National schools.

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eric922
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National schools.

Postby eric922 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:22 pm

I've started doing research on which law school I'd like to attend depending on my LSAT score. I'm retaking if i'ts below 170, I may still retake if I hit that. Anyway, I want to work in NYC one day. I'm pretty firm on that, but I'm willing to live elsewhere for 3 years if I can get into a school that would help me avoid debt (which frankly terrifies me), but still give me a good shot at NYC. That being said, aside from schools in NY such as NYU, Columbia, Cornell, and Fordham, what schools should I be looking it? Right now I'm looking at the NY ones, all the T14 and Vandy because if I hit my target score it seems like they will give me a decent scholarship despite the fact that my GPA will be a 3.3 when I apply. All that being said, are all the schools in the T14 and Vandy portable or are they merely strong in their region and are there any others I should consider? Fordham is probably as low as I would go on the NYC schools simply because all the others seem to have dismal employment ratings and their tuition is still pretty bad when combined with COA.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: National schools.

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:40 pm

It's hard to make the case for Fordham for someone with your GPA, because even if you break 170 you aren't likely to get enough scholarship money to make the gamble worthwhile. If you want NYC BigLaw, you'll want to stay within the T-14, and a few schools in it like Duke and Berkeley may be tough regardless of your LSAT score. Chances are the only schools that will throw big scholarships your way are ones with terrible NYC/BigLaw placement, which is why splitters wanting BigLaw tend to be better off going to the highest ranked school. All you can do now get the highest possible LSAT and see what happens.

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manofjustice
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Re: National schools.

Postby manofjustice » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:44 pm

eric922 wrote:I've started doing research on which law school I'd like to attend depending on my LSAT score. I'm retaking if i'ts below 170, I may still retake if I hit that. Anyway, I want to work in NYC one day. I'm pretty firm on that, but I'm willing to live elsewhere for 3 years if I can get into a school that would help me avoid debt (which frankly terrifies me), but still give me a good shot at NYC. That being said, aside from schools in NY such as NYU, Columbia, Cornell, and Fordham, what schools should I be looking it? Right now I'm looking at the NY ones, all the T14 and Vandy because if I hit my target score it seems like they will give me a decent scholarship despite the fact that my GPA will be a 3.3 when I apply. All that being said, are all the schools in the T14 and Vandy portable or are they merely strong in their region and are there any others I should consider? Fordham is probably as low as I would go on the NYC schools simply because all the others seem to have dismal employment ratings and their tuition is still pretty bad when combined with COA.


Leiter did a study on the "most national law schools." It was merely a correlative study. There are all sorts of problems with it. For one: are some schools less national for those schools' top students, or for all its students? Unclear. But the study is still interesting.

But most schools, even in the T-14, are somewhat regional. An associate and a partner on separate occasions told me how surprising it was to him that legal hiring is still mostly regional. It's a function of a couple of things: simple familiarity with a school's grading scale, but most important, connections and geography. How do you get jobs? Often by meeting with people and making connections. You can't fly from Chicago to NYC for weekly coffee with a partner.

If you're not prepared to work in a school's major market, you should probably not go to that school.

eric922
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Re: National schools.

Postby eric922 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:45 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:It's hard to make the case for Fordham for someone with your GPA, because even if you break 170 you aren't likely to get enough scholarship money to make the gamble worthwhile. If you want NYC BigLaw, you'll want to stay within the T-14, and a few schools in it like Duke and Berkeley may be tough regardless of your LSAT score. Chances are the only schools that will throw big scholarships your way are ones with terrible NYC/BigLaw placement, which is why splitters wanting BigLaw tend to be better off going to the highest ranked school. All you can do now get the highest possible LSAT and see what happens.

That's what I was afraid of. So, I take it since you didn't mention Vandy I was correct in assuming Vandy grads don't do well in NYC? I swear my low GPA is killing me. By the time I graduate, I should have a 3.4 if everything goes well, but still. I swear I would be willing to stay in UG and defer graduation another year if I thought raising it would be enough to help me moneywise.
Last edited by eric922 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: National schools.

