positions (S less so). I can't speak to Y, but H also has a great amount of administrative support to get alums into bigfed positions.


Couldn't someone go from Chi, which has a clerkship placement of ~14% vs H's ~18% (though the latter's class is much larger), to a COA->biglaw->bigfed without HYS debt? Or would this still be difficult without an "in?"

I mean a clerkship, and the network one builds via a clerkship, is certainly beneficial, but just because someone does a COA clerkship doesn't automatically mean they'll be snatched up by fed gov. It's much more important that you get the faculty contacts that can funnel you to the office/division, etc that you want to work in. Chances are high though that if you make the right faculty mentors then both the clerkship and the fed gov position can be accomplished at the same time. Yes Chicago has those faculty members as well, but Harvard has both more faculty with fed gov experience and ties and better administrative support to get you where you need to go (especially with the current administration).

Again, if fed gov is something that you'd like to think about 3-5 years from now and maybe you'll do it, but you really want biglaw, then Chicago is the way to go. But if you're going to law school with the 100% end goal of fed gov work, then I would give the definitive nod to Harvard to get you there. Whether that improvement in chances is worth $100-200k is really a substantive call.

vzapana
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby vzapana » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:17 am

just declined my ruby. hurts a little, but i know it's the right decision. good luck everyone, especially those with ruby deadlines today!

mommalee
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby mommalee » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:50 am

Declining as well. Should be the best for my family.

eph
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby eph » Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:20 pm

Declined as well. I think it is the right decision. Time will tell.

USAIRS
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby USAIRS » Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:41 pm

Doorkeeper wrote:
Doorkeeper wrote:As someone who had a bigfed job before law school, I can tell you that unofficial connections are very important for prestigious bigfed jobs. Taking classes from (and getting on good terms with) multiple former WH Counsels/OLP Directors/etc helps down the line. HY are unparalleled when it comes to faculty who've previously worked in prestigious bigfed positions (S less so). I can't speak to Y, but H also has a great amount of administrative support to get alums into bigfed positions.



I mean a clerkship, and the network one builds via a clerkship, is certainly beneficial, but just because someone does a COA clerkship doesn't automatically mean they'll be snatched up by fed gov. It's much more important that you get the faculty contacts that can funnel you to the office/division, etc that you want to work in. Chances are high though that if you make the right faculty mentors then both the clerkship and the fed gov position can be accomplished at the same time. Yes Chicago has those faculty members as well, but Harvard has both more faculty with fed gov experience and ties and better administrative support to get you where you need to go (especially with the current administration).

Again, if fed gov is something that you'd like to think about 3-5 years from now and maybe you'll do it, but you really want biglaw, then Chicago is the way to go. But if you're going to law school with the 100% end goal of fed gov work, then I would give the definitive nod to Harvard to get you there. Whether that improvement in chances is worth $100-200k is really a substantive call.


I don't want to derail this thread, but you really couldn't be more wrong with respect to hiring practices for non-political entry level career attorney positions in federal agencies. We don't live in communist russia where some professor who used to work in a political appointment can leverage his prior connections into a job for you as a career government attorney. Especially if that political position was something in the white house. Whether it is DOL, SEC, HUD, DOD, DOJ, or any other common agency that does entry-level hiring, the entry-level hiring decisions are made primarily by other career employees who are simply looking for the most qualified candidate. This is a really obvious point that I'd expect anyone paying attention to know, but the COA clerkship, with the outstanding credentials it implies, would pretty much guarantee a spot somewhere in the federal government, if the candidate applied broadly enough. Having a recommendation from a political appointee, absent the same types of credentials, is not really worth much.

In addition, I'd say there isn't any discernable bump for going to Harvard over almost any top 10 school. With so many factors going into hiring, such as commitment to the practice area or to government, fit, journal work, publications, legal experience, internships, pre-law experience, interviews, and grades, I'm willing to say that the decision will basically never come down to which school you went to among these schools.

