Should I be proud of breaking T14/T10?

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dixiecupdrinking
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Re: Should I be proud of breaking T14/T10?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Thu Jan 31, 2013 3:58 pm

RhymesLikeDimes wrote:No doubt that NYU is a great school, but I just don't see them in the same class as CC, even if they are #6. I see people debating NYU vs. Columbia all the time (often with NYU getting the majority of support), but almost never see anyone pick NYU over CLS without significant scholarship money. Going by LSN, it is quite a bit easier to get into, so I think a lot of that is rationalization.

Well. I did this. (Basically comparable amounts of money.) What you "see" is extremely limited. Also +1 to the observation that employers couldn't care less what the acceptance rate for one school versus another is.

grapefruits
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Re: Should I be proud of breaking T14/T10?

Postby grapefruits » Thu Jan 31, 2013 4:01 pm

Suralin wrote:
NYstate wrote:
RhymesLikeDimes wrote:No doubt that NYU is a great school, but I just don't see them in the same class as CC, even if they are #6. I see people debating NYU vs. Columbia all the time (often with NYU getting the majority of support), but almost never see anyone pick NYU over CLS without significant scholarship money. Going by LSN, it is quite a bit easier to get into, so I think a lot of that is rationalization.

I didn't go to NYU but I know that biglaw employers view them as peers. Some give Columbia or NYU a slight edge over the other. There are firms that feel NYU is better.You need to get out of this mindset of ranking schools based on who chooses to attend and at what price. It isn't important.No one practicing law or hiring lawyers in NYC cares about which of these schools are "easier to get into" based on whatever analysis of LSN. No one even knows what LSN is. Not to mention, your analysis is probably flawed.


This. Admissions selectivity != employment prospects


Too much 0L, know-it-all, hive mind. They're peers. People have usnwr shoved so far up their asses that they discount NYU Law's usnwr by NYU's UG usnwr.

ETA: also: no you shouldn't be proud. Getting into a T14 requires little more than not being an idiot. The LSAT is not a difficult test. Getting a 3.75+ takes little effort. It's not especially difficult to have no egregious C&F issues. Not sure what there is to be proud of. If you get a scotus clerkship, you can be proud of yourself.

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megagnarley
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Re: Should I be proud of breaking T14/T10?

Postby megagnarley » Thu Jan 31, 2013 9:15 pm

grapefruits wrote:
Suralin wrote:
NYstate wrote:
RhymesLikeDimes wrote:No doubt that NYU is a great school, but I just don't see them in the same class as CC, even if they are #6. I see people debating NYU vs. Columbia all the time (often with NYU getting the majority of support), but almost never see anyone pick NYU over CLS without significant scholarship money. Going by LSN, it is quite a bit easier to get into, so I think a lot of that is rationalization.

I didn't go to NYU but I know that biglaw employers view them as peers. Some give Columbia or NYU a slight edge over the other. There are firms that feel NYU is better.You need to get out of this mindset of ranking schools based on who chooses to attend and at what price. It isn't important.No one practicing law or hiring lawyers in NYC cares about which of these schools are "easier to get into" based on whatever analysis of LSN. No one even knows what LSN is. Not to mention, your analysis is probably flawed.


This. Admissions selectivity != employment prospects


Too much 0L, know-it-all, hive mind. They're peers. People have usnwr shoved so far up their asses that they discount NYU Law's usnwr by NYU's UG usnwr.

ETA: also: no you shouldn't be proud. Getting into a T14 requires little more than not being an idiot. The LSAT is not a difficult test. Getting a 3.75+ takes little effort. It's not especially difficult to have no egregious C&F issues. Not sure what there is to be proud of. If you get a scotus clerkship, you can be proud of yourself.


wut

Jose Reyes
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Re: Should I be proud of breaking T14/T10?

Postby Jose Reyes » Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:55 am

Tom Joad wrote:Be proud for a couple days then accept that you are just another average T10 scrub. Just meat into a grinder.


lol this made me laugh.

OP, if you have the itch to retake and think you can improve, go ahead do it.......less debt on the back end is always a plus.

pastapplicant
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Re: Should I be proud of breaking T14/T10?

Postby pastapplicant » Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:10 am

lol i remember the days when i used to waste my time as an undergrad arguing about meaningless tiers on this website. it took less than a semester in law school to realize that no one cares about these distinctions when they hire law students.

