GWU vs Lower T1

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suralin
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Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby suralin » Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:24 pm

icanbeohyes wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
icanbeohyes wrote:
dingbat wrote:if you're barely below, I wouldn't worry too much about it, but if you're significantly below, then, yeah, I agree


I doubt it. For a future lawyer, you are very cynical and degrading, Randolph. I would not deny that there is a possibility of ending up at the bottom of my class, but at the same time I feel like it's rare that people are admitted into schools in which the adcomms think they will do badly. I think I will be fine. I already have connections to students in the school which I can imagine will benefit me.
My LSAT/GPA is not a reflection of my intellectual capability and work ethic.


You have a lot to learn about lawyers. Also what evidence do you have that your LSAT/GPA is "not a reflection of my intellectual capability and work ethic" relative to the people who did get into GWU with higher scores?


I don't need to prove anything to you.


Lol.

GWU is a pretty bad choice if you're not IP, but it's probably the least suckiest of the schools you've so far been admitted to. I'd still recommend a retake, particularly since your URM status will make getting into the T14 just a few points away and since you want corporate law (aka BigLaw).

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bluepenguin
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Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby bluepenguin » Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:29 pm

icanbeohyes wrote:How would a pre-med postbac help? Especially if I am uninterested in medicine, math and science.


It wouldn't dude. I was just saying if I had that kind of money I would spend it doing something with overwhelmingly good outcomes, rather than a GW degree with a tiny chance of a really good outcome and a substantial likelihood of disaster.


It's your decision to make, just don't blind yourself to the reality. Students below both 25th percentiles that the admissions committee deem worthy are substantially more likely to end up below median, even though I bet every one of them has that whole 'drive/determination/intelligence' thing.

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dingbat
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Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby dingbat » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:05 pm

icanbeohyes wrote:For a future lawyer, you are very cynical and degrading

I understand this wasn't directed at me, but, being cynical is a very important trait in a lawyer

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Fri Jan 11, 2013 8:27 pm

icanbeohyes wrote:My LSAT/GPA is not a reflection of my intellectual capability and work ethic.


This is an annoying sentiment.

You have had two opportunities to show your academic intellectual capability and work ethic, you didn't do so hot in either respect.

If you can't commit to doing well in undergrad or learning a very learnable test, then what other comparative measure does a law school have to judge you by?

Nvm, not trying to get into it, just be realistic. Retake and apply to the T14. The posters above are correct re: your URM chances with a moderate LSAT increase.

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dingbat
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Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby dingbat » Fri Jan 11, 2013 9:10 pm

icanbeohyes wrote:My LSAT/GPA is not a reflection of my intellectual capability and work ethic.
It's an indication that you have not proven your intellectual capability and work ethic to be above a certain threshold.

Look at it this way. No one believes you if you say you can solve a rubik's cube, but do it in front of them and everyone will be impressed (damn, I wish I remembered how to do it)

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somewhatwayward
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Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby somewhatwayward » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:12 pm

icanbeohyes wrote:
dingbat wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:if you are below both 25s you're probably going to get rocked at GW and finish at the very bottom of the class, jobless, having wasted your dads money

if you're barely below, I wouldn't worry too much about it, but if you're significantly below, then, yeah, I agree


I doubt it. For a future lawyer, you are very cynical and degrading, Randolph. I would not deny that there is a possibility of ending up at the bottom of my class, but at the same time I feel like it's rare that people are admitted into schools in which the adcomms think they will do badly. I think I will be fine. I already have connections to students in the school which I can imagine will benefit me.
My LSAT/GPA is not a reflection of my intellectual capability and work ethic.


Someone has to be at the bottom of the class, so obviously the adcomms admit people who do badly (not that I am saying you will). I assume what you mean is that adcomms don't admit people who can't handle the work. That is true in one sense bc legal material is just not that hard. What makes it hard is the curve, the fact that every single person in a class can turn in a good exam, and some will have to get the lowest grade assigned on the curve (usually a B- or maybe a C+ at T1s). I have no doubt that you are capable of handling the difficulty of the material in law school. The issue is whether you can beat out the other smart motivated people in your class.

