ND v. WLU Forum

[dingbat]

No it doesn't "affirm" (by which I think you mean "confirm") his quesstimate. He guesstimate was based on bullshit about "top this" and "top that". Why not look at actual numbers that answer the question about how well these schools do. You can't predict your success in law school - everyone is trying to get good grades and is reasonably smart. You can make estimates based on past school performance, and for all three of those schools, it's not good in NYC.

I do look at actual numbers. I don't limit it to just class of 2011; I have looked at NLJ250 for every year since 2005, and have looked at the NALP data for class of 2011, 2010 and 2009.

You also need to realize that if a school places 9% in biglaw, as you said for UMN, that doesn't mean the top 9%. Some people transfer out, and those are predominantly at the top of the food chain. A number of people in the class choose a clerkship over biglaw. A number of people are really bad interviewers. Some bid badly and others choose not to go to biglaw for any of a number of other reasons. What this means is that more than the top 9% are competitive.

Law firms have gotten more selective, so, to give one example where I got the numbers straight from the horse's mouth (they told me the GPA cutoffs), a firm that used to interview top 1/3 at my school now restricts interviews to top 1/4. That's still more than the school placed into biglaw in 2011.
Note that this is one of the biggest firms in the country; I'm pretty sure some lesser law firms are willing to interview people with even lower grades

edit: this firm is V10; I'm sure a V100 is less selective

[bcsum00]

In no way are BC, BU, or GW better for big law in NYC than Notre Dame. Those schools are intensely region-centric and their OCI programs will undoubtedly reflect that. Myth debunked.

Got anything to back that up?

They're all equally bad at NYC big law.... some slightly worse than others, but none of them are good bets for NYC big law. Go look at lawschooltransparency.com numbers for NY and for BigLaw. The schools are placing approx. 15 percent or less in 2011 in BigLaw in ANY city.

I look at NLJ250 data for biglaw employment:

BC 21.75%
Fordham 19.58%
BU 17.84%
GW 17.76%
ND 13.68%

According to LST, placement into NY is as follows:
BC 6.3%
BU 15.4%
GW 8.9%
ND 8.4%

Let's apply logic and assume that the reason BC has such a low percentage going into NY is because they found local biglaw jobs. Using this simple logic, it's fair to say that BC and BU place better in NY than GW and ND (I'm willing to concede parity with GWmainly because I don't feel like arguing the point)

Should you not make the same assumption regarding ND? I am not going to make an argument for why ND's biglaw numbers are so low in the recorded data (although I can say that my class (2L) have crushed those numbers in terms of SA positions), but as for its low rate in NY: those who can find biglaw jobs as ND alums are likely to find them all over the country and not concentrated in one market. You see very few BU/BC/GW alums in Texas, California, Chicago, etc. This argument is somewhat moot, because we have no way of knowing how many students targeted NYC biglaw and failed from ND.

The only thing that I believe NDLS can offer which the other schools do not is an alumni base that is willing to help students.

[dingbat]

The only thing that I believe NDLS can offer which the other schools do not is an alumni base that is willing to help students.

Now you're tripping the light fantastic.

The first point is a fair argument to make and goes to the heart of the issue, but you've got a huge logic fail. Your second point is just hugely prejudicial and inaccurate

[bcsum00]

The only thing that I believe NDLS can offer which the other schools do not is an alumni base that is willing to help students.

Now you're tripping the light fantastic.

The first point is a fair argument to make and goes to the heart of the issue, but you've got a huge logic fail. Your second point is just hugely prejudicial and inaccurate

I am just basing this off of experience. You mentioned that you are a first year at Fordham. Have you done much networking with alumni? Is that a practice that your school recommends? It is something that is highly recommended here at NDLS. I know from my peers at other schools that it is not considered a viable tactic for finding employment / very few people use it as a tactic. I am not speaking as an authority, but as I said just adding my two cents.

[dingbat]

The only thing that I believe NDLS can offer which the other schools do not is an alumni base that is willing to help students.

Now you're tripping the light fantastic.

The first point is a fair argument to make and goes to the heart of the issue, but you've got a huge logic fail. Your second point is just hugely prejudicial and inaccurate

I am just basing this off of experience. You mentioned that you are a first year at Fordham. Have you done much networking with alumni? Is that a practice that your school recommends? It is something that is highly recommended here at NDLS. I know from my peers at other schools that it is not considered a viable tactic for finding employment / very few people use it as a tactic. I am not speaking as an authority, but as I said just adding my two cents.

It's a viable tactic at all schools. It has better payoff at some schools and less than others, but I doubt ND's alumni are that much more helpful than the other schools.

As an aside, yes, I'm a 1L. At Fordham, if you're top 1/4 to top 1/3 you don't need to network as much as at many other schools (like ND )
That being said, I know many alumni and can tell you that many of them are willing to help.
I'm also a non-trad, so I've learned previously (from both ends) about alumni networking

[bcsum00]

The only thing that I believe NDLS can offer which the other schools do not is an alumni base that is willing to help students.

Now you're tripping the light fantastic.

The first point is a fair argument to make and goes to the heart of the issue, but you've got a huge logic fail. Your second point is just hugely prejudicial and inaccurate

I am just basing this off of experience. You mentioned that you are a first year at Fordham. Have you done much networking with alumni? Is that a practice that your school recommends? It is something that is highly recommended here at NDLS. I know from my peers at other schools that it is not considered a viable tactic for finding employment / very few people use it as a tactic. I am not speaking as an authority, but as I said just adding my two cents.

It's a viable tactic at all schools. It has better payoff at some schools and less than others, but I doubt ND's alumni are that much more helpful than the other schools.