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WhiteyCakes
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Re: Should I be proud of breaking T14/T10?

Postby WhiteyCakes » Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:24 am

yes

WhatOurBodiesAreFor
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Re: Should I be proud of breaking T14/T10?

Postby WhatOurBodiesAreFor » Fri Feb 01, 2013 12:59 pm

grapefruits wrote:Too much 0L, know-it-all, hive mind. They're peers. People have usnwr shoved so far up their asses that they discount NYU Law's usnwr by NYU's UG usnwr.

ETA: also: no you shouldn't be proud. Getting into a T14 requires little more than not being an idiot. The LSAT is not a difficult test. Getting a 3.75+ takes little effort. It's not especially difficult to have no egregious C&F issues. Not sure what there is to be proud of. If you get a scotus clerkship, you can be proud of yourself.


+1 to this first comment. I think we need to put ourselves in the shoes of someone who is not TLS-obsessed and of employers who don't follow USNWR rankings religiously. There are distinctions, but they're wildly overplayed. Georgetown is not Harvard, but U Florida is not Georgetown, and U Florida is not TTT.

For one, non-TLS-obsessed applicants will probably choose location/ties/vibe more than their ranking. For example, if someone is accepted to Chicago and Georgetown but went to UG at GWU, s/he's likely to go to GULC, right? Employers do - and they would be stupid not to - realize this. Employers know that if this guy got into Harvard he would have probably went, but they won't let the UChi grads have a significantly greater chance than GULC grads because they are peers. Neither of them are Harvard, but neither of them is Florida. I truly believe that's about as far as employers will look into it. (Now, to be sure, I'm sure in the chicago market, UChi will have an adv over NU and in the NYC market NYU and Columbia will have one over Cornell.)




And to the second comment: You sound like a douche. Sure, asking other people if you should be proud of yourself is pretty immature. But getting a T-14 acceptance has either taken a lot of hard work and dedication and/or a lot of innate talent. Some people are even overcoming significant odds as well.

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Re: Should I be proud of breaking T14/T10?

Postby JO 14 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 1:42 pm

MrHairyLegs wrote: I've come to see my T-14 acceptances as worthless. I'd be paying full sticker at these schools. . . .

T-14 Arithmetic. You pay $150K (tuition) to earn $1.6M over the next ten years. After taxes you wind up netting a $125K a month to pay a $20K monthly debt. All this and you do not even have to be a superstar. Just do not drop too far below median (even then you might net $70K, leaving you $50K a year after debt).

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Re: Should I be proud of breaking T14/T10?

Postby pastapplicant » Fri Feb 01, 2013 3:56 pm

JO 14 wrote:
MrHairyLegs wrote: I've come to see my T-14 acceptances as worthless. I'd be paying full sticker at these schools. . . .

T-14 Arithmetic. You pay $150K (tuition) to earn $1.6M over the next ten years. After taxes you wind up netting a $125K a month to pay a $20K monthly debt. All this and you do not even have to be a superstar. Just do not drop too far below median (even then you might net $70K, leaving you $50K a year after debt).


Tuition will keep rising making it more like $170K for him. Cost of living will make his total when he graduates closer to $250K. He will not make 1.6M over the next ten years since that assumes he will stay in biglaw. He will probably be stealthed within 5 years at best. Next, he will try to find an in house job that barely pays $120K a year which in itself will be very hard. This is also assuming that he performs better than his other equally intelligent classmates and has prior work experience or a beaming personality. This also assumes that he goes to a school towards the top of the T14. Going to a T14 at sticker price is insanity and anyone who does so has no excuse especially since all it takes is simple arithmetic to figure this fact out.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Should I be proud of breaking T14/T10?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Feb 01, 2013 4:07 pm

pastapplicant wrote:
JO 14 wrote:
MrHairyLegs wrote: I've come to see my T-14 acceptances as worthless. I'd be paying full sticker at these schools. . . .

T-14 Arithmetic. You pay $150K (tuition) to earn $1.6M over the next ten years. After taxes you wind up netting a $125K a month to pay a $20K monthly debt. All this and you do not even have to be a superstar. Just do not drop too far below median (even then you might net $70K, leaving you $50K a year after debt).


