Wake/W&M/W&L Forum

[Circlewave]

From PA originally, DC undergrad.

I'm still waiting on a few schools, but these three are my top choices right now. I'd like DC, but would also like VA or NC. I haven't negotiated yet, but assuming the worst, which would likely be the best option if I wanted to clerk or work for somewhere like the DOJ?

*I will have some assistance with COL, so my loans will be almost entirely tuition.

[timbs4339]

From PA originally, DC undergrad.

I'm still waiting on a few schools, but these three are my top choices right now. I'd like DC, but would also like VA or NC. I haven't negotiated yet, but assuming the worst, which would likely be the best option if I wanted to clerk or work for somewhere like the DOJ?

*I will have some assistance with COL, so my loans will be almost entirely tuition.

Clerk or work for the DOJ?

[UAX09]

I attended undergrad at a DC school. W&M is well known and respected in the greater DC region. I would choose W&M despite W&L's higher ranking.

[ndirish2010]

W&L has the best clerkship placement of the three, but TCR is retake.

[nebula666]

From PA originally, DC undergrad.

I'm still waiting on a few schools, but these three are my top choices right now. I'd like DC, but would also like VA or NC. I haven't negotiated yet, but assuming the worst, which would likely be the best option if I wanted to clerk or work for somewhere like the DOJ?

*I will have some assistance with COL, so my loans will be almost entirely tuition.

Clerk or work for the DOJ?

WL and WM both place more overall into clerkships than Duke, Michigan, Virginia, Vandy, Berkeley, Chicago, Penn, Columbia, NU, Cornell, etc. They are #16 and #18, respectively for Federal clerkships.

[Crowing]

From PA originally, DC undergrad.

I'm still waiting on a few schools, but these three are my top choices right now. I'd like DC, but would also like VA or NC. I haven't negotiated yet, but assuming the worst, which would likely be the best option if I wanted to clerk or work for somewhere like the DOJ?

*I will have some assistance with COL, so my loans will be almost entirely tuition.

Clerk or work for the DOJ?

WL and WM both place more overall into clerkships than Duke, Michigan, Virginia, Vandy, Berkeley, Chicago, Penn, Columbia, NU, Cornell, etc. They are #16 and #18, respectively for Federal clerkships.

not as a percentage of the class

[timbs4339]

From PA originally, DC undergrad.

I'm still waiting on a few schools, but these three are my top choices right now. I'd like DC, but would also like VA or NC. I haven't negotiated yet, but assuming the worst, which would likely be the best option if I wanted to clerk or work for somewhere like the DOJ?

*I will have some assistance with COL, so my loans will be almost entirely tuition.

Clerk or work for the DOJ?

WL and WM both place more overall into clerkships than Duke, Michigan, Virginia, Vandy, Berkeley, Chicago, Penn, Columbia, NU, Cornell, etc. They are #16 and #18, respectively for Federal clerkships.

nebula666 dum dum dum dum dum

[ndirish2010]

From PA originally, DC undergrad.

I'm still waiting on a few schools, but these three are my top choices right now. I'd like DC, but would also like VA or NC. I haven't negotiated yet, but assuming the worst, which would likely be the best option if I wanted to clerk or work for somewhere like the DOJ?

*I will have some assistance with COL, so my loans will be almost entirely tuition.

Clerk or work for the DOJ?

WL and WM both place more overall into clerkships than Duke, Michigan, Virginia, Vandy, Berkeley, Chicago, Penn, Columbia, NU, Cornell, etc. They are #16 and #18, respectively for Federal clerkships.

not as a percentage of the class

Ummm, what? You realize W&L is one of the smallest Tier 1 schools right? They place about 8% into federal clerkships, which is better than a few T14s, as mentioned above.

[Crowing]

dunno what to say other than "you're wrong." the only correctly referenced school in that post is gulc.

cornell 8%
duke 11.1%
chicago 9.4%
michigan 10.6%
northwestern 8%
columbia 8.1%
berkeley 9.7%
virginia 10.6%
nyu 10.9%
penn 9.1%
vandy 10.1%

w&l 7.8%

[timbs4339]

Can any W+L or W+M students comment on the clerkship rate? I noticed their state:federal ratio is more than 1:1, which is not common for schools placing more than 5% into fed clerkships. Either the VA supreme court is 50/50 W+L and W+M grads, some of these federal clerkships are admin clerks or unpaid, or they have some faculty members with huge pull.

[FamilyLawEsq]

Wake has the Metropolitan Exchange Program in DC for a semester, not sure if the other schools do.

[IrwinM.Fletcher]

Your job prospects are basically the same from any of these schools. Wake is the lowest ranked but placed the highest % at NALP firms among your three options. The difference, however, between a school that places 11% in biglaw vs one that places 14% in biglaw is pretty non-existent.

Follow the money.