As an aside, yes, I'm a 1L. At Fordham, if you're top 1/4 to top 1/3 you don't need to network as much as at many other schools (like ND )
That being said, I know many alumni and can tell you that many of them are willing to help.
I'm also a non-trad, so I've learned previously (from both ends) about alumni networking

That must be nice. Admittedly, I did a crazy amount of networking, but it paid off in the end: v10 SA position. Mind you (and this sort of changes the premise of the original debate), but via networking I was able to realize that I could land a SA in just about any market. I was able to get interviews in Cali, DC, NYC, etc without any "ties" to any of those markets. If you come to NDLS and are flexible with your plans (i.e. not be married to the idea of going back to NYC), then I think you can be successful at landing a biglaw gig in many markets (as opposed to one central market).

[bcsum00]

The only thing that I believe NDLS can offer which the other schools do not is an alumni base that is willing to help students.

If you come to NDLS and are flexible with your plans (i.e. not be married to the idea of going back to NYC), then I think you can be successful at landing a biglaw gig in many markets (as opposed to one central market).[/quote][/quote][/quote]

If this applies to schools like BU, BC, GW, UMN, etc, then these schools are all relatively the same. I, for one, do not know the answer, but can only speak to what I see, here, at NDLS.

[ndirish2010]

I just came back to this thread....OP if you think NDLS is conservative, you probably shouldn't go to W&L either haha.

[majnana]

That must be nice. Admittedly, I did a crazy amount of networking, but it paid off in the end: v10 SA position. Mind you (and this sort of changes the premise of the original debate), but via networking I was able to realize that I could land a SA in just about any market. I was able to get interviews in Cali, DC, NYC, etc without any "ties" to any of those markets. If you come to NDLS and are flexible with your plans (i.e. not be married to the idea of going back to NYC), then I think you can be successful at landing a biglaw gig in many markets (as opposed to one central market).

When trying to decide between NDLS, Minn, and IUB all with the same scholarship money attached, or going to a lower-ranked school like Ohio State that has a built-in market (and easier networking) my main concern with NDLS is the difficulty in networking since I won't be in a city. How did you manage to do a crazy amount of networking while living in South Bend? Was it all done over the phone with NDLS alumni, or done during the summers? I love to network and I'm by no means socially-impaired, but NDLS is geographically isolated so I wonder how many opportunities there are other than during the summers (when everyone apparently leaves South Bend).

I know government jobs are extremely competitive, and from what I hear it's easier if you go to school (and network while there) in the city where you want to work. How do NDLS students get gov't jobs at all? Are they only able to get them back in their home cities?

Coming out of NDLS what kind of options are there other than Biglaw? (For instance, as a mother already, I'm skeptical of an ability to put in 100-hour weeks at a Biglaw firm, so I'm concerned that other options from NDLS will be limited without a home state I'm willing to take my degree back to).

I really want to choose NDLS. If I can get reassurance that I won't be severely handicapped in the job hunt because I don't plan on returning to a home state, then it's where I want to be come August. With the job market so tight all over I'm worried about my lack of "ties" to anywhere.

[majnana]

That must be nice. Admittedly, I did a crazy amount of networking, but it paid off in the end: v10 SA position. Mind you (and this sort of changes the premise of the original debate), but via networking I was able to realize that I could land a SA in just about any market. I was able to get interviews in Cali, DC, NYC, etc without any "ties" to any of those markets. If you come to NDLS and are flexible with your plans (i.e. not be married to the idea of going back to NYC), then I think you can be successful at landing a biglaw gig in many markets (as opposed to one central market).

When trying to decide between NDLS, Minn, and IUB all with the same scholarship money attached, or going to a lower-ranked school like Ohio State that has a built-in market (and easier networking) my main concern with NDLS is the difficulty in networking since I won't be in a city. How did you manage to do a crazy amount of networking while living in South Bend? Was it all done over the phone with NDLS alumni, or done during the summers? I love to network and I'm by no means socially-impaired, but NDLS is geographically isolated so I wonder how many opportunities there are other than during the summers (when everyone apparently leaves South Bend).

I know government jobs are extremely competitive, and from what I hear it's easier if you go to school (and network while there) in the city where you want to work. How do NDLS students get gov't jobs at all? Are they only able to get them back in their home cities?

Coming out of NDLS what kind of options are there other than Biglaw? (For instance, as a mother already, I'm skeptical of an ability to put in 100-hour weeks at a Biglaw firm, so I'm concerned that other options from NDLS will be limited without a home state I'm willing to take my degree back to).

I really want to choose NDLS. If I can get reassurance that I won't be severely handicapped in the job hunt because I don't plan on returning to a home state, then it's where I want to be come August. With the job market so tight all over I'm worried about my lack of "ties" to anywhere.

Bump, because all these questions are still driving me nuts as I head toward a final decision.

[rooneydbc]

I just came back to this thread....OP if you think NDLS is conservative, you probably shouldn't go to W&L either haha.

This point is well taken haha. I imagine having a campus in which Robert E. Lee is buried wouldn't lend it's self well to a democratic socialist.

I'll be heading to Notre Dame in April, so I'm looking forward to that. I've recently gotten into BC (still waiting to hear about scholarship) and Emory (with $20k a year), both of these things have really made the choice harder, especially if BC gives me money. I'm still waiting on BU and the four super-reaches, Columbia, NYU, Cornell, and UVA and my two waitlists GWU and UMN. If I get money from BC or get into BU with money, I'll have a really tough time deciding, especially with BU's well regarded IP program. I also have ties to Boston because my sister lives there.

I've already decided that I won't be going to Santa Clara, Brooklyn, Cardozo, UC Hastings, Northeastern, and American.

The schools I've gotten into and are giving me agita are NDLS, Washington and Lee, Emory, BC, Fordham, and William and Mary.

This is headache inducing.

Manjnana's questions are also pretty interesting to me.