Tuition will keep rising making it more like $170K for him. Cost of living will make his total when he graduates closer to $250K. He will not make 1.6M over the next ten years since that assumes he will stay in biglaw. He will probably be stealthed within 5 years at best. Next, he will try to find an in house job that barely pays $120K a year which in itself will be very hard. This is also assuming that he performs better than his other equally intelligent classmates and has prior work experience or a beaming personality. This also assumes that he goes to a school towards the top of the T14. Going to a T14 at sticker price is insanity and anyone who does so has no excuse especially since all it takes is simple arithmetic to figure this fact out.

Sure there is no guarantee that one will get Biglaw+Inhouse, but for anyone who does sticker price is a bargain, unless that person could have made a lot of money in a different career.

4 years of BigLaw and 6 years of In-house at 120K puts you at $1.5 million.

BTW whose alt are you?

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Re: Should I be proud of breaking T14/T10?

Postby pastapplicant » Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:05 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
pastapplicant wrote:
JO 14 wrote:
MrHairyLegs wrote: I've come to see my T-14 acceptances as worthless. I'd be paying full sticker at these schools. . . .

T-14 Arithmetic. You pay $150K (tuition) to earn $1.6M over the next ten years. After taxes you wind up netting a $125K a month to pay a $20K monthly debt. All this and you do not even have to be a superstar. Just do not drop too far below median (even then you might net $70K, leaving you $50K a year after debt).


Tuition will keep rising making it more like $170K for him. Cost of living will make his total when he graduates closer to $250K. He will not make 1.6M over the next ten years since that assumes he will stay in biglaw. He will probably be stealthed within 5 years at best. Next, he will try to find an in house job that barely pays $120K a year which in itself will be very hard. This is also assuming that he performs better than his other equally intelligent classmates and has prior work experience or a beaming personality. This also assumes that he goes to a school towards the top of the T14. Going to a T14 at sticker price is insanity and anyone who does so has no excuse especially since all it takes is simple arithmetic to figure this fact out.

Sure there is no guarantee that one will get Biglaw+Inhouse, but for anyone who does sticker price is a bargain, unless that person could have made a lot of money in a different career.

4 years of BigLaw and 6 years of In-house at 120K puts you at $1.5 million.

BTW whose alt are you?


I am saying that 4 years of biglaw is hard enough to get as it is. Finding an in hourse position that pays you 120K is not a route that anyone should be relying on. It is very hard to find that assuming you survive long enough in biglaw to be of any use to a corporation. Even if you managed to hit the jackpot and achieved 4 + 6, try calculating how much you would take home and how much you would pay off every month. Sticker price is not a bargain even for the those who get this. You would be better off finding another job that pays $50K without the law school debt.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Should I be proud of breaking T14/T10?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:16 pm

pastapplicant wrote:Even if you managed to hit the jackpot and achieved 4 + 6, try calculating how much you would take home and how much you would pay off every month. Sticker price is not a bargain even for the those who get this. You would be better off finding another job that pays $50K without the law school debt.

Perhaps we just have to agree to disagree here, but it's worth adding that life doesn't stop ten years out of law school.

Even if we only look at those ten years, you've got $1.5 million minus ~360K in loan payments. The dude making 50K, perhaps averaging 60K over the relevant 13 year period, only ends up at $780K. Taxes certainly take a bit out of the lawyer's advantage, but he's still ahead and the difference will be magnified over the next 20-30 years of their respective careers.

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Rahviveh
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Re: Should I be proud of breaking T14/T10?

Postby Rahviveh » Fri Feb 01, 2013 5:16 pm

pastapplicant wrote:
I am saying that 4 years of biglaw is hard enough to get as it is. Finding an in hourse position that pays you 120K is not a route that anyone should be relying on. It is very hard to find that assuming you survive long enough in biglaw to be of any use to a corporation. Even if you managed to hit the jackpot and achieved 4 + 6, try calculating how much you would take home and how much you would pay off every month. Sticker price is not a bargain even for the those who get this. You would be better off finding another job that pays $50K without the law school debt.


Are you an associate? I'd like to see the specific arithmetic you keep referencing, comparing the two situations

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JO 14
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Re: Should I be proud of breaking T14/T10?

Postby JO 14 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:16 pm

What is the definition of Big-Law? Is it based on your pay or the firm’s number of attorneys?

