USC at Sticker or Loyola with $90k?

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USC at sticker or Loyola with $90k

USC at sticker.
33
87%
Loyola with $90k (and 3.2 stip).
5
13%
 
Total votes: 38

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CO2016YEAH
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USC at Sticker or Loyola with $90k?

Postby CO2016YEAH » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:06 am

I plan on working in L.A., or at least somewhere in Southern California (or Northern CA or even out of state, if it comes to it).

Loyola with $90k (and 3.2 stips), or USC at sticker???

LSTfan
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Re: USC at Sticker or Loyola with $90k?

Postby LSTfan » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:36 am

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Last edited by LSTfan on Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: USC at Sticker or Loyola with $90k?

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Thu Jan 17, 2013 3:44 am

Huge rank, prestige, LA ties, and alumni network difference. SC is TCR.

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ndirish2010
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Re: USC at Sticker or Loyola with $90k?

Postby ndirish2010 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:46 am

Retake. USC at sticker is meh. Loyola is just not good.

BigZuck
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Re: USC at Sticker or Loyola with $90k?

Postby BigZuck » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:50 am

Are these actual options or hypos?

To be perfectly honest I think I would choose to just not go to law school. USC is one of my very top choices but not sure I would be able to pull the trigger there unless I had an offer near that one at Loyola (30K+ a year). The legal market in California is just that bad. USC is a great school and does a fine job of putting people into big law but once you finish outside the top 1/3 or so what are you going to do? All of this applies to UCLA but they are an even bigger risk because of even worse employment outcomes than SC in my opinion.

If you want to be a lawyer above all else and don't care about big law maybe I would choose Loyola assuming COA isn't still astronomical after that 90K discount. Also the stips would have to be removed, those sound brutal.

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CO2016YEAH
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Re: USC at Sticker or Loyola with $90k?

Postby CO2016YEAH » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:29 pm

LSTFan: The debt would wind up being approx. $100k out of LLS (if the scholly renews), and about $200 (maybe a little more) at USC. 3.2, according to LLS, is about top 45-50%.

Johnny_Rizzy: You're right. But I do think the LLS alumni network in L.A. (and SoCal, more generally) is substantial. Moreover, I also think the law school one attended becomes a less significant component of one's career the further one is into that career, whereas the extra $100k in debt isn't going anywhere. I'm considering that the top (5-10-20%, whatever) out of Loyola will still do relatively well, even if not BigLaw. If I'm not top 20% I may have a tougher time, but I still think I'll be able to make something happen for myself.

NDIrish: Retaking and gaining 10 points would be ideal. Though, it is getting to be a little late in the game to do so, and I'm not even sure how much room there is for gain for me. Waiting another year is not really an option, especially considering the offer from LLS.

Zuck: That is the million dollar question! The offer at Loyola is on the table; the other is merely a hypo at the moment (but I'm still waiting and hopeful). I've basically determined before hand that USC or UCLA could be interchangeable here, as you indicated. You might say I listed USC in response to a "gut feeling." Basically, I'm thinking BigLaw is going to be a huge crap-shoot coming from either of these schools. I expect I'd need to rank comparatively (meaning very close to the top) at either school to land such a job. Having said that, I'm hell-bent on being a lawyer; if my career begins with doing pro-bono petty crime and divorces in my spare time away from my job dunking fries at Jack-in-the-Box then so be it. The reality is I'm non-traditional with somewhat substantial career experience, so the worse case scenario would be returning to a previous industry in the short term, while searching for better opportunities or attempting to build a private practice. Having stips sucks, but I'll attempt to negotiate them and, failing negotiation, they provide an added incentive to bust ass.


Thank you for all your responses. In fact, I'm not into USC or UCLA as of yet, and might not ever be. While I'm still not convinced going for the better ranked school with an additional six-figures of debt is the wiser choice, threads like this serve as an excellent sounding board.

Best of luck to you all with your admissions!

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ndirish2010
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Re: USC at Sticker or Loyola with $90k?

