Stanford vs. Duke w/ Full Tuition

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bnmillie13
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Stanford vs. Duke w/ Full Tuition

Postby bnmillie13 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:18 am

First time posting on here, and was looking for some input. I've been admitted to Duke, was awarded the Mordecai Scholarship covering full tuition, and had my heart set on heading to Durham for school, but just got the amazing news that I got into Stanford Law. My plan is to pursue my interest in intellectual property, more related to entertainment law, in NYC, and I know that Duke could get me there. But would it be crazy to turn down the opportunity to attend Stanford, just because I'm a little debt adverse?

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Tom Joad
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Re: Stanford vs. Duke w/ Full Tuition

Postby Tom Joad » Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:28 am

Figuring out what type of need based aid Stanford will give you will help you make your decision.

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ndirish2010
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Re: Stanford vs. Duke w/ Full Tuition

Postby ndirish2010 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:31 am

Assuming Stanford is sticker, and considering you just want NYC biglaw essentially, I would go with Duke. It would change obviously if Stanford came through with some $$, and I don't think you can really make a wrong decision here. If you were looking for clerkship/academia placement then Stanford would win out.

Congrats!

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bernaldiaz
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Re: Stanford vs. Duke w/ Full Tuition

Postby bernaldiaz » Mon Jan 21, 2013 2:31 am

To echo what Joad said, there's a really strong chance that you won't be paying sticker at Stanford. However, if you are in IP (generally thought to be easier to gain employment with the proper background) and don't feel the need to validate yourself with the extra cachet that Stanford would provide, I think the mordecai would be a great option. Congrats!

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cahwc12
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Re: Stanford vs. Duke w/ Full Tuition

Postby cahwc12 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 9:50 am

bernaldiaz wrote:To echo what Joad said, there's a really strong chance that you won't be paying sticker at Stanford. However, if you are in IP (generally thought to be easier to gain employment with the proper background) and don't feel the need to validate yourself with the extra cachet that Stanford would provide, I think the mordecai would be a great option. Congrats!


It's quite a touch decision, but I think this is the voice of reason.

Stanford is the best school to spend three years of your life getting a JD at in my opinion, but at the same time, Duke for free probably sets you up with the same outcome in the end, but without $300k in burdensome loans to stress you out for the next 10 years even if you are living the dream.

nebula666
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Re: Stanford vs. Duke w/ Full Tuition

Postby nebula666 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:03 am

I don't think you can go wrong here. Personally I'd lean towards Duke because no tuition at a T-14 is pretty incredible.

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beachbum
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Re: Stanford vs. Duke w/ Full Tuition

Postby beachbum » Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:22 am

If you're IP-eligible, then Duke and it isn't even close.

curious66
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Re: Stanford vs. Duke w/ Full Tuition

Postby curious66 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:42 am

bnmillie13 wrote:First time posting on here, and was looking for some input. I've been admitted to Duke, was awarded the Mordecai Scholarship covering full tuition, and had my heart set on heading to Durham for school, but just got the amazing news that I got into Stanford Law. My plan is to pursue my interest in intellectual property, more related to entertainment law, in NYC, and I know that Duke could get me there. But would it be crazy to turn down the opportunity to attend Stanford, just because I'm a little debt adverse?



Duke. It aligns with your interest long term and nothing beats free. Congratulations!!

bnmillie13
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Re: Stanford vs. Duke w/ Full Tuition

Postby bnmillie13 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:02 am

Thanks so much everyone, I really appreciate the voices of reason :] While I will definitely wait to see what kind of aid I may be getting from Stanford, I'm starting to think that Duke is going to win out... a T14 education for free that can get me where I want to go is definitely huge.

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kwais
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Re: Stanford vs. Duke w/ Full Tuition

Postby kwais » Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:12 am

OP, congratulations. However, I am a little confused about the advice in this thread. If the choice was Stanford v. Duke, costs equal, everyone would say Stanford because the employment outcomes (biglaw, not just academia/clerkships) are far better. Yet, because Duke is free, everyone seems to be implying that the Duke will get you wherever you want to go. The cost of Duke does not change the fact that once you are there, your chance of doing IP stuff in NYC is still only about 50-60% (OP has not said that they are IP secure, we are talking about entertainment here).
So, my point, choose Duke for monetary reasons if you wish, but do not conflate money with prospects the way much of this thread has.

jstr00az
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Re: Stanford vs. Duke w/ Full Tuition

Postby jstr00az » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:16 pm

bnmillie13 wrote:First time posting on here, and was looking for some input. I've been admitted to Duke, was awarded the Mordecai Scholarship covering full tuition, and had my heart set on heading to Durham for school, but just got the amazing news that I got into Stanford Law. My plan is to pursue my interest in intellectual property, more related to entertainment law, in NYC, and I know that Duke could get me there. But would it be crazy to turn down the opportunity to attend Stanford, just because I'm a little debt adverse?