There are certainly a substantial number of firms with 50 (or so) attorneys paying $125K (thereabouts) to make your LS investment worthwhile. Whether that scenario equates to BL, has always been an unknown [to me]. Another way to ask, where does the range of BL end and Mid-Law begin?

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Re: Should I be proud of breaking T14/T10?

Postby suralin » Fri Feb 01, 2013 6:58 pm

pastapplicant wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:
pastapplicant wrote:
JO 14 wrote:T-14 Arithmetic. You pay $150K (tuition) to earn $1.6M over the next ten years. After taxes you wind up netting a $125K a month to pay a $20K monthly debt. All this and you do not even have to be a superstar. Just do not drop too far below median (even then you might net $70K, leaving you $50K a year after debt).


Tuition will keep rising making it more like $170K for him. Cost of living will make his total when he graduates closer to $250K. He will not make 1.6M over the next ten years since that assumes he will stay in biglaw. He will probably be stealthed within 5 years at best. Next, he will try to find an in house job that barely pays $120K a year which in itself will be very hard. This is also assuming that he performs better than his other equally intelligent classmates and has prior work experience or a beaming personality. This also assumes that he goes to a school towards the top of the T14. Going to a T14 at sticker price is insanity and anyone who does so has no excuse especially since all it takes is simple arithmetic to figure this fact out.

Sure there is no guarantee that one will get Biglaw+Inhouse, but for anyone who does sticker price is a bargain, unless that person could have made a lot of money in a different career.

4 years of BigLaw and 6 years of In-house at 120K puts you at $1.5 million.

BTW whose alt are you?


I am saying that 4 years of biglaw is hard enough to get as it is. Finding an in hourse position that pays you 120K is not a route that anyone should be relying on. It is very hard to find that assuming you survive long enough in biglaw to be of any use to a corporation. Even if you managed to hit the jackpot and achieved 4 + 6, try calculating how much you would take home and how much you would pay off every month. Sticker price is not a bargain even for the those who get this. You would be better off finding another job that pays $50K without the law school debt.


Dude, there have been multiple cost-benefit analyses done on this (e.g., on TLS, see those of Rayiner and Dingbat), and the consensus, by and large, is that the lifetime expected earnings of the average person at a T14 is substantially higher than that for the average person with a liberal arts degree, even erring conservatively.

Key points: lifetime, expected, average, T14, and liberal arts degree (i.e., opportunity costs).

Caution is definitely warranted, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

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Re: Should I be proud of breaking T14/T10?

Postby pastapplicant » Fri Feb 01, 2013 7:25 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
pastapplicant wrote:
I am saying that 4 years of biglaw is hard enough to get as it is. Finding an in hourse position that pays you 120K is not a route that anyone should be relying on. It is very hard to find that assuming you survive long enough in biglaw to be of any use to a corporation. Even if you managed to hit the jackpot and achieved 4 + 6, try calculating how much you would take home and how much you would pay off every month. Sticker price is not a bargain even for the those who get this. You would be better off finding another job that pays $50K without the law school debt.


Are you an associate? I'd like to see the specific arithmetic you keep referencing, comparing the two situations


No I am not an associate, but I have been around a lot of associates. Since anecdotal evidence is not taken well on TLS just consider this scenario and see for yourself. First, let's establish that the BEST CASE SCENARIO for many law students at T14 is getting biglaw for 3 years (which is the normal time for most). Don't forget to consider that a significant number of students will strike out. We need to remember that if you strike out with $250K of debt, you are basically screwed for a good portion of life. Now, let's consider the other scenario to see if this risk is justified.

I am going to assume NYC biglaw. This is what year one is going to look like with $250K debt. (Remember, Stafford loans are unsubsidized now).
Around 8K take home after tax - at least 3K for debt = 5K left for everything else - 2K for apartment/utilities (roughly) = 3K left. Considering the cost of living of NY/NJ, this is pathetic. Consider the additional risk that most biglaw associates do not find in house jobs afterwards and you still have to find some way to keep up the debt payments after you get laid off.

I can see how liberal arts degrees may be worse in some cases. All I am saying is that I hope people don't go to school at sticker price without considering how crappy they are going to be living for a long time.

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Re: Should I be proud of breaking T14/T10?