Postby ndirish2010 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 12:31 pm

The offer from Loyola is not exactly a good one, so why would you "especially consider" it? Why is waiting another year "not an option?" Nobody should pay sticker for USC and nobody should go to Loyola unless it was absolutely free (even then, opportunity cost).

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Bronck
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Re: USC at Sticker or Loyola with $90k?

Postby Bronck » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:35 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:Retake. USC at sticker is meh. Loyola is just not good.

rad lulz
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Re: USC at Sticker or Loyola with $90k?

Postby rad lulz » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:37 pm

Sticker at USC is asinine

Going to Loyola is asinine with that sholarship and stips

Retake or don't go

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Re: USC at Sticker or Loyola with $90k?

Postby BigZuck » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:41 pm

rad lulz wrote:Sticker at USC is asinine

Going to Loyola is asinine with that sholarship and stips

Retake or don't go


What would be a worthy scholarship at USC? The 70K you got at Vandy? More? Less?

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Re: USC at Sticker or Loyola with $90k?

Postby rad lulz » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:49 pm

BigZuck wrote:
rad lulz wrote:Sticker at USC is asinine

Going to Loyola is asinine with that sholarship and stips

Retake or don't go


What would be a worthy scholarship at USC? The 70K you got at Vandy? More? Less?

Given the stats we have today, I probably would not attend Vandy if I got the same scholarship today. Though attending with a 70k+ scholarship isn't indefensible.

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CO2016YEAH
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Re: USC at Sticker or Loyola with $90k?

Postby CO2016YEAH » Thu Jan 17, 2013 1:52 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:The offer from Loyola is not exactly a good one, so why would you "especially consider" it? Why is waiting another year "not an option?" Nobody should pay sticker for USC and nobody should go to Loyola unless it was absolutely free (even then, opportunity cost).


An offer's merit is subjective and opinions will vary, but I still consider 2/3 tuition at Loyola to be descent. Also, despite the position of 51 in USNW, Loyola does have a solid reputation and alumni network in the regional market; as this is the market I want to work in, going for 1/3 of tuition is an option which carries more appeal than waiting, even if second to attending USC without respect to cost.

As for waiting, let me rephrase: it is an option, but is not an appealing one and I do not anticipate that it would be a wise move strategically. Again, this determination is subject to opinion, but I am far from K-JD and with familial obligations; re-entering the workforce and building my career is of immediate importance. In addition, I'm not sure if there are many more points for me to gain on the LSAT, which would be necessary for a significantly improved application cycle outcome.

While I understand your logic (at least to a degree), it is also important to consider that the USNW statistics we tend to regard as the holy grail of information and the basis for concrete normative judgments are not static over an entire career. Having said that, while I appreciate your opinions and feedback, the statements that "nobody should pay sticker for USC" and "nobody should go to Loyola unless it was absolutely free" are extremely over-broad and pessimistic; even if looking at USNW employment stats at graduation (which, granted, are not entirely reliable and, as I've said, are not static), considering median private sector at USC of $160k vs. $75k at LLS, the price of full tuition is recouped in 2 years (maybe 3 or even 4 considering income taxes and interest). On its face this looks like a strong argument for USC but, again, its basis is not concrete; the reality is there are also plenty of attorneys with strong careers that have come out of Loyola. COL is a fact of life whether in school or not, so I'll set the COL consideration aside for the moment; having a JD from a strong regional school for $45k in tuition doesn't look too bad, especially if USC doesn't wind up being an option.

As for opportunity cost, it is also present for each year I am not building my law career. This is especially true if I don't manage to secure a spot at a better school or a drastically better scholarship package next year.

Having said all of this, your pessimism has validity. But while we would all love to go to HYS at sticker, or to a T-14/20,etc. with good money and nothing less, this is simply not a reality for the vast majority of law school applicants. In search of a best case scenario, maybe USC at sticker or retaking is the better option. Maybe one last solid crack at a retake and sitting out a cycle is the wiser choice.