I do think that for URMs the smart move is definitely to go T14. The reason is because URMs are at a disproportionate risk of landing lower in their class grade-wise, and T14s, especially T6s, provide better opportunities to people in the bottom half of the class. A study done at UMich Law, for example, found that 80% of AA students were in the bottom 30% of the class but that they were as successful in their careers as their non-URM classmates. The T14 route makes sense for your situation especially because you aren't taking out loans so sticker price isn't as risky, and you said you are interested in corporate law, and no schools outside the T14 give you more than a 30% chance of landing corporate law.

You said somewhere in this thread that you don't think 2-3 points can matter, but they can matter A LOT. You have already put in a lot of leg work taking the LSAT 3x, which is commendable, so don't stop now! Good luck!

icanbeohyes wrote:He has been very upfront about his fellow peers who are unable to receive work or get work at low pay $55-$70k.


I have to make a major correction here. The 1/3 of GWU graduates who are unemployed or being paid by the school would kill to be making $55K. They'd actually kill to be making anything. Only 33% of GWU's graduates reported a salary (troublingly low since people with high salaries normally report them), and of those 33%, the 25th percentile salary was $65K. In order words, 65K is the 75th percentile of recent GWU graduate salaries - ie, 75% of the class is making less than $65K, and a third (the 20% unemployed + the 15% employed by the school) probably aren't breaking $40K.

umichgrad
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Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby umichgrad » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:13 pm

Totally anecdotal, but I love GW and think it has been an excellent experience. The professors I've had have been incredible, and the opportunities to intern during the semester (or work part-time) are really great if you take advantage of them. I have a job out of state after graduation, and about half my friends have employment offers. The other half are actively interviewing for public interest / government / clerkships. It's definitely not all doom and gloom.

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Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby icanbeohyes » Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:35 am

John_rizzy_rawls wrote:
icanbeohyes wrote:My LSAT/GPA is not a reflection of my intellectual capability and work ethic.


This is an annoying sentiment.

You have had two opportunities to show your academic intellectual capability and work ethic, you didn't do so hot in either respect.

If you can't commit to doing well in undergrad or learning a very learnable test, then what other comparative measure does a law school have to judge you by?

Nvm, not trying to get into it, just be realistic. Retake and apply to the T14. The posters above are correct re: your URM chances with a moderate LSAT increase.


I understand that you feel I have not displayed my work ethic, but you do not necessarily know the circumstances in which I have achieved my stats nor the work I have put in to get there. I completely understand that to people who have 3.9+ and 17x+, those with anything lower seems like the person never gave a hoot about their work. But, I assure you I worked damn hard to be where I am and in this position. I have retaken the LSAT 3 times and probably have spent over $5k preparing for the exam in any way I possibly could. (private tutors, LSAT classes, powerscore bibles, group study, 2-3 months of personal studying with old exams). I was PT-ing at 10 points above my actual score. Because of this, I have considering retaking a 4th time but I don't know if it's a smart investment. I dragged myself up out of a situation in my undergrad career that most people would not have been able to handle.

In no way am I offended by your assumption because if I were you, I would judge me too. However, not everything is as black and white as it may seem. We are all different people that come from different situations in life and the circumstances that shape us often can play a role in our success.

That is ALL I will respond to about my GPA/LSAT.

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dingbat
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Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby dingbat » Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:39 am

icanbeohyes wrote:I understand that you feel I have not displayed my work ethic, but you do not necessarily know the circumstances in which I have achieved my stats nor the work I have put in to get there. I completely understand that to people who have 3.9+ and 17x+, those with anything lower seems like the person never gave a hoot about their work. But, I assure you I worked damn hard to be where I am and in this position. I have retaken the LSAT 3 times and probably have spent over $5k preparing for the exam in any way I possibly could. (private tutors, LSAT classes, powerscore bibles, group study, 2-3 months of personal studying with old exams). I was PT-ing at 10 points above my actual score. Because of this, I have considering retaking a 4th time but I don't know if it's a smart investment. I dragged myself up out of a situation in my undergrad career that most people would not have been able to handle.