Duke. The difference between Stanford and Duke is not soooooo great that it's worth $200,000. And you're not "a little" debt adverse. That's a huge amount of debt. Having a Duke degree and negligible debt will allow you to do a lot more things. Right now it's nice to imagine yourself in IP litigation. I would be surprised if you actually know what that means. I wanted to do IP litigation when I started, but found out I didn't like it. Having virtually no debt set me up to do what I'm doing now and I'm grateful for that.

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cahwc12
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Re: Stanford vs. Duke w/ Full Tuition

Postby cahwc12 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:20 pm

jstr00az wrote:
bnmillie13 wrote:First time posting on here, and was looking for some input. I've been admitted to Duke, was awarded the Mordecai Scholarship covering full tuition, and had my heart set on heading to Durham for school, but just got the amazing news that I got into Stanford Law. My plan is to pursue my interest in intellectual property, more related to entertainment law, in NYC, and I know that Duke could get me there. But would it be crazy to turn down the opportunity to attend Stanford, just because I'm a little debt adverse?


Duke. The difference between Stanford and Duke is not soooooo great that it's worth $200,000. And you're not "a little" debt adverse. That's a huge amount of debt. Having a Duke degree and negligible debt will allow you to do a lot more things. Right now it's nice to imagine yourself in IP litigation. I would be surprised if you actually know what that means. I wanted to do IP litigation when I started, but found out I didn't like it. Having virtually no debt set me up to do what I'm doing now and I'm grateful for that.


Off-topic, but would you care to elaborate?

spyke123
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Re: Stanford vs. Duke w/ Full Tuition

Postby spyke123 » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:27 pm

go to Stanford... YOLO

on a more serious note.. I bet Stanford will give you some $$

delusional
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Re: Stanford vs. Duke w/ Full Tuition

Postby delusional » Mon Jan 21, 2013 12:30 pm

Depending on how much money your family has, there's a good chance that Stanford is the better option for you. If they barely make ends meet, then you will get substantial financial aid and end up borrowing only around $120k at Stanford - probably $60k more than you'd have to borrow at Duke. But the Stanford loans come with an insurance policy - if you're making too little, they help cover the loans, and Stanford has better employment prospects, easier grading, etc.

Meanwhile, if your family is wealthy enough, it's probably worthwhile to pay the premium for the Stanford JD, for H/P grading, and greater job security.

It seems to me that the only way (although it's somewhat likely) that Duke wins, is if your family is comfortable enough to incur tuition costs, but not comfortable enough to actually cover any of your costs. If you are literally looking at graduating from Stanford with $240k in debt vs. $60k at Duke, then Duke is the right choice.

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Lovely Ludwig Van
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Re: Stanford vs. Duke w/ Full Tuition

Postby Lovely Ludwig Van » Mon Jan 21, 2013 6:08 pm

Assuming Duke at full tuition and Stanford at anywhere close to sticker, I'd go Duke in heartbeat.

Visited last year and the campus is very underrated IMO, or maybe it's because I consider myself a small town person.

PRgradBYU
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Re: Stanford vs. Duke w/ Full Tuition

Postby PRgradBYU » Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:05 pm

kwais wrote:OP, congratulations. However, I am a little confused about the advice in this thread. If the choice was Stanford v. Duke, costs equal, everyone would say Stanford because the employment outcomes (biglaw, not just academia/clerkships) are far better. Yet, because Duke is free, everyone seems to be implying that the Duke will get you wherever you want to go. The cost of Duke does not change the fact that once you are there, your chance of doing IP stuff in NYC is still only about 50-60% (OP has not said that they are IP secure, we are talking about entertainment here).
So, my point, choose Duke for monetary reasons if you wish, but do not conflate money with prospects the way much of this thread has.


I'm surprised no one else has supported this post, let alone acknowledged it. Going to a T-14 school for free is obviously an offer that's going to be tough to turn down, but essentially your decision can be boiled down to this: 1) Graduate from law school with the "freedom" that zero debt offers but still face somewhat limited job prospects or 2) Graduate from law school with a considerable amount of debt and substantially better job prospects. I'm probably guilty of oversimplifying your situation--especially given your specific field of interest, which may change throughout law school anyway--but I wanted to toss in my two cents.

Regardless of what you end up choosing, you've had an awesome cycle and likely have a bright future ahead of you. This is a good predicament to be in. Good luck!

jstr00az
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Re: Stanford vs. Duke w/ Full Tuition

Postby jstr00az » Mon Jan 21, 2013 7:54 pm

cahwc12 wrote:
jstr00az wrote:
bnmillie13 wrote:First time posting on here, and was looking for some input. I've been admitted to Duke, was awarded the Mordecai Scholarship covering full tuition, and had my heart set on heading to Durham for school, but just got the amazing news that I got into Stanford Law. My plan is to pursue my interest in intellectual property, more related to entertainment law, in NYC, and I know that Duke could get me there. But would it be crazy to turn down the opportunity to attend Stanford, just because I'm a little debt adverse?


