Cardozo vs. U of Toronto for NYC (big)law Forum

[NDJ]

been reading various things and %ages that might suggest either one - wondering what you guys think (think I know what the answer will be though..)

[somewhatwayward]

been reading various things and %ages that might suggest either one - wondering what you guys think (think I know what the answer will be though..)

Is that answer neither? Because that is TCR here.....another correct response is retake for a school that actually gives you a double digit shot at NYC big law

[Rahviveh]

been reading various things and %ages that might suggest either one - wondering what you guys think (think I know what the answer will be though..)

Is that answer neither? Because that is TCR here.....another correct response is retake for a school that actually gives you a double digit shot at NYC big law

OP has a 174. Not sure what's going through that crazy head of his....

[shifty_eyed]

with a 3.55 / 174 you are wasting your time with these two schools. T14 maybe even EDUVA.

Are you a URM?

3.55/174 does not even need to ED UVA... (S)he can get money from lower T14 schools and has a GREAT shot at Columbia/NYU

[NDJ]

Haha-was just wondering!! (Didnt know anyone would remember me from other threads..) I am much more debt adverse than what seems like most people on here, and not 100% committed to big law...out of my applications I wanted to have one or two very affordable options to at least eventually weigh against the likely scenario of T14 w/o significant $. Cardozo waived my fee so nothing to lose, was curious whether u of t was worth looking into (im also canadian..my fam lives in Toronto but am more or less committed to staying in NYC long term, where I currently live)

On another note is the general debate of being big fish vs little fish. There is a % at both of these schools that gets ny big firm work (seems like SOMEwhere between 5-20% for both..) I don't think it's outrageous to assume that the people who outrank a school are likely to be in that top tier of students.. And those people save at least 100k over the Columbia grads that get the SAME jobs..it happens every year..!! Just sayin..

And no I'm not urm..

[teachmehowtoraji]

Haha-was just wondering!! (Didnt know anyone would remember me from other threads..) I am much more debt adverse than what seems like most people on here, and not 100% committed to big law...out of my applications I wanted to have one or two very affordable options to at least eventually weigh against the likely scenario of T14 w/o significant $. Cardozo waived my fee so nothing to lose, was curious whether u of t was worth looking into (im also canadian..my fam lives in Toronto but am more or less committed to staying in NYC long term, where I currently live)

On another note is the general debate of being big fish vs little fish. There is a % at both of these schools that gets ny big firm work (seems like SOMEwhere between 5-20% for both..) I don't think it's outrageous to assume that the people who outrank a school are likely to be in that top tier of students.. And those people save at least 100k over the Columbia grads that get the SAME jobs..it happens every year..!! Just sayin..

And no I'm not urm..

At least shoot for Fordham $$$ instead of Dozo, I got 38k/yr at Dozo and 10k/yr at Fordham with only a 164...you can def pull big money at schools much better than Dozo.

[Yukos]

Haha-was just wondering!! (Didnt know anyone would remember me from other threads..) I am much more debt adverse than what seems like most people on here, and not 100% committed to big law...out of my applications I wanted to have one or two very affordable options to at least eventually weigh against the likely scenario of T14 w/o significant $. Cardozo waived my fee so nothing to lose, was curious whether u of t was worth looking into (im also canadian..my fam lives in Toronto but am more or less committed to staying in NYC long term, where I currently live)

On another note is the general debate of being big fish vs little fish. There is a % at both of these schools that gets ny big firm work (seems like SOMEwhere between 5-20% for both..) I don't think it's outrageous to assume that the people who outrank a school are likely to be in that top tier of students.. And those people save at least 100k over the Columbia grads that get the SAME jobs..it happens every year..!! Just sayin..

And no I'm not urm..

If you don't like debt you should focus on getting into Columbia/NYU or Cornell with money. It might be counter-intuitive but think about it: Going to Dozo with a full-ride, you're still paying huge CoL expenses living in New York, so you're piling on debt. On the other hand, you have a slim chance to pay the debt back since biglaw prospects out of Dozo are so bad. Yes you will get more debt out of Columbia/NYU/Cornell, but your chances of actually servicing that debt will be much higher. Moral of the story: don't go to Dozo.

Re whether you getting a full-ride to a school implies you'll be better than everyone there: people on TLS generally say grades are to some extent arbitrary and there's plenty of people on scholarship who do badly. If you don't like a schools job prospects for people at median, don't go because that's the most likely place in the class you'll end up.