Good for you. Unfortunately, an adcom doesn't know all that (and probably doesn't care). All they know is the GPA and LSAT that you have. It's easy to say you're smart enough and hardworking enough to succeed, but, anyone can say that. The only* way you can show them is by having strong numbers
*or having an exceptional resume, personal statement and letters of recommendation, but that's a lot less persuasive

icanbeohyes
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Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby icanbeohyes » Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:45 am

somewhatwayward wrote:
icanbeohyes wrote:
dingbat wrote:
Lord Randolph McDuff wrote:if you are below both 25s you're probably going to get rocked at GW and finish at the very bottom of the class, jobless, having wasted your dads money

if you're barely below, I wouldn't worry too much about it, but if you're significantly below, then, yeah, I agree


I doubt it. For a future lawyer, you are very cynical and degrading, Randolph. I would not deny that there is a possibility of ending up at the bottom of my class, but at the same time I feel like it's rare that people are admitted into schools in which the adcomms think they will do badly. I think I will be fine. I already have connections to students in the school which I can imagine will benefit me.
My LSAT/GPA is not a reflection of my intellectual capability and work ethic.


Someone has to be at the bottom of the class, so obviously the adcomms admit people who do badly (not that I am saying you will). I assume what you mean is that adcomms don't admit people who can't handle the work. That is true in one sense bc legal material is just not that hard. What makes it hard is the curve, the fact that every single person in a class can turn in a good exam, and some will have to get the lowest grade assigned on the curve (usually a B- or maybe a C+ at T1s). I have no doubt that you are capable of handling the difficulty of the material in law school. The issue is whether you can beat out the other smart motivated people in your class.

I do think that for URMs the smart move is definitely to go T14. The reason is because URMs are at a disproportionate risk of landing lower in their class grade-wise, and T14s, especially T6s, provide better opportunities to people in the bottom half of the class. A study done at UMich Law, for example, found that 80% of AA students were in the bottom 30% of the class but that they were as successful in their careers as their non-URM classmates. The T14 route makes sense for your situation especially because you aren't taking out loans so sticker price isn't as risky, and you said you are interested in corporate law, and no schools outside the T14 give you more than a 30% chance of landing corporate law.

You said somewhere in this thread that you don't think 2-3 points can matter, but they can matter A LOT. You have already put in a lot of leg work taking the LSAT 3x, which is commendable, so don't stop now! Good luck!


Once again, I am taking this under heavy consideration. I appreciate your non-negative approach.



icanbeohyes wrote:He has been very upfront about his fellow peers who are unable to receive work or get work at low pay $55-$70k.


I have to make a major correction here. The 1/3 of GWU graduates who are unemployed or being paid by the school would kill to be making $55K. They'd actually kill to be making anything. Only 33% of GWU's graduates reported a salary (troublingly low since people with high salaries normally report them), and of those 33%, the 25th percentile salary was $65K. In order words, 65K is the 75th percentile of recent GWU graduate salaries - ie, 75% of the class is making less than $65K, and a third (the 20% unemployed + the 15% employed by the school) probably aren't breaking $40K.



As you've said, T-14 is the way to go and anything outside is about a 30% chance and an even lower chance for URMS. I understand the premise.

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Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby icanbeohyes » Sat Jan 12, 2013 12:46 am

dingbat wrote:
icanbeohyes wrote:I understand that you feel I have not displayed my work ethic, but you do not necessarily know the circumstances in which I have achieved my stats nor the work I have put in to get there. I completely understand that to people who have 3.9+ and 17x+, those with anything lower seems like the person never gave a hoot about their work. But, I assure you I worked damn hard to be where I am and in this position. I have retaken the LSAT 3 times and probably have spent over $5k preparing for the exam in any way I possibly could. (private tutors, LSAT classes, powerscore bibles, group study, 2-3 months of personal studying with old exams). I was PT-ing at 10 points above my actual score. Because of this, I have considering retaking a 4th time but I don't know if it's a smart investment. I dragged myself up out of a situation in my undergrad career that most people would not have been able to handle.

Good for you. Unfortunately, an adcom doesn't know all that (and probably doesn't care). All they know is the GPA and LSAT that you have. It's easy to say you're smart enough and hardworking enough to succeed, but, anyone can say that. The only* way you can show them is by having strong numbers
*or having an exceptional resume, personal statement and letters of recommendation, but that's a lot less persuasive


Unfortunately dingbat, it doesn't matter. I have put in the work I need and have not been expecting any T-14 offers. If I decide to retake and score higher, then this statement would be relevant. Right now, I'm working with what I have and the admissions cycle has yet to end.

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John_rizzy_rawls
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Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby John_rizzy_rawls » Sat Jan 12, 2013 2:48 am

icanbeohyes wrote:
John_rizzy_rawls wrote:
icanbeohyes wrote:My LSAT/GPA is not a reflection of my intellectual capability and work ethic.


