Wake/W&M/W&L

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which

Wake - 25k/yr, good standing stip
10
38%
W&L - 15k/yr, 3.15 stip
8
31%
W&M - 10k/yr, C average stip
8
31%
 
Total votes: 26

Circlewave
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Wake/W&M/W&L

Postby Circlewave » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:06 am

From PA originally, DC undergrad.

I'm still waiting on a few schools, but these three are my top choices right now. I'd like DC, but would also like VA or NC. I haven't negotiated yet, but assuming the worst, which would likely be the best option if I wanted to clerk or work for somewhere like the DOJ?

*I will have some assistance with COL, so my loans will be almost entirely tuition.

timbs4339
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Re: Wake/W&M/W&L

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 12:16 am

Circlewave wrote:From PA originally, DC undergrad.

I'm still waiting on a few schools, but these three are my top choices right now. I'd like DC, but would also like VA or NC. I haven't negotiated yet, but assuming the worst, which would likely be the best option if I wanted to clerk or work for somewhere like the DOJ?

*I will have some assistance with COL, so my loans will be almost entirely tuition.


Clerk or work for the DOJ?

Image

UAX09
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Re: Wake/W&M/W&L

Postby UAX09 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:49 pm

I attended undergrad at a DC school. W&M is well known and respected in the greater DC region. I would choose W&M despite W&L's higher ranking.

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ndirish2010
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Re: Wake/W&M/W&L

Postby ndirish2010 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 5:59 pm

W&L has the best clerkship placement of the three, but TCR is retake.

nebula666
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Re: Wake/W&M/W&L

Postby nebula666 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:04 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
Circlewave wrote:From PA originally, DC undergrad.

I'm still waiting on a few schools, but these three are my top choices right now. I'd like DC, but would also like VA or NC. I haven't negotiated yet, but assuming the worst, which would likely be the best option if I wanted to clerk or work for somewhere like the DOJ?

*I will have some assistance with COL, so my loans will be almost entirely tuition.


Clerk or work for the DOJ?


WL and WM both place more overall into clerkships than Duke, Michigan, Virginia, Vandy, Berkeley, Chicago, Penn, Columbia, NU, Cornell, etc. They are #16 and #18, respectively for Federal clerkships.

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Crowing
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Re: Wake/W&M/W&L

Postby Crowing » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:26 pm

nebula666 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
Circlewave wrote:From PA originally, DC undergrad.

I'm still waiting on a few schools, but these three are my top choices right now. I'd like DC, but would also like VA or NC. I haven't negotiated yet, but assuming the worst, which would likely be the best option if I wanted to clerk or work for somewhere like the DOJ?

*I will have some assistance with COL, so my loans will be almost entirely tuition.


Clerk or work for the DOJ?


WL and WM both place more overall into clerkships than Duke, Michigan, Virginia, Vandy, Berkeley, Chicago, Penn, Columbia, NU, Cornell, etc. They are #16 and #18, respectively for Federal clerkships.


not as a percentage of the class

timbs4339
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Re: Wake/W&M/W&L

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:42 pm

nebula666 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
Circlewave wrote:From PA originally, DC undergrad.

I'm still waiting on a few schools, but these three are my top choices right now. I'd like DC, but would also like VA or NC. I haven't negotiated yet, but assuming the worst, which would likely be the best option if I wanted to clerk or work for somewhere like the DOJ?

*I will have some assistance with COL, so my loans will be almost entirely tuition.


Clerk or work for the DOJ?


WL and WM both place more overall into clerkships than Duke, Michigan, Virginia, Vandy, Berkeley, Chicago, Penn, Columbia, NU, Cornell, etc. They are #16 and #18, respectively for Federal clerkships.


nebula666 dum dum dum dum dum

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ndirish2010
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Re: Wake/W&M/W&L

Postby ndirish2010 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:57 pm

Crowing wrote:
nebula666 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
Circlewave wrote:From PA originally, DC undergrad.

I'm still waiting on a few schools, but these three are my top choices right now. I'd like DC, but would also like VA or NC. I haven't negotiated yet, but assuming the worst, which would likely be the best option if I wanted to clerk or work for somewhere like the DOJ?