Duke. The difference between Stanford and Duke is not soooooo great that it's worth $200,000. And you're not "a little" debt adverse. That's a huge amount of debt. Having a Duke degree and negligible debt will allow you to do a lot more things. Right now it's nice to imagine yourself in IP litigation. I would be surprised if you actually know what that means. I wanted to do IP litigation when I started, but found out I didn't like it. Having virtually no debt set me up to do what I'm doing now and I'm grateful for that.


Off-topic, but would you care to elaborate?


Elaborate on what? Most people when they apply to law school have no idea what it means to do IP law. They think of themselves in meetings with entertainers, maybe in complicated arguments with the RIAA or tech firms over copyrights, or defending someone's trademark in court. Most of IP law is transactional - whether it's trademark filings, or patent filings, or contract issues delineating ownership rights for particular IP. Maybe this person imagines IP work as transactional, knows what transactional work involves, and still wants to do it.

My general point is that most law students don't know what it means to do whatever law they imagine they want to do. So given that 3 years is a long time, and you might decide you don't like IP law, it would be better not to be burdened by $200k in debt and be able to have flexibility on the back end.

grapefruits
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Re: Stanford vs. Duke w/ Full Tuition

Postby grapefruits » Mon Jan 21, 2013 10:00 pm

kwais wrote:OP, congratulations. However, I am a little confused about the advice in this thread. If the choice was Stanford v. Duke, costs equal, everyone would say Stanford because the employment outcomes (biglaw, not just academia/clerkships) are far better. Yet, because Duke is free, everyone seems to be implying that the Duke will get you wherever you want to go. The cost of Duke does not change the fact that once you are there, your chance of doing IP stuff in NYC is still only about 50-60% (OP has not said that they are IP secure, we are talking about entertainment here).
So, my point, choose Duke for monetary reasons if you wish, but do not conflate money with prospects the way much of this thread has.


Ehh. Getting the Mordecai lets future employers know that you were an HYS candidate. You won't get a better education at Stanford. Employment prospects for duke grads and Mordecai scholars actually are different. Of recent duke scotus clerks, I'm pretty sure most, if not all, were Mordecai scholars. My advice is to not take any advice from tls at face value. There are a lot of people who just present opinions as fact.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: Stanford vs. Duke w/ Full Tuition

Postby Tiago Splitter » Mon Jan 21, 2013 11:13 pm

grapefruits wrote:Ehh. Getting the Mordecai lets future employers know that you were an HYS candidate. You won't get a better education at Stanford. Employment prospects for duke grads and Mordecai scholars actually are different. Of recent duke scotus clerks, I'm pretty sure most, if not all, were Mordecai scholars. My advice is to not take any advice from tls at face value. There are a lot of people who just present opinions as fact.

Nice comedic twist at the end of the post.

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ManOfTheMinute
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Re: Stanford vs. Duke w/ Full Tuition

Postby ManOfTheMinute » Tue Jan 22, 2013 12:23 am

grapefruits wrote:Ehh. Getting the Mordecai lets future employers know that you were an HYS candidate. You won't get a better education at Stanford. Employment prospects for duke grads and Mordecai scholars actually are different. Of recent duke scotus clerks, I'm pretty sure most, if not all, were Mordecai scholars. My advice is to not take any advice from tls at face value. There are a lot of people who just present opinions as fact.


Agreed. Go to Duke - so there will be more spots for me to try to squeeze my un-qualified ass. PS, mind sharing your stats OP?

bnmillie13
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Re: Stanford vs. Duke w/ Full Tuition

Postby bnmillie13 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 1:57 am

ManOfTheMinute wrote:
grapefruits wrote:Ehh. Getting the Mordecai lets future employers know that you were an HYS candidate. You won't get a better education at Stanford. Employment prospects for duke grads and Mordecai scholars actually are different. Of recent duke scotus clerks, I'm pretty sure most, if not all, were Mordecai scholars. My advice is to not take any advice from tls at face value. There are a lot of people who just present opinions as fact.


Agreed. Go to Duke - so there will be more spots for me to try to squeeze my un-qualified ass. PS, mind sharing your stats OP?


Haha, just updated my stats, you can take a look.