I'm not looking for a flame war, just reasonable discourse considering outcomes with due respect to a variety of factors.

Thanks for your input.

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Rahviveh
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Re: USC at Sticker or Loyola with $90k?

Postby Rahviveh » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:02 pm

CO2016YEAH wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:The offer from Loyola is not exactly a good one, so why would you "especially consider" it? Why is waiting another year "not an option?" Nobody should pay sticker for USC and nobody should go to Loyola unless it was absolutely free (even then, opportunity cost).


An offer's merit is subjective and opinions will vary, but I still consider 2/3 tuition at Loyola to be descent. Also, despite the position of 51 in USNW, Loyola does have a solid reputation and alumni network in the regional market; as this is the market I want to work in, going for 1/3 of tuition is an option which carries more appeal than waiting, even if second to attending USC without respect to cost.

As for waiting, let me rephrase: it is an option, but is not an appealing one and I do not anticipate that it would be a wise move strategically. Again, this determination is subject to opinion, but I am far from K-JD and with familial obligations; re-entering the workforce and building my career is of immediate importance. In addition, I'm not sure if there are many more points for me to gain on the LSAT, which would be necessary for a significantly improved application cycle outcome.

While I understand your logic (at least to a degree), it is also important to consider that the USNW statistics we tend to regard as the holy grail of information and the basis for concrete normative judgments are not static over an entire career. Having said that, while I appreciate your opinions and feedback, the statements that "nobody should pay sticker for USC" and "nobody should go to Loyola unless it was absolutely free" are extremely over-broad and pessimistic; even if looking at USNW employment stats at graduation (which, granted, are not entirely reliable and, as I've said, are not static), considering median private sector at USC of $160k vs. $75k at LLS, the price of full tuition is recouped in 2 years (maybe 3 or even 4 considering income taxes and interest). On its face this looks like a strong argument for USC but, again, its basis is not concrete; the reality is there are also plenty of attorneys with strong careers that have come out of Loyola. COL is a fact of life whether in school or not, so I'll set the COL consideration aside for the moment; having a JD from a strong regional school for $45k in tuition doesn't look too bad, especially if USC doesn't wind up being an option.

As for opportunity cost, it is also present for each year I am not building my law career. This is especially true if I don't manage to secure a spot at a better school or a drastically better scholarship package next year.

Having said all of this, your pessimism has validity. But while we would all love to go to HYS at sticker, or to a T-14/20,etc. with good money and nothing less, this is simply not a reality for the vast majority of law school applicants. In search of a best case scenario, maybe USC at sticker or retaking is the better option. Maybe one last solid crack at a retake and sitting out a cycle is the wiser choice.

I'm not looking for a flame war, just reasonable discourse considering outcomes with due respect to a variety of factors.

Thanks for your input.


Huh? Nobody here relies on US News.

You have a lot of errors in your post and are about to get slammed hard. My suggestion via retaking is that while it is getting late in the game, you can study and prepare for June. If you do much better in June, you can re-evaluate your options (I'm almost positive that if you got a few more points you'd be willing to wait out a cycle).

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Re: USC at Sticker or Loyola with $90k?

Postby francesfarmer » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:06 pm

CO2016YEAH wrote:While I understand your logic (at least to a degree), it is also important to consider that the USNW statistics we tend to regard as the holy grail of information and the basis for concrete normative judgments are not static over an entire career. Having said that, while I appreciate your opinions and feedback, the statements that "nobody should pay sticker for USC" and "nobody should go to Loyola unless it was absolutely free" are extremely over-broad and pessimistic; even if looking at USNW employment stats at graduation (which, granted, are not entirely reliable and, as I've said, are not static), considering median private sector at USC of $160k vs. $75k at LLS, the price of full tuition is recouped in 2 years (maybe 3 or even 4 considering income taxes and interest). On its face this looks like a strong argument for USC but, again, its basis is not concrete; the reality is there are also plenty of attorneys with strong careers that have come out of Loyola.