[romothesavior]

Going to either of these schools with a 174 would be insane. T1 with scholly if youre debt averse, or better yet, T14 and pay for it. Your odds of a job from dozo are poor, and your biglaw odds would be terrible.

Also your assumption that you'll kill it in law school because of your 174 is mistaken.

[romothesavior]

Yale? He's got a 3.55.

[romothesavior]

You being serious? My advice is probably a little out of date since it has been a few years since I went through it, but I've got to think that the odds of getting into Yale with that GPA are not very good.

[ndirish2010]

OP, enjoy NYU or Cornell w/$$

[paratactical]

On another note is the general debate of being big fish vs little fish. There is a % at both of these schools that gets ny big firm work (seems like SOMEwhere between 5-20% for both..) I don't think it's outrageous to assume that the people who outrank a school are likely to be in that top tier of students.. And those people save at least 100k over the Columbia grads that get the SAME jobs..it happens every year..!! Just sayin..

Two notes:

1) The idea that you can feel secure that you'll be in the top of your class because you go to a shitty school is not an intelligent thing to bet on. Look around TLS at threads about grades and you'll see why quickly.

2) The people who "save" money over the CLS grad do not get the "SAME" jobs. Even the very very very rare Carbozo grad who gets into a prestigious biglaw firm in NYC does not have the same job as a CLS grad working at the firm. If you think TLS is prestige obsessed, you should see biglaw war rooms.

[NDJ]

If you don't like debt you should focus on getting into Columbia/NYU or Cornell with money. It might be counter-intuitive but think about it: Going to Dozo with a full-ride, you're still paying huge CoL expenses living in New York, so you're piling on debt. On the other hand, you have a slim chance to pay the debt back since biglaw prospects out of Dozo are so bad. Yes you will get more debt out of Columbia/NYU/Cornell, but your chances of actually servicing that debt will be much higher. Moral of the story: don't go to Dozo.

Re whether you getting a full-ride to a school implies you'll be better than everyone there: people on TLS generally say grades are to some extent arbitrary and there's plenty of people on scholarship who do badly. If you don't like a schools job prospects for people at median, don't go because that's the most likely place in the class you'll end up.

Fair enough. (Re: CoL in nyc - I actually have a nice setup and pay very little..got lucky. plus dozo seems to give 10k stipends sometimes on top of full ride..) I definitely see all of your points - I guess I didn't think grades were as much of a crap shoot as that - but at CLS/NYU there's also the added risk of being at the bottom ___% of the class (50? 20?) and not being able to get a biglaw gig, and being stuck with debt...

I may also save up money for another year, apply earlier, and possibly even try to retake higher if I have time to study - for more chance at CCN $...

Still contemplating whether U of T is worth an app (will cost me $300 what with the price for olsas, the canadian version of lsac), since failing nyc job options there are plenty of nice jobs in TO..

Yale? He's got a 3.55.

You're telling me that you cant see Yale taking a music major who writes a compelling essay, regardless of the GPA?

To be clear, I wasnt saying he was a lock or anything, no one is a lock for Yale, I was more or less illustrating that for him, Yale is a more logical outcome than dozo.

Re: Yale - (I thought I was on the wrong page when I saw "Yale" in this thread.. ) if there's even a 10-20% shot of getting in with my numbers I would love to apply (same goes for H/S), but my understanding thus far has been it would be a waste of $300.. as far as the music thing, I do have a rather interesting musical background, including prizes in a few national/international competitions (1st prize out of 400,000 people in a Canadian student competition, for example..) and a full ride to Berklee..I have no idea if this kind of thing has any impact whatsoever on application to Yale/any other school, but maybe you guys could advise..?

Seriously, if can string three pages together about how music and law go hand in hand, Yale would probably eat that up.

I hope to figure that out myself sometime over the next 40 years..

[ajax]

As someone who was considering NYC area last year, neither option is good for Biglaw.

Hate to be that guy, but retake.

Edit: Didn't realize you have a 174. Apply t14 and go to the one that offers you most $.

[bbsg]

If you don't like debt you should focus on getting into Columbia/NYU or Cornell with money. It might be counter-intuitive but think about it: Going to Dozo with a full-ride, you're still paying huge CoL expenses living in New York, so you're piling on debt. On the other hand, you have a slim chance to pay the debt back since biglaw prospects out of Dozo are so bad. Yes you will get more debt out of Columbia/NYU/Cornell, but your chances of actually servicing that debt will be much higher. Moral of the story: don't go to Dozo.