Postby law2015 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 8:20 pm

pastapplicant wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:
pastapplicant wrote:
I am saying that 4 years of biglaw is hard enough to get as it is. Finding an in hourse position that pays you 120K is not a route that anyone should be relying on. It is very hard to find that assuming you survive long enough in biglaw to be of any use to a corporation. Even if you managed to hit the jackpot and achieved 4 + 6, try calculating how much you would take home and how much you would pay off every month. Sticker price is not a bargain even for the those who get this. You would be better off finding another job that pays $50K without the law school debt.


Are you an associate? I'd like to see the specific arithmetic you keep referencing, comparing the two situations


No I am not an associate, but I have been around a lot of associates. Since anecdotal evidence is not taken well on TLS just consider this scenario and see for yourself. First, let's establish that the BEST CASE SCENARIO for many law students at T14 is getting biglaw for 3 years (which is the normal time for most). Don't forget to consider that a significant number of students will strike out. We need to remember that if you strike out with $250K of debt, you are basically screwed for a good portion of life. Now, let's consider the other scenario to see if this risk is justified.

I am going to assume NYC biglaw. This is what year one is going to look like with $250K debt. (Remember, Stafford loans are unsubsidized now).
Around 8K take home after tax - at least 3K for debt = 5K left for everything else - 2K for apartment/utilities (roughly) = 3K left. Considering the cost of living of NY/NJ, this is pathetic. Consider the additional risk that most biglaw associates do not find in house jobs afterwards and you still have to find some way to keep up the debt payments after you get laid off.

I can see how liberal arts degrees may be worse in some cases. All I am saying is that I hope people don't go to school at sticker price without considering how crappy they are going to be living for a long time.


You are an idiot my friend!

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Re: Should I be proud of breaking T14/T10?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:15 pm

pastapplicant wrote:
ChampagnePapi wrote:
pastapplicant wrote:
I am saying that 4 years of biglaw is hard enough to get as it is. Finding an in hourse position that pays you 120K is not a route that anyone should be relying on. It is very hard to find that assuming you survive long enough in biglaw to be of any use to a corporation. Even if you managed to hit the jackpot and achieved 4 + 6, try calculating how much you would take home and how much you would pay off every month. Sticker price is not a bargain even for the those who get this. You would be better off finding another job that pays $50K without the law school debt.


Are you an associate? I'd like to see the specific arithmetic you keep referencing, comparing the two situations


No I am not an associate, but I have been around a lot of associates. Since anecdotal evidence is not taken well on TLS just consider this scenario and see for yourself. First, let's establish that the BEST CASE SCENARIO for many law students at T14 is getting biglaw for 3 years (which is the normal time for most). Don't forget to consider that a significant number of students will strike out. We need to remember that if you strike out with $250K of debt, you are basically screwed for a good portion of life. Now, let's consider the other scenario to see if this risk is justified.

I am going to assume NYC biglaw. This is what year one is going to look like with $250K debt. (Remember, Stafford loans are unsubsidized now).
Around 8K take home after tax - at least 3K for debt = 5K left for everything else - 2K for apartment/utilities (roughly) = 3K left. Considering the cost of living of NY/NJ, this is pathetic. Consider the additional risk that most biglaw associates do not find in house jobs afterwards and you still have to find some way to keep up the debt payments after you get laid off.

I can see how liberal arts degrees may be worse in some cases. All I am saying is that I hope people don't go to school at sticker price without considering how crappy they are going to be living for a long time.

Look, there are good and bad reasons to go to law school, but you're getting it pretty twisted if you think it's "pathetic" to have "only" $3,000 a month in discretionary income.

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Re: Should I be proud of breaking T14/T10?

Postby pastapplicant » Fri Feb 01, 2013 10:59 pm

Making $36K in discretionary income in NY is not that high. Remember, the 36K has to take care of everything left after rent and debt payments. This is considering that my calculations underestimated debt payments. We will have utilities, health insurance, dental insurance, food, commute, recreation, hair cuts, household items, and many more other things to consider (NY cost of living!). Not to mention that one's health after years of biglaw (if you are lucky enough to last that long) will be affected as well. If you like living paycheck to paycheck and having zero savings when you hit your 30s I guess the risk is worth it. It would be far better to live the same lifestyle without the debt by taking an entry level job somewhere. Yes you may earn more over the long run, but you are screwing over a good chunk of your younger years to do so (especially if you are planning on getting married and having kids).