You are seriously overestimating the chances of making that type of money coming out those schools.

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=loyola&show=ABA

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=usc&show=sals

rad lulz
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Re: USC at Sticker or Loyola with $90k?

Postby rad lulz » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:06 pm

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?r=ca

More people are underemployed from Loyola than employed in FT/LT legal jobs

As for USC, I don't know why you'd pay sticker for a 68% shot at ANY FT/LT legal job. Note that that number is not "jobs that would make spending over $200,000 worthwhile.

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ndirish2010
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Re: USC at Sticker or Loyola with $90k?

Postby ndirish2010 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:10 pm

If you can get into USC sticker, then you only need two more points to get decent money and/or get T14. I'm not going to address the many fallacies in your previous post because I think you even know that they are fallacies.

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CO2016YEAH
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Re: USC at Sticker or Loyola with $90k?

Postby CO2016YEAH » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:11 pm

ChampagnePapi wrote:
CO2016YEAH wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:The offer from Loyola is not exactly a good one, so why would you "especially consider" it? Why is waiting another year "not an option?" Nobody should pay sticker for USC and nobody should go to Loyola unless it was absolutely free (even then, opportunity cost).


An offer's merit is subjective and opinions will vary, but I still consider 2/3 tuition at Loyola to be descent. Also, despite the position of 51 in USNW, Loyola does have a solid reputation and alumni network in the regional market; as this is the market I want to work in, going for 1/3 of tuition is an option which carries more appeal than waiting, even if second to attending USC without respect to cost.

As for waiting, let me rephrase: it is an option, but is not an appealing one and I do not anticipate that it would be a wise move strategically. Again, this determination is subject to opinion, but I am far from K-JD and with familial obligations; re-entering the workforce and building my career is of immediate importance. In addition, I'm not sure if there are many more points for me to gain on the LSAT, which would be necessary for a significantly improved application cycle outcome.

While I understand your logic (at least to a degree), it is also important to consider that the USNW statistics we tend to regard as the holy grail of information and the basis for concrete normative judgments are not static over an entire career. Having said that, while I appreciate your opinions and feedback, the statements that "nobody should pay sticker for USC" and "nobody should go to Loyola unless it was absolutely free" are extremely over-broad and pessimistic; even if looking at USNW employment stats at graduation (which, granted, are not entirely reliable and, as I've said, are not static), considering median private sector at USC of $160k vs. $75k at LLS, the price of full tuition is recouped in 2 years (maybe 3 or even 4 considering income taxes and interest). On its face this looks like a strong argument for USC but, again, its basis is not concrete; the reality is there are also plenty of attorneys with strong careers that have come out of Loyola. COL is a fact of life whether in school or not, so I'll set the COL consideration aside for the moment; having a JD from a strong regional school for $45k in tuition doesn't look too bad, especially if USC doesn't wind up being an option.

As for opportunity cost, it is also present for each year I am not building my law career. This is especially true if I don't manage to secure a spot at a better school or a drastically better scholarship package next year.

Having said all of this, your pessimism has validity. But while we would all love to go to HYS at sticker, or to a T-14/20,etc. with good money and nothing less, this is simply not a reality for the vast majority of law school applicants. In search of a best case scenario, maybe USC at sticker or retaking is the better option. Maybe one last solid crack at a retake and sitting out a cycle is the wiser choice.

I'm not looking for a flame war, just reasonable discourse considering outcomes with due respect to a variety of factors.

Thanks for your input.


Huh? Nobody here relies on US News.


You have a lot of errors in your post and are about to get slammed hard. My suggestion via retaking is that while it is getting late in the game, you can study and prepare for June. If you do much better in June, you can re-evaluate your options (I'm almost positive that if you got a few more points you'd be willing to wait out a cycle).