*I will have some assistance with COL, so my loans will be almost entirely tuition.


Clerk or work for the DOJ?


WL and WM both place more overall into clerkships than Duke, Michigan, Virginia, Vandy, Berkeley, Chicago, Penn, Columbia, NU, Cornell, etc. They are #16 and #18, respectively for Federal clerkships.


not as a percentage of the class


Ummm, what? You realize W&L is one of the smallest Tier 1 schools right? They place about 8% into federal clerkships, which is better than a few T14s, as mentioned above.

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Crowing
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Re: Wake/W&M/W&L

Postby Crowing » Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:06 pm

dunno what to say other than "you're wrong." the only correctly referenced school in that post is gulc.

cornell 8%
duke 11.1%
chicago 9.4%
michigan 10.6%
northwestern 8%
columbia 8.1%
berkeley 9.7%
virginia 10.6%
nyu 10.9%
penn 9.1%
vandy 10.1%

w&l 7.8%

timbs4339
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Re: Wake/W&M/W&L

Postby timbs4339 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 9:11 pm

Can any W+L or W+M students comment on the clerkship rate? I noticed their state:federal ratio is more than 1:1, which is not common for schools placing more than 5% into fed clerkships. Either the VA supreme court is 50/50 W+L and W+M grads, some of these federal clerkships are admin clerks or unpaid, or they have some faculty members with huge pull.

FamilyLawEsq
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Re: Wake/W&M/W&L

Postby FamilyLawEsq » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:55 pm

Wake has the Metropolitan Exchange Program in DC for a semester, not sure if the other schools do.

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IrwinM.Fletcher
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Re: Wake/W&M/W&L

Postby IrwinM.Fletcher » Thu Jan 31, 2013 10:10 pm

Your job prospects are basically the same from any of these schools. Wake is the lowest ranked but placed the highest % at NALP firms among your three options. The difference, however, between a school that places 11% in biglaw vs one that places 14% in biglaw is pretty non-existent.

Follow the money.

nebula666
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Re: Wake/W&M/W&L

Postby nebula666 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 9:23 am

Crowing wrote:dunno what to say other than "you're wrong." the only correctly referenced school in that post is gulc.

cornell 8%
duke 11.1%
chicago 9.4%
michigan 10.6%
northwestern 8%
columbia 8.1%
berkeley 9.7%
virginia 10.6%
nyu 10.9%
penn 9.1%
vandy 10.1%

w&l 7.8%


I said more overall but I meant % of the class, which is still true. Yes, I understand that federal clerkships are much more prestigious, but if OP just wants any clerkship, see above. I know that schools like Rutgers, UNLV and Seton Hall place a lot more into state/local than WL, but when you combine state/local + federal clerkships, WL is not a bad choice.

Also, WL is less than 1% less than a few of those schools. It's comparable to almost all of the T14 for federal clerkships except HYS.

timbs4339
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Re: Wake/W&M/W&L

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:08 am

nebula666 wrote:
Crowing wrote:dunno what to say other than "you're wrong." the only correctly referenced school in that post is gulc.

cornell 8%
duke 11.1%
chicago 9.4%
michigan 10.6%
northwestern 8%
columbia 8.1%
berkeley 9.7%
virginia 10.6%
nyu 10.9%
penn 9.1%
vandy 10.1%

w&l 7.8%


I said more overall but I meant % of the class, which is still true. Yes, I understand that federal clerkships are much more prestigious, but if OP just wants any clerkship, see above. I know that schools like Rutgers, UNLV and Seton Hall place a lot more into state/local than WL, but when you combine state/local + federal clerkships, WL is not a bad choice.

Also, WL is less than 1% less than a few of those schools. It's comparable to almost all of the T14 for federal clerkships except HYS.


It may be comparable percentage wise, but are those clerkships AIII? Are they federal district magistrates? Or are they with Social Security Administration judges? Or are they unpaid or school-funded? T14 schools generally place most of their clerks into AIII clerkships, not state clerkships. I'm not sure why these schools would have a special feed into the AIII clerkship market but can't place students into biglaw.

Also his mention of DOJ made me think he wanted federal AIII clerkships. DOJ is going to be near-impossible out of any of those schools.