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Emma.
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby Emma. » Mon Apr 15, 2013 2:57 pm

USAIRS wrote:
Doorkeeper wrote:
Doorkeeper wrote:As someone who had a bigfed job before law school, I can tell you that unofficial connections are very important for prestigious bigfed jobs. Taking classes from (and getting on good terms with) multiple former WH Counsels/OLP Directors/etc helps down the line. HY are unparalleled when it comes to faculty who've previously worked in prestigious bigfed positions (S less so). I can't speak to Y, but H also has a great amount of administrative support to get alums into bigfed positions.



I mean a clerkship, and the network one builds via a clerkship, is certainly beneficial, but just because someone does a COA clerkship doesn't automatically mean they'll be snatched up by fed gov. It's much more important that you get the faculty contacts that can funnel you to the office/division, etc that you want to work in. Chances are high though that if you make the right faculty mentors then both the clerkship and the fed gov position can be accomplished at the same time. Yes Chicago has those faculty members as well, but Harvard has both more faculty with fed gov experience and ties and better administrative support to get you where you need to go (especially with the current administration).

Again, if fed gov is something that you'd like to think about 3-5 years from now and maybe you'll do it, but you really want biglaw, then Chicago is the way to go. But if you're going to law school with the 100% end goal of fed gov work, then I would give the definitive nod to Harvard to get you there. Whether that improvement in chances is worth $100-200k is really a substantive call.


I don't want to derail this thread, but you really couldn't be more wrong with respect to hiring practices for non-political entry level career attorney positions in federal agencies. We don't live in communist russia where some professor who used to work in a political appointment can leverage his prior connections into a job for you as a career government attorney. Especially if that political position was something in the white house. Whether it is DOL, SEC, HUD, DOD, DOJ, or any other common agency that does entry-level hiring, the entry-level hiring decisions are made primarily by other career employees who are simply looking for the most qualified candidate. This is a really obvious point that I'd expect anyone paying attention to know, but the COA clerkship, with the outstanding credentials it implies, would pretty much guarantee a spot somewhere in the federal government, if the candidate applied broadly enough. Having a recommendation from a political appointee, absent the same types of credentials, is not really worth much.

In addition, I'd say there isn't any discernable bump for going to Harvard over almost any top 10 school. With so many factors going into hiring, such as commitment to the practice area or to government, fit, journal work, publications, legal experience, internships, pre-law experience, interviews, and grades, I'm willing to say that the decision will basically never come down to which school you went to among these schools.


Take this to heart, 0Ls. This is a post from someone who knows what they are talking about.

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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby eph » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:24 pm

Rubbish. Talking my position of course.

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Emma.
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby Emma. » Mon Apr 15, 2013 3:33 pm

eph wrote:Rubbish. Talking my position of course.


Right, because as an 0L you know better than an experienced USAO.

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howlery
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby howlery » Mon Apr 15, 2013 4:03 pm

Emma. wrote:
eph wrote:Rubbish. Talking my position of course.


Right, because as an 0L you know better than an experienced USAO.


I think eph was trying to joke around in light of USAIR's comments since he/she just turned down a full ride at CCN for HYS.

Thanks for the replies, very educational! I'll go back to lurking this thread. :P

levin892
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby levin892 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 6:34 pm

Just turned down my Ruby. Probably one of the hardest things I've ever done. Harvard here I come.
Last edited by levin892 on Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

USAIRS
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby USAIRS » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:07 pm

eph wrote:Rubbish. Talking my position of course.


Please don't take what I said as advocating one way or the other. There are stupider things to blow money on than the perpetual-pat-on-the-back that is a Harvard degree on your wall (assuming you can afford a wall). I just didn't like the suggestion that the current hiring is not merit-based. Even a cursory look at the people that get hired in DOJ and USAOs would set that idea to rest - these are very accomplished people. Back when Monica Goodling was criticised for introducing improper politically-motivated hiring decisions into the DOJ, the point was that it actually hurt qualified applicants from top schools. As far as I know, though, other agencies did not have similar problems.

http://www.justice.gov/oig/special/s0806/final.pdf

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Doorkeeper
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby Doorkeeper » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:24 pm