I think you guys keep forgetting that my main point is that big law salary is the only reason one would survive 240K debt payments and that most people are pushed out around year 3 without an in house position to go to. How are you going to keep paying off that debt and live fine if you have no income to do so? Why would you take such a huge gamble by paying sticker? Risk screwing your life for a chance to live paycheck to paycheck grinding it out in biglaw only to get fired?
I think people are a bit sensitive because after all this site is full of law students and there are probably some who are paying sticker right now, but I am only trying to give some perspective to 0Ls who are about to make a huge mistake. People vastly underestimate how much a quarter million dollars in law school debt can ruin you.

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Re: Should I be proud of breaking T14/T10?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:28 pm

pastapplicant wrote:Making $36K in discretionary income in NY is not that high. Remember, the 36K has to take care of everything left after rent and debt payments. This is considering that my calculations underestimated debt payments. We will have utilities, health insurance, dental insurance, food, commute, recreation, hair cuts, household items, and many more other things to consider (NY cost of living!). Not to mention that one's health after years of biglaw (if you are lucky enough to last that long) will be affected as well. If you like living paycheck to paycheck and having zero savings when you hit your 30s I guess the risk is worth it. It would be far better to live the same lifestyle without the debt by taking an entry level job somewhere. Yes you may earn more over the long run, but you are screwing over a good chunk of your younger years to do so (especially if you are planning on getting married and having kids).

I think you guys keep forgetting that my main point is that big law salary is the only reason one would survive 240K debt payments and that most people are pushed out around year 3 without an in house position to go to. How are you going to keep paying off that debt and live fine if you have no income to do so? Why would you take such a huge gamble by paying sticker? Risk screwing your life for a chance to live paycheck to paycheck grinding it out in biglaw only to get fired?
I think people are a bit sensitive because after all this site is full of law students and there are probably some who are paying sticker right now, but I am only trying to give some perspective to 0Ls who are about to make a huge mistake. People vastly underestimate how much a quarter million dollars in law school debt can ruin you.

I've lived in NYC on less than $36,000 a year GROSS income. Wouldn't want to do it forever, but it was plenty doable and I had plenty of fun. I agree that there are many risks to school, but I think that once you start complaining about the money that you make as a biglaw associate you start to lose credibility. You aren't going to get rich as an NYC biglaw associate, though, and if that's your point then I agree. It is pretty ridiculous to start acting like you can't afford to have a nice lifestyle, though, to the extent you have time.

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Re: Should I be proud of breaking T14/T10?

Postby JO 14 » Fri Feb 01, 2013 11:55 pm

pastapplicant wrote:Risk screwing your life for a chance to live paycheck to paycheck grinding it out in biglaw only to get fired?

You have made a number of excellent points, changing many minds here on TLS. Lawyering was just a bubble. My guess is that they will likely have to start closing down courtrooms due to the lack of attorneys. The Mercedes dealers have not seen a lawyer enter their showroom in years. Lawyers are undoubtedly the lifeblood of second hand clothing stores. Once upon a time the Yellow Pages depended on lawyers to advertise, but today you rarely see an ad for a law firm. This profession has gone the way of radio and the typewriter. It is a dead end vocation.

They really need to design a sarcasm font. Seriously.

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Re: Should I be proud of breaking T14/T10?

Postby pastapplicant » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:00 am

dixiecupdrinking wrote:
pastapplicant wrote:Making $36K in discretionary income in NY is not that high. Remember, the 36K has to take care of everything left after rent and debt payments. This is considering that my calculations underestimated debt payments. We will have utilities, health insurance, dental insurance, food, commute, recreation, hair cuts, household items, and many more other things to consider (NY cost of living!). Not to mention that one's health after years of biglaw (if you are lucky enough to last that long) will be affected as well. If you like living paycheck to paycheck and having zero savings when you hit your 30s I guess the risk is worth it. It would be far better to live the same lifestyle without the debt by taking an entry level job somewhere. Yes you may earn more over the long run, but you are screwing over a good chunk of your younger years to do so (especially if you are planning on getting married and having kids).