Really? How many times a day are "T14," "T1," T2," "TTT," and "TTTT" referenced? How are people in Tennessee and Indiana forming strong opinions on the merits of schools on the other side of the country? It may not be pretty and we may not like it, but USNW gets a lot of attention.

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Re: USC at Sticker or Loyola with $90k?

Postby rad lulz » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:13 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:If you can get into USC sticker, then you only need two more points to get decent money and/or get T14. I'm not going to address the many fallacies in your previous post because I think you even know that they are fallacies.

But there are MANY successful Loyola grads

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Re: USC at Sticker or Loyola with $90k?

Postby ndirish2010 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:14 pm

The USNWR don't create the tiers, the tiers create USNWR. Placement stats are all that matter.

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Re: USC at Sticker or Loyola with $90k?

Postby BigZuck » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:14 pm

FWIW I did exactly what champagnepapi is talking about last cycle, I was choosing between a couple of schools in the top 50, jumped 5+ points and am now looking at t14 schools and t20 schools with serious scholarships. It's a great plan.

Also the whole "it would be nice if we could all go to Yale but that's not a reality for most of us so I'll have to look at these schools" argument is flawed in that it assumes that people have to go to law school but they don't. If only T14 are reasonable choices (and I'm not saying they are, let's just say for the sake of the argument they are) then everyone who falls short of acceptance to them either needs to keep retaking until they get in or just choose a different career. If they can't get into a reasonable school then they should just acknowledge that they are, in the immortal words of Mr. Pancakes, disqualified from attending law school. I will never be an astronaut or an NFL quarterback because I don't have the required skills/pedigree. Becoming a lawyer should be no different. A desire to be a lawyer does not mean you should just go to whatever law school you can if its an unreasonable/irrational choice to make.

Also I'm not trying to pick on you this is just an argument I've seen a lot lately here and it seems to be deeply flawed to me.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: USC at Sticker or Loyola with $90k?

Postby Tiago Splitter » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:20 pm

CO2016YEAH wrote:I am far from K-JD and with familial obligations; re-entering the workforce and building my career is of immediate importance.

You suggested in your original post that becoming a lawyer was your number one priority. You'd even be willing to work part time at Jack in the Box to make it happen. Providing for your family didn't seem to be such a grave concern, but the funny thing is that if you are primarily concerned about providing for your family, you'd quickly turn down both of these options.

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Re: USC at Sticker or Loyola with $90k?

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:22 pm

Someone needs to make a "0L fallacy bingo" sheet for these posts.

OP, does looking at the actual employment stats make you question, at all, the value of this wonderful "alumni network"?

Why do you think you'll be in the top 20% of the class? Show your work.

How many students could each school confirm to be making the median private sector salary? Show your work.

I'll even help you out a bit:

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=loyola
http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=usc

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Re: USC at Sticker or Loyola with $90k?

Postby CO2016YEAH » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:36 pm

BigZuck wrote:FWIW I did exactly what champagnepapi is talking about last cycle, I was choosing between a couple of schools in the top 50, jumped 5+ points and am now looking at t14 schools and t20 schools with serious scholarships. It's a great plan.

Also the whole "it would be nice if we could all go to Yale but that's not a reality for most of us so I'll have to look at these schools" argument is flawed in that it assumes that people have to go to law school but they don't. If only T14 are reasonable choices (and I'm not saying they are, let's just say for the sake of the argument they are) then everyone who falls short of acceptance to them either needs to keep retaking until they get in or just choose a different career. If they can't get into a reasonable school then they should just acknowledge that they are, in the immortal words of Mr. Pancakes, disqualified from attending law school. I will never be an astronaut or an NFL quarterback because I don't have the required skills/pedigree. Becoming a lawyer should be no different. A desire to be a lawyer does not mean you should just go to whatever law school you can if its an unreasonable/irrational choice to make.

Also I'm not trying to pick on you this is just an argument I've seen a lot lately here and it seems to be deeply flawed to me.