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:48 pm

eric922 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:It's hard to make the case for Fordham for someone with your GPA, because even if you break 170 you aren't likely to get enough scholarship money to make the gamble worthwhile. If you want NYC BigLaw, you'll want to stay within the T-14, and a few schools in it like Duke and Berkeley may be tough regardless of your LSAT score. Chances are the only schools that will throw big scholarships your way are ones with terrible NYC/BigLaw placement, which is why splitters wanting BigLaw tend to be better off going to the highest ranked school. All you can do now get the highest possible LSAT and see what happens.

That's what I was afraid of. So, I take it since you didn't mention Vandy I was correct in assuming Vandy grads don't do well in NYC?


My impression is that Vandy doesn't do bad in NYC, but you should see if there is a Vandy thread on TLS with 2Ls and 3Ls who can talk about how people shooting for NYC did the past two OCIs and what they thought the necessary GPA/class rank was.

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BruceWayne
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Re: National schools.

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:49 pm

eric922 wrote:That's what I was afraid of. So, I take it since you didn't mention Vandy I was correct in assuming Vandy grads don't do well in NYC?


Don't go to Vanderbilt planning to work in NYC. The school's strength is the South and putting people with high grades into NYC firms.

bhan87
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Re: National schools.

Postby bhan87 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:50 pm

eric922 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:It's hard to make the case for Fordham for someone with your GPA, because even if you break 170 you aren't likely to get enough scholarship money to make the gamble worthwhile. If you want NYC BigLaw, you'll want to stay within the T-14, and a few schools in it like Duke and Berkeley may be tough regardless of your LSAT score. Chances are the only schools that will throw big scholarships your way are ones with terrible NYC/BigLaw placement, which is why splitters wanting BigLaw tend to be better off going to the highest ranked school. All you can do now get the highest possible LSAT and see what happens.

That's what I was afraid of. So, I take it since you didn't mention Vandy I was correct in assuming Vandy grads don't do well in NYC?


http://law.vanderbilt.edu/prospective-s ... index.aspx

Doesn't seem so as only around 10-15% place in NYC each year. I think it's also a stretch to say that the low number is due to self-selection as NYC is the market most bombarded with hail-mary resume drops.

rad lulz
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Re: National schools.

Postby rad lulz » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:50 pm

eric922 wrote:
Tiago Splitter wrote:It's hard to make the case for Fordham for someone with your GPA, because even if you break 170 you aren't likely to get enough scholarship money to make the gamble worthwhile. If you want NYC BigLaw, you'll want to stay within the T-14, and a few schools in it like Duke and Berkeley may be tough regardless of your LSAT score. Chances are the only schools that will throw big scholarships your way are ones with terrible NYC/BigLaw placement, which is why splitters wanting BigLaw tend to be better off going to the highest ranked school. All you can do now get the highest possible LSAT and see what happens.

That's what I was afraid of. So, I take it since you didn't mention Vandy I was correct in assuming Vandy grads don't do well in NYC? I swear my low GPA is killing me. By the time I graduate, I should have a 3.4 if everything goes well, but still. I swear I would be willing to stay in UG and defer graduation another year if I thought raising it would be enough to help me moneywise.

Big firms in NYC generally hire from the upper echelons of the Vandy class.

bhan87
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Re: National schools.

Postby bhan87 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:53 pm

I think your best bet is to gun for Cornell:

http://cornell.lawschoolnumbers.com/app ... ,7&type=jd

You'll need to break 170 at a bare-minimum and even then its still less than a coin-flip. CLS / NYU seem unlikely even with 175+.
Last edited by bhan87 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Tiago Splitter
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Re: National schools.

Postby Tiago Splitter » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:54 pm

eric922 wrote:I swear I would be willing to stay in UG and defer graduation another year if I thought raising it would be enough to help me moneywise.