This is an annoying sentiment.

You have had two opportunities to show your academic intellectual capability and work ethic, you didn't do so hot in either respect.

If you can't commit to doing well in undergrad or learning a very learnable test, then what other comparative measure does a law school have to judge you by?

Nvm, not trying to get into it, just be realistic. Retake and apply to the T14. The posters above are correct re: your URM chances with a moderate LSAT increase.


I understand that you feel I have not displayed my work ethic, but you do not necessarily know the circumstances in which I have achieved my stats nor the work I have put in to get there. I completely understand that to people who have 3.9+ and 17x+, those with anything lower seems like the person never gave a hoot about their work. But, I assure you I worked damn hard to be where I am and in this position. I have retaken the LSAT 3 times and probably have spent over $5k preparing for the exam in any way I possibly could. (private tutors, LSAT classes, powerscore bibles, group study, 2-3 months of personal studying with old exams). I was PT-ing at 10 points above my actual score. Because of this, I have considering retaking a 4th time but I don't know if it's a smart investment. I dragged myself up out of a situation in my undergrad career that most people would not have been able to handle.

In no way am I offended by your assumption because if I were you, I would judge me too. However, not everything is as black and white as it may seem. We are all different people that come from different situations in life and the circumstances that shape us often can play a role in our success.

That is ALL I will respond to about my GPA/LSAT.


Fair enough. Best of luck to you.

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somewhatwayward
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Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby somewhatwayward » Sat Jan 12, 2013 10:26 am

I probably shouldn't have led with all that stuff about the LSAT. The most important thing for you to pay attn to is pasted below bc your comment that lowly-paid people at GWU will make $55K-70K shows that your expectations don't accurately reflect the outcomes at GWU. I apologize if you already read this in detail but I assume it got buried at the end of my diatribe about the LSAT:

me wrote:I have to make a major correction here. The 1/3 of GWU graduates who are unemployed or being paid by the school would kill to be making $55K. They'd actually kill to be making anything. Only 33% of GWU's graduates reported a salary (troublingly low since people with high salaries normally report them), and of those 33%, the 25th percentile salary was $65K. In order words, 65K is the 75th percentile of recent GWU graduate salaries - ie, 75% of the class is making less than $65K, and a third (the 20% unemployed + the 15% employed by the school) probably aren't breaking $40K.

icanbeohyes
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Re: GWU vs Lower T1

Postby icanbeohyes » Sat Jan 12, 2013 1:12 pm

somewhatwayward wrote:I probably shouldn't have led with all that stuff about the LSAT. The most important thing for you to pay attn to is pasted below bc your comment that lowly-paid people at GWU will make $55K-70K shows that your expectations don't accurately reflect the outcomes at GWU. I apologize if you already read this in detail but I assume it got buried at the end of my diatribe about the LSAT:

me wrote:I have to make a major correction here. The 1/3 of GWU graduates who are unemployed or being paid by the school would kill to be making $55K. They'd actually kill to be making anything. Only 33% of GWU's graduates reported a salary (troublingly low since people with high salaries normally report them), and of those 33%, the 25th percentile salary was $65K. In order words, 65K is the 75th percentile of recent GWU graduate salaries - ie, 75% of the class is making less than $65K, and a third (the 20% unemployed + the 15% employed by the school) probably aren't breaking $40K.


Okay, this is a bit off topic but the only schools I assume I have a 30%-50% chance at that I'm left waiting for are Emory, WUSTL, BU, UF, W&M and Wake Forest. [The schools I have actually gotten into are stated in the original post]

(There are other schools, but they are all in the T-14)

A bit of background: I am from Florida and I would like to be able to move back there at some point, but not in the early stages of my career. So I'm obviously looking for the school that is the most portable and gives me the best job opportunities. I don't care about where I have to go to school as long as I'm not stuck there.

Assuming I got accepted to most/all of these, which would be better deal in comparison to GWU.

Please keep in mind, I may retake in October and reapply with my fourth LSAT score. But, with these circumstances, I would like to know what would be the better option. From comparisons on LST, they are all about the same. GWU may have 15% school funded, but all these schools have about 50% employment. So wouldn't GWU be the best option I have if I indeed (and most likely) get shut out of the T-14/


Edit: **I am able to fund my legal education and I have yet to receive scholarship info from most the schools**




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