I wholeheartedly agree with the statement that those who want to be lawyers shouldn't just go wherever they get in. And I also agree that not all those that want to be lawyers are cut out for the profession and possess the necessary attributes.

And I also agree that those who want to be lawyers must do what is necessary to get into a place that will adequately prepare them for the job (or are otherwise disqualified-lol). The dilemma here is not between The Peoples College and Yale. The most common fallacy that I see on TLS is the notion that any school <T14 is completely and utterly not worth attending. The vast majority of those working in the profession, I'm confident, would disagree.

I used the wage considerations above for illustrative purposes. I'm well aware the majority from either school are not making $160k, but I do think $75 out of Loyola is well within reach.

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CO2016YEAH
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Re: USC at Sticker or Loyola with $90k?

Postby CO2016YEAH » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:42 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
CO2016YEAH wrote:I am far from K-JD and with familial obligations; re-entering the workforce and building my career is of immediate importance.

You suggested in your original post that becoming a lawyer was your number one priority. You'd even be willing to work part time at Jack in the Box to make it happen. Providing for your family didn't seem to be such a grave concern, but the funny thing is that if you are primarily concerned about providing for your family, you'd quickly turn down both of these options.


You'll also note from the earlier post that "Jack in the Box" is not the actual alternative to immediately practicing law, but was used in order to illustrate that BigLaw debt free is not the primary objective. Furthermore, the key phrase in the latter post was "building my career," not working probono indefinitely.

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Re: USC at Sticker or Loyola with $90k?

Postby timbs4339 » Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:44 pm

CO2016YEAH wrote:
BigZuck wrote:FWIW I did exactly what champagnepapi is talking about last cycle, I was choosing between a couple of schools in the top 50, jumped 5+ points and am now looking at t14 schools and t20 schools with serious scholarships. It's a great plan.

Also the whole "it would be nice if we could all go to Yale but that's not a reality for most of us so I'll have to look at these schools" argument is flawed in that it assumes that people have to go to law school but they don't. If only T14 are reasonable choices (and I'm not saying they are, let's just say for the sake of the argument they are) then everyone who falls short of acceptance to them either needs to keep retaking until they get in or just choose a different career. If they can't get into a reasonable school then they should just acknowledge that they are, in the immortal words of Mr. Pancakes, disqualified from attending law school. I will never be an astronaut or an NFL quarterback because I don't have the required skills/pedigree. Becoming a lawyer should be no different. A desire to be a lawyer does not mean you should just go to whatever law school you can if its an unreasonable/irrational choice to make.

Also I'm not trying to pick on you this is just an argument I've seen a lot lately here and it seems to be deeply flawed to me.


I wholeheartedly agree with the statement that those who want to be lawyers shouldn't just go wherever they get in. And I also agree that not all those that want to be lawyers are cut out for the profession and possess the necessary attributes.

And I also agree that those who want to be lawyers must do what is necessary to get into a place that will adequately prepare them for the job (or are otherwise disqualified-lol). The dilemma here is not between The Peoples College and Yale. The most common fallacy that I see on TLS is the notion that any school <T14 is completely and utterly not worth attending. The vast majority of those working in the profession, I'm confident, would disagree.

I used the wage considerations above for illustrative purposes. I'm well aware the majority from either school are not making $160k, but I do think $75 out of Loyola is well within reach.


Upon what evidence is that based?

USC could only confirm that 36% of its graduates were employed with a salary of over $72,000.

There are no salary numbers for Loyola. Loyola could only confirm about 9% of its graduates in firms of over 50 and another 2% in federal clerkships. Even assume that half, 3%, of students in FT/LT government or PI positions could have obtained positions paying in excess of 75,000 and you are nowhere near "well within reach" for Loyola or even USC.

You're misrepresenting the TLS CW. The CW is that no T14 school is worth attending at a high price- 150k-250K at many schools. I have seen people advise on non-T14 schools here all the time- as long as the student has a substantial scholarship or other mitigating factors.
Last edited by timbs4339 on Thu Jan 17, 2013 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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