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Yukos
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Re: Stanford vs. Duke w/ Full Tuition

Postby Yukos » Tue Jan 22, 2013 2:07 am

I'm risk averse so I'm taking Stanford (I'm in a similar situation). Sure, NYC isn't that hard to get from Duke (if you wanted LA than this would be an open-shut case for Stanford), but having very little pressure during law school is nice -- plus it might open more doors in the long-term (more prestigious firms, going in-house at a network more easily, whatever). Just my two cents though, you can't go wrong with these options :)

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kwais
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Re: Stanford vs. Duke w/ Full Tuition

Postby kwais » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:14 am

grapefruits wrote:
kwais wrote:OP, congratulations. However, I am a little confused about the advice in this thread. If the choice was Stanford v. Duke, costs equal, everyone would say Stanford because the employment outcomes (biglaw, not just academia/clerkships) are far better. Yet, because Duke is free, everyone seems to be implying that the Duke will get you wherever you want to go. The cost of Duke does not change the fact that once you are there, your chance of doing IP stuff in NYC is still only about 50-60% (OP has not said that they are IP secure, we are talking about entertainment here).
So, my point, choose Duke for monetary reasons if you wish, but do not conflate money with prospects the way much of this thread has.


Ehh. Getting the Mordecai lets future employers know that you were an HYS candidate. You won't get a better education at Stanford. Employment prospects for duke grads and Mordecai scholars actually are different. Of recent duke scotus clerks, I'm pretty sure most, if not all, were Mordecai scholars. My advice is to not take any advice from tls at face value. There are a lot of people who just present opinions as fact.


I think you overestimate what employers will assume. More importantly, I guarantee all of those SCOTUS clerks at Duke still aced their exams, which OP will still have to do in order to have the sort of outcome that puts him/her where she/he would've been at Stanford. Again, I think Duke is a fine option here, as long as it comes with the acknowledgment that life in law school and in the job hunt will be more stressful.

PMan99
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Re: Stanford vs. Duke w/ Full Tuition

Postby PMan99 » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:22 am

kwais wrote:
grapefruits wrote:
kwais wrote:OP, congratulations. However, I am a little confused about the advice in this thread. If the choice was Stanford v. Duke, costs equal, everyone would say Stanford because the employment outcomes (biglaw, not just academia/clerkships) are far better. Yet, because Duke is free, everyone seems to be implying that the Duke will get you wherever you want to go. The cost of Duke does not change the fact that once you are there, your chance of doing IP stuff in NYC is still only about 50-60% (OP has not said that they are IP secure, we are talking about entertainment here).
So, my point, choose Duke for monetary reasons if you wish, but do not conflate money with prospects the way much of this thread has.


Ehh. Getting the Mordecai lets future employers know that you were an HYS candidate. You won't get a better education at Stanford. Employment prospects for duke grads and Mordecai scholars actually are different. Of recent duke scotus clerks, I'm pretty sure most, if not all, were Mordecai scholars. My advice is to not take any advice from tls at face value. There are a lot of people who just present opinions as fact.


I think you overestimate what employers will assume. More importantly, I guarantee all of those SCOTUS clerks at Duke still aced their exams, which OP will still have to do in order to have the sort of outcome that puts him/her where she/he would've been at Stanford. Again, I think Duke is a fine option here, as long as it comes with the acknowledgment that life in law school and in the job hunt will be more stressful.


It's not quite as stressful when you don't have 200k+ of compounding debt riding on it.

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kwais
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Re: Stanford vs. Duke w/ Full Tuition

Postby kwais » Tue Jan 22, 2013 11:27 am

PMan99 wrote:
kwais wrote:
grapefruits wrote:
kwais wrote:OP, congratulations. However, I am a little confused about the advice in this thread. If the choice was Stanford v. Duke, costs equal, everyone would say Stanford because the employment outcomes (biglaw, not just academia/clerkships) are far better. Yet, because Duke is free, everyone seems to be implying that the Duke will get you wherever you want to go. The cost of Duke does not change the fact that once you are there, your chance of doing IP stuff in NYC is still only about 50-60% (OP has not said that they are IP secure, we are talking about entertainment here).
So, my point, choose Duke for monetary reasons if you wish, but do not conflate money with prospects the way much of this thread has.


Ehh. Getting the Mordecai lets future employers know that you were an HYS candidate. You won't get a better education at Stanford. Employment prospects for duke grads and Mordecai scholars actually are different. Of recent duke scotus clerks, I'm pretty sure most, if not all, were Mordecai scholars. My advice is to not take any advice from tls at face value. There are a lot of people who just present opinions as fact.


I think you overestimate what employers will assume. More importantly, I guarantee all of those SCOTUS clerks at Duke still aced their exams, which OP will still have to do in order to have the sort of outcome that puts him/her where she/he would've been at Stanford. Again, I think Duke is a fine option here, as long as it comes with the acknowledgment that life in law school and in the job hunt will be more stressful.


It's not quite as stressful when you don't have 200k+ of compounding debt riding on it.


Agreed. But let's go overboard and pretend that not achieving what you want in life because you wanted to save money isn't a deeply disappointing event. I don't think he'll be skipping through the streets saying "At least I have no debt!"




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