Re whether you getting a full-ride to a school implies you'll be better than everyone there: people on TLS generally say grades are to some extent arbitrary and there's plenty of people on scholarship who do badly. If you don't like a schools job prospects for people at median, don't go because that's the most likely place in the class you'll end up.

Fair enough. (Re: CoL in nyc - I actually have a nice setup and pay very little..got lucky. plus dozo seems to give 10k stipends sometimes on top of full ride..) I definitely see all of your points - I guess I didn't think grades were as much of a crap shoot as that - but at CLS/NYU there's also the added risk of being at the bottom ___% of the class (50? 20?) and not being able to get a biglaw gig, and being stuck with debt...

I may also save up money for another year, apply earlier, and possibly even try to retake higher if I have time to study - for more chance at CCN $...

Still contemplating whether U of T is worth an app (will cost me $300 what with the price for olsas, the canadian version of lsac), since failing nyc job options there are plenty of nice jobs in TO..

Yale? He's got a 3.55.

You're telling me that you cant see Yale taking a music major who writes a compelling essay, regardless of the GPA?

To be clear, I wasnt saying he was a lock or anything, no one is a lock for Yale, I was more or less illustrating that for him, Yale is a more logical outcome than dozo.

Re: Yale - (I thought I was on the wrong page when I saw "Yale" in this thread.. ) if there's even a 10-20% shot of getting in with my numbers I would love to apply (same goes for H/S), but my understanding thus far has been it would be a waste of $300.. as far as the music thing, I do have a rather interesting musical background, including prizes in a few national/international competitions (1st prize out of 400,000 people in a Canadian student competition, for example..) and a full ride to Berklee..I have no idea if this kind of thing has any impact whatsoever on application to Yale/any other school, but maybe you guys could advise..?

Seriously, if can string three pages together about how music and law go hand in hand, Yale would probably eat that up.

I hope to figure that out myself sometime over the next 40 years..

Toronto gets some placement in NYC. The vast majority of Torontonians don't -want- to go to NYC, so the lower percentage might even be a bit misleading in terms of actual probabilities.

UofT takes your best three years, though. If you were consistently a 3.5 (so your best three years are also 3.5), Toronto is going to be a bit of a reach. Remember too that the OLSAS scale deflates your grades -- A's become 3.9, and A+'s become 4.33. I'm a 3.89 on the LSAC scale and a 3.78 on the OLSAS scale. At UofT they're looking for around 3.8 on OLSAS as a median (which is, typically, closer to a 3.85-3.9 on LSAC).

That makes UofT a 3.85/167 median school, at least by their published statistics.

This means two things for people wanting to go into NYC biglaw and are considering UofT:
-They have a GPA that makes them more than competitive for NYU/Columbia (assuming they don't have one weird year or past college credits weighing down their cGPA, which UofT disregards)
-They require a (relatively) low LSAT -- it's a reverse splitter school, basically.

You're on the other side of this. Schools in Canada don't care -as much- about medians so I'm not sure if the high LSAT will necessarily make up for the relatively low GPA. I wouldn't consider UofT a lock for you.

That said, coming out of UofT you'd have your choice of biglaw in Canada. It pays worse (one year of articling around 50k and then an associate salary around 100k), but law school in Canada has been much more inexpensive (some top schools have 10-15k tuition). However, UofT is becoming less and less expensive and tuition is now nearing 30k. A T14 with $ might come across as costing -less- and giving you a better shot of a job in NYC...Especially since UofT enjoys some monopoly as the far-and-away most competitive law school in Canada and thus gives no merit money and is stingy, relative to the T14, on need-based aid. It just doesn't have the same endowment with which to work. My friend is at HLS right now and her tuition there is less than what she would have been paying at UofT Law (she was accepted to both).

The problem then is that the lower T14 isn't going to guarantee you a job in NYC. The Toronto degree will almost guarantee you a job in Toronto. You can't take that T14 to Canada, either, as you need to go through a year of exams before you can even write the bar there.

tl;dr -- I think Toronto is squeezing itself out of being a viable option for Americans because its raising tuition too rapidly. That said, sometimes it makes more sense than the US (ie, you have a 3.9 degree GPA but a 3.3 cumulative, or you wrote the LSAT three times and got 164 each time with a decent GPA).