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ndirish2010
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Re: Wake/W&M/W&L

Postby ndirish2010 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:04 pm

Loyal judges. W&L alumni network is pretty solid. It is kind of the same reason ND has placed 6-8% in A3.

timbs4339
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Re: Wake/W&M/W&L

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:25 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:Loyal judges. W&L alumni network is pretty solid. It is kind of the same reason ND has placed 6-8% in A3.


Do you go to W+L?

Circlewave
Posts: 114
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Re: Wake/W&M/W&L

Postby Circlewave » Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:51 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:Loyal judges. W&L alumni network is pretty solid. It is kind of the same reason ND has placed 6-8% in A3.


Do you go to W+L?


dat username...

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ndirish2010
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Re: Wake/W&M/W&L

Postby ndirish2010 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:33 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:Loyal judges. W&L alumni network is pretty solid. It is kind of the same reason ND has placed 6-8% in A3.


Do you go to W+L?


LOL.

Loyal judges + small class size = good A3 percentage.

timbs4339
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Re: Wake/W&M/W&L

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 2:59 pm

Circlewave wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:Loyal judges. W&L alumni network is pretty solid. It is kind of the same reason ND has placed 6-8% in A3.


Do you go to W+L?


dat username...


dat rhetorical question...

ndirish2010 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:Loyal judges. W&L alumni network is pretty solid. It is kind of the same reason ND has placed 6-8% in A3.


Do you go to W+L?


LOL.

Loyal judges + small class size = good A3 percentage.


I'd need more than claims of "loyal judges" to attend W+L in expectation that they are placing 8% in A3 clerkships. Why are their judges so loyal when their biglaw alumni are not?

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ndirish2010
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Re: Wake/W&M/W&L

Postby ndirish2010 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:23 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
Circlewave wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:Loyal judges. W&L alumni network is pretty solid. It is kind of the same reason ND has placed 6-8% in A3.


Do you go to W+L?


dat username...


dat rhetorical question...

ndirish2010 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:Loyal judges. W&L alumni network is pretty solid. It is kind of the same reason ND has placed 6-8% in A3.


Do you go to W+L?


LOL.

Loyal judges + small class size = good A3 percentage.


I'd need more than claims of "loyal judges" to attend W+L in expectation that they are placing 8% in A3 clerkships. Why are their judges so loyal when their biglaw alumni are not?


Judges make hiring decisions on their own. Firms don't operate this way. Small class size hurts W&L's power in big firms (to the extent they have a presence at all).

Note that I'm not saying that OP should go to W&L, just giving an explanation for their solid A3 percentage.

timbs4339
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Re: Wake/W&M/W&L

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:46 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:
Judges make hiring decisions on their own. Firms don't operate this way. Small class size hurts W&L's power in big firms (to the extent they have a presence at all).

Note that I'm not saying that OP should go to W&L, just giving an explanation for their solid A3 percentage.


But small class size means they need to place fewer students. And if W+L has AIII judges as alumni they should certainly have enough powerful biglaw partners to give them more than a 12.4% large firm score.

I'm just not sure how you can measure "loyal alumni" since every school claims to have them. If a school has loyal alumni it should be outplacing in all categories.

It's more likely a lot of these federal clerkships are non-AIII, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong by someone with real data.

Cellar-door
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Re: Wake/W&M/W&L

Postby Cellar-door » Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:04 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:
Judges make hiring decisions on their own. Firms don't operate this way. Small class size hurts W&L's power in big firms (to the extent they have a presence at all).

Note that I'm not saying that OP should go to W&L, just giving an explanation for their solid A3 percentage.


But small class size means they need to place fewer students. And if W+L has AIII judges as alumni they should certainly have enough powerful biglaw partners to give them more than a 12.4% large firm score.

I'm just not sure how you can measure "loyal alumni" since every school claims to have them. If a school has loyal alumni it should be outplacing in all categories.

It's more likely a lot of these federal clerkships are non-AIII, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong by someone with real data.


USNWR has W&L with these numbers for Article III judges: 9% for class of 2007, 7% in 2009 which are the only two I could find data on.




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