USAIRS wrote:I don't want to derail this thread, but you really couldn't be more wrong with respect to hiring practices for non-political entry level career attorney positions in federal agencies. We don't live in communist russia where some professor who used to work in a political appointment can leverage his prior connections into a job for you as a career government attorney. Especially if that political position was something in the white house. Whether it is DOL, SEC, HUD, DOD, DOJ, or any other common agency that does entry-level hiring, the entry-level hiring decisions are made primarily by other career employees who are simply looking for the most qualified candidate. This is a really obvious point that I'd expect anyone paying attention to know, but the COA clerkship, with the outstanding credentials it implies, would pretty much guarantee a spot somewhere in the federal government, if the candidate applied broadly enough. Having a recommendation from a political appointee, absent the same types of credentials, is not really worth much.

In addition, I'd say there isn't any discernable bump for going to Harvard over almost any top 10 school. With so many factors going into hiring, such as commitment to the practice area or to government, fit, journal work, publications, legal experience, internships, pre-law experience, interviews, and grades, I'm willing to say that the decision will basically never come down to which school you went to among these schools.

I know you work at a USAO, which I have no knowledge of and cannot speak to regarding hiring policies, but I worked in a mixed policy and legal office in a bigfed agency (think: FDA, HHS, NIH area) for three years before law school and every single one of our legal hires was via academic or professional connections. To my knowledge, other offices hired pretty similarly.

I don't doubt that some fed positions are run without prior connections, but it's just not true that all entry level hiring in agencies is done without connections.

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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:35 pm

USAIRS wrote:There are stupider things to blow money on than the perpetual-pat-on-the-back that is a Harvard degree on your wall (assuming you can afford a wall).

This should be the new TLS motto.

USAIRS
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby USAIRS » Mon Apr 15, 2013 7:37 pm

Doorkeeper wrote:I know you work at a USAO, which I have no knowledge of and cannot speak to regarding hiring policies, but I worked in a mixed policy and legal office in a bigfed agency (think: FDA, HHS, NIH area) for three years before law school and every single one of our legal hires was via academic or professional connections. To my knowledge, other offices hired pretty similarly.

I don't doubt that some fed positions are run without prior connections, but it's just not true that all entry level hiring in agencies is done without connections.


First, I only ever speak in my own personal experience, and not ever in my professional capacity in this forum.

Second, I have no intention of arguing with you since it is really beneath me and to no one's additional benefit. I trust everyone can take what you originally said and my subsequent clarification for what they are worth.

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2012applicant2013
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby 2012applicant2013 » Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:22 pm

Declined Ruby today. It really hurt but i had to go with my heart.

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Spritzpiggy
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby Spritzpiggy » Mon Apr 15, 2013 8:27 pm

Is there any place to find a list of DOJ honors hires over the past couple of years? I want to see if tls wisdom that Harvard prevails in govt actually holds true.

canarykb
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby canarykb » Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:08 pm

Accepted my Ruby today. Excited to get a swank as fuck Hyde Park apartment with dat living stipend.

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UtilityMonster
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby UtilityMonster » Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:20 pm

Congrats to everyone who made a decision. I'm confident all of you did the right thing for you after much deliberation.

When is the Hamilton deadline?

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bernaldiaz
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby bernaldiaz » Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:23 pm

UtilityMonster wrote:Congrats to everyone who made a decision. I'm confident all of you did the right thing for you after much deliberation.

When is the Hamilton deadline?


You should make a poll with four options-- got ruby accepted, declined, got hammy accepted, declined. Would be interested to see the numbers

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JollyGreenGiant
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby JollyGreenGiant » Mon Apr 15, 2013 9:33 pm

canarykb wrote:Accepted my Ruby today. Excited to get a swank as fuck Hyde Park apartment with dat living stipend.

While I admire the (swaaaaaaaaaaaag) in the post, swank in Hyde Park? I dunno man.

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carboncopyx
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Re: Hamilton/Rubenstein c/o 2016

Postby carboncopyx » Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:05 pm

UtilityMonster wrote:When is the Hamilton deadline?

May 1... am I going to pretty much wait until the final day to make a decision? Yes, yes, I am.




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