I think you guys keep forgetting that my main point is that big law salary is the only reason one would survive 240K debt payments and that most people are pushed out around year 3 without an in house position to go to. How are you going to keep paying off that debt and live fine if you have no income to do so? Why would you take such a huge gamble by paying sticker? Risk screwing your life for a chance to live paycheck to paycheck grinding it out in biglaw only to get fired?
I think people are a bit sensitive because after all this site is full of law students and there are probably some who are paying sticker right now, but I am only trying to give some perspective to 0Ls who are about to make a huge mistake. People vastly underestimate how much a quarter million dollars in law school debt can ruin you.

I've lived in NYC on less than $36,000 a year GROSS income. Wouldn't want to do it forever, but it was plenty doable and I had plenty of fun. I agree that there are many risks to school, but I think that once you start complaining about the money that you make as a biglaw associate you start to lose credibility. You aren't going to get rich as an NYC biglaw associate, though, and if that's your point then I agree. It is pretty ridiculous to start acting like you can't afford to have a nice lifestyle, though, to the extent you have time.


I am not complaining about the amount of money biglaw pays. How am I losing credibility? I am sure making 160K would be great ONLY IF you didn't have $240K in debt. I am mainly arguing about the logic behind risking a quarter million dollars to pursue a 50/50 chance to get a short career in biglaw that will not cover enough to give you a solid financial position. Forget getting rich, you will be living paycheck to paycheck in the BEST CASE SCENARIO.

I am sorry but even if you "had plenty of fun" living off 36K in NYC (which I have a hard time believing since rent here alone would be 1K at best exluding utilities and cable if you are rooming with someone or maybe you lived on the bare bare essentials which in itself would further prove my point), why would you go through 3 years of law school and grind away at a firm to live off 36K? Where is the logic in that? You can't seriously tell me that living off that would be reasonable heading into your 30s after the investment made. There is a huge difference in "having fun" as a young adult, and realizing in your 30s that you have zero savings and still have student debt.

pastapplicant
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Re: Should I be proud of breaking T14/T10?

Postby pastapplicant » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:04 am

JO 14 wrote:
pastapplicant wrote:Risk screwing your life for a chance to live paycheck to paycheck grinding it out in biglaw only to get fired?

You have made a number of excellent points, changing many minds here on TLS. Lawyering was just a bubble. My guess is that they will likely have to start closing down courtrooms due to the lack of attorneys. The Mercedes dealers have not seen a lawyer enter their showroom in years. Lawyers are undoubtedly the lifeblood of second hand clothing stores. Once upon a time the Yellow Pages depended on lawyers to advertise, but today you rarely see an ad for a law firm. This profession has gone the way of radio and the typewriter. It is a dead end vocation.

They really need to design a sarcasm font. Seriously.


LOL i told you current students who actually are taking out sticker price in loans are sensitive. If you think I am full of it, why don't you show me where I am wrong. I am not trying to change minds, but I am trying to have a reasonable discussion. I guess TLS is still full of neurotic people who have trouble swallowing the truth when it makes them realize they made a huge mistake.

I don't understand what your paragraph is trying to say. I never said being an attorney is anything bad nor did I mention anything about the state of the legal market. I am merely trying to understand how anyone can actually believe that investing a quarter of a million dollars in law school can be a good idea. Do you understand how big that amount of money is? If I thought becoming a lawyer was such a bad idea, then why would I be in law school right now? The only difference between you and me is that I made sure I went to a school that ensured that I won't be crushed by debt.
Last edited by pastapplicant on Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:09 am, edited 1 time in total.

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JO 14
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Re: Should I be proud of breaking T14/T10?

Postby JO 14 » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:07 am

To keep believing what you are saying. . .whatever you do, do not watch Suits or Good Wife, silly Hollywood people make it seem like attorneys live in mansions, have cool cars, go on exotic vacations, dine at 4 star restaurants, join country clubs, have platinum credit cards . . .

Try and start up a business with only $250K. Said simplistically, go get a retail job or else man up.

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bowser
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Re: Should I be proud of breaking T14/T10?

Postby bowser » Sat Feb 02, 2013 12:20 am

pastapplicant wrote: Do you understand how big that amount of money is? If I thought becoming a lawyer was such a bad idea, then why would I be in law school right now? The only difference between you and me is that I made sure I went to a school that ensured that I won't be crushed by debt.


All of your arguments against law school school apply to people who go to school for free, too. Are you intent on doing something other than Biglaw? Because if you want Biglaw, debt or not, you've basically said you're going to get fired in three years.




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