[nebula666]

dunno what to say other than "you're wrong." the only correctly referenced school in that post is gulc.

cornell 8%
duke 11.1%
chicago 9.4%
michigan 10.6%
northwestern 8%
columbia 8.1%
berkeley 9.7%
virginia 10.6%
nyu 10.9%
penn 9.1%
vandy 10.1%

w&l 7.8%

I said more overall but I meant % of the class, which is still true. Yes, I understand that federal clerkships are much more prestigious, but if OP just wants any clerkship, see above. I know that schools like Rutgers, UNLV and Seton Hall place a lot more into state/local than WL, but when you combine state/local + federal clerkships, WL is not a bad choice.

Also, WL is less than 1% less than a few of those schools. It's comparable to almost all of the T14 for federal clerkships except HYS.

[timbs4339]

dunno what to say other than "you're wrong." the only correctly referenced school in that post is gulc.

cornell 8%
duke 11.1%
chicago 9.4%
michigan 10.6%
northwestern 8%
columbia 8.1%
berkeley 9.7%
virginia 10.6%
nyu 10.9%
penn 9.1%
vandy 10.1%

w&l 7.8%

I said more overall but I meant % of the class, which is still true. Yes, I understand that federal clerkships are much more prestigious, but if OP just wants any clerkship, see above. I know that schools like Rutgers, UNLV and Seton Hall place a lot more into state/local than WL, but when you combine state/local + federal clerkships, WL is not a bad choice.

Also, WL is less than 1% less than a few of those schools. It's comparable to almost all of the T14 for federal clerkships except HYS.

It may be comparable percentage wise, but are those clerkships AIII? Are they federal district magistrates? Or are they with Social Security Administration judges? Or are they unpaid or school-funded? T14 schools generally place most of their clerks into AIII clerkships, not state clerkships. I'm not sure why these schools would have a special feed into the AIII clerkship market but can't place students into biglaw.

Also his mention of DOJ made me think he wanted federal AIII clerkships. DOJ is going to be near-impossible out of any of those schools.

[ndirish2010]

Loyal judges. W&L alumni network is pretty solid. It is kind of the same reason ND has placed 6-8% in A3.

[timbs4339]

Loyal judges. W&L alumni network is pretty solid. It is kind of the same reason ND has placed 6-8% in A3.

Do you go to W+L?

[Circlewave]

Loyal judges. W&L alumni network is pretty solid. It is kind of the same reason ND has placed 6-8% in A3.

Do you go to W+L?

dat username...

[ndirish2010]

Loyal judges. W&L alumni network is pretty solid. It is kind of the same reason ND has placed 6-8% in A3.

Do you go to W+L?

LOL.

Loyal judges + small class size = good A3 percentage.

[timbs4339]

Loyal judges. W&L alumni network is pretty solid. It is kind of the same reason ND has placed 6-8% in A3.

Do you go to W+L?

dat username...

dat rhetorical question...

Loyal judges. W&L alumni network is pretty solid. It is kind of the same reason ND has placed 6-8% in A3.

Do you go to W+L?

LOL.

Loyal judges + small class size = good A3 percentage.

I'd need more than claims of "loyal judges" to attend W+L in expectation that they are placing 8% in A3 clerkships. Why are their judges so loyal when their biglaw alumni are not?

[ndirish2010]

Loyal judges. W&L alumni network is pretty solid. It is kind of the same reason ND has placed 6-8% in A3.

Do you go to W+L?

dat username...

dat rhetorical question...

Loyal judges. W&L alumni network is pretty solid. It is kind of the same reason ND has placed 6-8% in A3.

Do you go to W+L?

LOL.

Loyal judges + small class size = good A3 percentage.

I'd need more than claims of "loyal judges" to attend W+L in expectation that they are placing 8% in A3 clerkships. Why are their judges so loyal when their biglaw alumni are not?

Judges make hiring decisions on their own. Firms don't operate this way. Small class size hurts W&L's power in big firms (to the extent they have a presence at all).

Note that I'm not saying that OP should go to W&L, just giving an explanation for their solid A3 percentage.

[timbs4339]

Judges make hiring decisions on their own. Firms don't operate this way. Small class size hurts W&L's power in big firms (to the extent they have a presence at all).

Note that I'm not saying that OP should go to W&L, just giving an explanation for their solid A3 percentage.

But small class size means they need to place fewer students. And if W+L has AIII judges as alumni they should certainly have enough powerful biglaw partners to give them more than a 12.4% large firm score.

I'm just not sure how you can measure "loyal alumni" since every school claims to have them. If a school has loyal alumni it should be outplacing in all categories.

It's more likely a lot of these federal clerkships are non-AIII, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong by someone with real data.

[Cellar-door]

Judges make hiring decisions on their own. Firms don't operate this way. Small class size hurts W&L's power in big firms (to the extent they have a presence at all).

Note that I'm not saying that OP should go to W&L, just giving an explanation for their solid A3 percentage.

But small class size means they need to place fewer students. And if W+L has AIII judges as alumni they should certainly have enough powerful biglaw partners to give them more than a 12.4% large firm score.

I'm just not sure how you can measure "loyal alumni" since every school claims to have them. If a school has loyal alumni it should be outplacing in all categories.

It's more likely a lot of these federal clerkships are non-AIII, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong by someone with real data.

USNWR has W&L with these numbers for Article III judges: 9% for class of 2007, 7% in 2009 which are the only two I could find data on.