Edit - Anecdotal point about UofT being more difficult to get into than Americans realize -- I got into NYU and Berkeley within 2 weeks of submitting, and I've been sitting at "under review" at Toronto for 3 months. Toronto undergrad, local ties, etc. 175 LSAT. I'm pretty confident I'll get in eventually, though.

Osgoode Hall also places some people in New York and also places fantastically in Toronto biglaw, OP. UofToronto and Osgoode are the only schools in Canada that has NYC biglaw OCI. You might want to look into Osgoode too, then. Your numbers would basically make you a lock. If you're set on NYC, though, a T14 with $ > Toronto/Osgoode. But at least Toronto/Osgoode gives you an alternate route, assuming you don't mind Canada, if NYC falls through.

Edit 2 - The music thing would indeed have some impact at Yale and Berkeley and maybe Stanford, but likely not enough to compensate for a sub 3.7 GPA.

[moonman157]

On another note is the general debate of being big fish vs little fish. There is a % at both of these schools that gets ny big firm work (seems like SOMEwhere between 5-20% for both..) I don't think it's outrageous to assume that the people who outrank a school are likely to be in that top tier of students.. And those people save at least 100k over the Columbia grads that get the SAME jobs..it happens every year..!! Just sayin..

Two notes:

1) The idea that you can feel secure that you'll be in the top of your class because you go to a shitty school is not an intelligent thing to bet on. Look around TLS at threads about grades and you'll see why quickly.

2) The people who "save" money over the CLS grad do not get the "SAME" jobs. Even the very very very rare Carbozo grad who gets into a prestigious biglaw firm in NYC does not have the same job as a CLS grad working at the firm. If you think TLS is prestige obsessed, you should see biglaw war rooms.

Can you expand on this part?

[paratactical]

.

[nba101790]

This is hardly limited to the legal field in New York...

[NDJ]

Lots of great info here - thanks a lot guys. Re: my GPA, I have a handful of awful marks dragging it down, all close together, so taking the best 3 years would likely bring me up a lot, though I haven't done the calculations. That being said, I think I will be sitting out the Canadian schools for this cycle. My idea was for schools like Cardozo and Canadian schools to be very affordable backup plans, if T14 w/ $ doesn't work out. This thread has convinced me that that is probably not the best idea, and also that waiting another year would likely be preferable to going to Cardozo w/ full ride + stipend, should that end up being the only option available for this year for whatever reason.

The main question this thread has left me with is whether or not my background would render application fees to any of Y/S/H(/Berkeley?) an economically reasonable expense. Total $ I've spent on LSAT books/fees + app fees since I decided to apply for law school 3 months ago has luckily been only just under/over $1000, so I think I've escaped pretty cheaply so far, but still I wouldn't want to throw any money out the window.

but anyway my guess is that it will be hard to get answers for that here what with the title..

[Yukos]

question this thread has left me with is whether or not my background would render application fees to any of Y/S/H(/Berkeley?) an economically reasonable expense. Total $ I've spent on LSAT books/fees + app fees since I decided to apply for law school 3 months ago has luckily been only just under/over $1000, so I think I've escaped pretty cheaply so far, but still I wouldn't want to throw any money out the window.

You have almost no shot at the four: http://myLSN.info/zrft3c

But I would probably throw an app at Harvard anyway cause it's Harvard. If you like NorCal, Berkeley is a great school and can get you back to New York, but again your chances are pretty slim.

You will get $, and probably $$$ from lower T14 and you'll get into a couple of CCN so I wouldn't worry too much. Most applicants would die to be in your shoes.

[NDJ]

thanks man. if i do go for harvard, should i write some kind of addendum addressing the GPA? i just feel like it will be the elephant in the room otherwise..
i may start another thread on this just to get some more opinions..

[Yukos]

thanks man. if i do go for harvard, should i write some kind of addendum addressing the GPA? i just feel like it will be the elephant in the room otherwise..
i may start another thread on this just to get some more opinions..

Addendums are only useful if your bad grades were during a discrete period of time (e.g. sophomore year) and you have a very legitimate excuse. Some strong explanations I've seen on TLS are battling cancer, sister committed suicide and untreated bi-polar disorder. If it's something like "I didn't adjust well to college" or "I'm bad at math and took two calc classes" then an addendum would just annoy the adcomm. Don't worry about it too much though, you should have some great options regardless.

[NDJ]

thanks bud - 'preciate the help!