If it won't cost you much this is the correct strategy. At the very least wait to apply until after you've graduated so that you can get as many A's as possible to get your GPA up over some GPA floors.

bhan87 wrote:CLS / NYU seem unlikely even with 175+

This used to be the case, but it's not true anymore. Plus it sounds like this guy can get the GPA up to at least 3.4 which helps.

eric922
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Re: National schools.

Postby eric922 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:59 pm

Tiago Splitter wrote:
eric922 wrote:I swear I would be willing to stay in UG and defer graduation another year if I thought raising it would be enough to help me moneywise.

If it won't cost you much this is the correct strategy. At the very least wait to apply until after you've graduated so that you can get as many A's as possible to get your GPA up over some GPA floors.

bhan87 wrote:CLS / NYU seem unlikely even with 175+

This used to be the case, but it's not true anymore. Plus it sounds like this guy can get the GPA up to at least 3.4 which helps.

Regarding this. It shouldn't cost me much. I have no UG debt thanks to Scholarships and Pell Grants. I could keep the Pell Grant for another year and my parents would likely be willing to help cover the rest of the cost. On top of that, there's a good chance I could get a job doing basic work in a defense law firm my dad is the PI for which could give me some experience and help me save some money. Does that sound like a decent plan? I would hate to wait another year, but I'm willing to if it helps me get into a better school or get my debt down. It would be foolish to rush into such a big decision.
Last edited by eric922 on Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

eric922
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Re: National schools.

Postby eric922 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 3:12 pm

bhan87 wrote:I think your best bet is to gun for Cornell:

http://cornell.lawschoolnumbers.com/app ... ,7&type=jd

You'll need to break 170 at a bare-minimum and even then its still less than a coin-flip. CLS / NYU seem unlikely even with 175+.

Looking at Cornell, honestly that might be a better choice than even NYU or Columbia even if I somehow managed to get into all 3. The main reason is, I'm guessing the COA of living in Ithaca for 3 years is a lot cheaper than living in NYC for three years and it would still place very good in NYC.

bhan87
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Re: National schools.

Postby bhan87 » Sat Jan 12, 2013 5:30 pm

eric922 wrote:
bhan87 wrote:I think your best bet is to gun for Cornell:

http://cornell.lawschoolnumbers.com/app ... ,7&type=jd

You'll need to break 170 at a bare-minimum and even then its still less than a coin-flip. CLS / NYU seem unlikely even with 175+.

Looking at Cornell, honestly that might be a better choice than even NYU or Columbia even if I somehow managed to get into all 3. The main reason is, I'm guessing the COA of living in Ithaca for 3 years is a lot cheaper than living in NYC for three years and it would still place very good in NYC.


At same cost, CLS / NYU is the better choice. When you're talking law school debt numbers, the rational changes quite a bit.

Cornell COA: $74,680 / year http://www.lawschool.cornell.edu/admiss ... penses.cfm
CLS COA: $79,950 / year http://www.law.columbia.edu/current_stu ... st_billing
NYU COA: $78,112 / year http://www.law.nyu.edu/financialaid/bud ... /index.htm

Of course take the school-reported estimates with a grain of salt, but I personally felt CLS high-balled their COA amount, especially if you live frugally. The extra few thousand in debt is well worth the better odds at finding a job (especially if you want NY):

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=columbia

94.1% of 99.3% reporting employed. 61.5% went into firms with 101 attorneys or more. 9.4% into clerkships and 14.3% into PI / Government.

4.2% Unemployed, Employed Short-Term, Employed Part-Time

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=nyu

89.3% of 99.4% reporting employed. 46.2% went into firms with 101 attorneys or more. 13.5% into clerkships and 24.9% into PI / Government.

5.4% Unemployed, Employed Short-Term, Employed Part-Time

http://www.lstscorereports.com/?school=cornell

76.1% of 97% reporting employed. 38.9% went into firms with 101 attorneys or more. 12.5% into clerkships and 11% into PI / Government.

22.4% Unemployed, Employed Short-Term, Employed Part-Time.

In every metric CLS / NYU is outperforming Cornell significantly enough to justify the added COA imo. Significant scholarship money, of course, changes the calculation.




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